Tea Party Duplicity on the Debt Deal

[BDBoop]

Yes. Thank you. My point exactly. Something I hope that dumbass Bachmann will be hammered on.

Come on Geaux! You try and pass yourself off as someone of intellect and then you agree with an absolutely idiotic and completely incorrect statement? Get it together...

Thanks for the Neg Rep. Between this highly intellectual post and that whooping -9 points, I really learned my lesson.

Exactly.

 

[Oldstyle]

S&P said if we didn't raise the debt ceiling, they would have lowered our credit rating to a D. The lowest of the low, even lower than Greece. Anyone who argued for us to not raise the debt ceiling and then point to the S&P downgrade as proof have no understanding of economics whatsoever.

I'm sorry, Modbert but it's you that doesn't understand how the rating system works. First of all S&P wouldn't have lowered our credit rating to a D if we didn't raise the debt ceiling. They would have only done that if we defaulted on our bonds. That's an automatic thing. Since we had plenty of money coming in to cover paying our bond debts that was never an issue and anyone who tried to make it one was simply blowing smoke up your skirt.

The reason that we were downgraded was that S&P didn't think we had addressed our deficit spending problem adequately. They were looking for 4 trillion in deficit cuts...we did less than half that and those cuts aren't even specified, which led S&P to further warn that they might downgrade us even more if the proposed cuts weren't carried out by Congress.

They also wanted provisions for additional revenue. If you doubt that, you can search this thread for my post on it (use the search function) as I am tired of cutting and pasting the same blurbs from the report into threads for people who either haven't read the report, are functionally illiterate, or just dishonest.

As for the D, the ratings companies aren't gong to wait for us to default for them to downgrade for defaulting. They are in the business of predicting and mitigating risk. The whole "we would have defaulted we would not have defaulted" debate is asinine.

That's exactly what I mean when I say "playing financial chicken".

Would you have wanted to have found out the hard way in the first week of August that you were wrong?

The rating companies are indeed going to wait for us to default on our bonds before they would downgrade us to a D. What part of that concept don't you grasp? If you default on your bonds you get the automatic D. Simply not increasing the debt ceiling would not have brought about an automatic D. What's "asinine" are people like you and your friend who don't understand what was happening with the ratings in the first place.

 

[Oldstyle]

Yes. Thank you. My point exactly. Something I hope that dumbass Bachmann will be hammered on.

Come on Geaux! You try and pass yourself off as someone of intellect and then you agree with an absolutely idiotic and completely incorrect statement? Get it together...

Thanks for the Neg Rep. Between this highly intellectual post and that whooping -9 points, I really learned my lesson.

Did you really expect to be rewarded for knowing nothing about a subject and posting like you did? Sorry if I've insulted you somehow. The fact is you were about as wrong on a topic as you possibly could be. But rather than admit that...you chose to whine about getting some negative rep.

 

[Modbert]

I'm sorry, Modbert but it's you that doesn't understand how the rating system works. First of all S&P wouldn't have lowered our credit rating to a D if we didn't raise the debt ceiling. They would have only done that if we defaulted on our bonds. That's an automatic thing. Since we had plenty of money coming in to cover paying our bond debts that was never an issue and anyone who tried to make it one was simply blowing smoke up your skirt.

The reason that we were downgraded was that S&P didn't think we had addressed our deficit spending problem adequately. They were looking for 4 trillion in deficit cuts...we did less than half that and those cuts aren't even specified, which led S&P to further warn that they might downgrade us even more if the proposed cuts weren't carried out by Congress.

S&P Would Lower U.S. Credit Rating to D on Failure to Increase Debt Limit - Bloomberg

Standard & Poor’s would cut the U.S. credit rating to its lowest level and Moody’s Investors Service said it will probably reduce its ranking if the government fails to increase the debt limit, leading to a default.

S&P would lower its sovereign top-level AAA ranking to D, the last rung on its scale if the U.S. can’t pay its debt, John Chambers, chairman of the company’s sovereign rating committee, said today. Moody’s said it would probably assign a position in the Aa range, or within three steps of its highest level.

 

[geauxtohell]

Come on Geaux! You try and pass yourself off as someone of intellect and then you agree with an absolutely idiotic and completely incorrect statement? Get it together...

Thanks for the Neg Rep. Between this highly intellectual post and that whooping -9 points, I really learned my lesson.

Did you really expect to be rewarded for knowing nothing about a subject and posting like you did? Sorry if I've insulted you somehow. The fact is you were about as wrong on a topic as you possibly could be. But rather than admit that...you chose to whine about getting some negative rep.

You didn't insult me. Lighten up, Francis.

And kindly respond to my rebuttal when you get a chance.

 

[Oldstyle]

I'm sorry, Modbert but it's you that doesn't understand how the rating system works. First of all S&P wouldn't have lowered our credit rating to a D if we didn't raise the debt ceiling. They would have only done that if we defaulted on our bonds. That's an automatic thing. Since we had plenty of money coming in to cover paying our bond debts that was never an issue and anyone who tried to make it one was simply blowing smoke up your skirt.

The reason that we were downgraded was that S&P didn't think we had addressed our deficit spending problem adequately. They were looking for 4 trillion in deficit cuts...we did less than half that and those cuts aren't even specified, which led S&P to further warn that they might downgrade us even more if the proposed cuts weren't carried out by Congress.

S&P Would Lower U.S. Credit Rating to D on Failure to Increase Debt Limit - Bloomberg

Standard & Poor’s would cut the U.S. credit rating to its lowest level and Moody’s Investors Service said it will probably reduce its ranking if the government fails to increase the debt limit, leading to a default.

S&P would lower its sovereign top-level AAA ranking to D, the last rung on its scale if the U.S. can’t pay its debt, John Chambers, chairman of the company’s sovereign rating committee, said today. Moody’s said it would probably assign a position in the Aa range, or within three steps of its highest level.

LOL...you really aren't very bright, Modbert. Failing to increase the debt limit would not have brought about a D rating...FAILING TO PAY OUR BOND DEBT WOULD!!! Now you can quote other idiots who are just as confused as you are about how this process works but it won't change reality.

 

[geauxtohell]

I'm sorry, Modbert but it's you that doesn't understand how the rating system works. First of all S&P wouldn't have lowered our credit rating to a D if we didn't raise the debt ceiling. They would have only done that if we defaulted on our bonds. That's an automatic thing. Since we had plenty of money coming in to cover paying our bond debts that was never an issue and anyone who tried to make it one was simply blowing smoke up your skirt.

The reason that we were downgraded was that S&P didn't think we had addressed our deficit spending problem adequately. They were looking for 4 trillion in deficit cuts...we did less than half that and those cuts aren't even specified, which led S&P to further warn that they might downgrade us even more if the proposed cuts weren't carried out by Congress.

S&P Would Lower U.S. Credit Rating to D on Failure to Increase Debt Limit - Bloomberg

Standard & Poor’s would cut the U.S. credit rating to its lowest level and Moody’s Investors Service said it will probably reduce its ranking if the government fails to increase the debt limit, leading to a default.

S&P would lower its sovereign top-level AAA ranking to D, the last rung on its scale if the U.S. can’t pay its debt, John Chambers, chairman of the company’s sovereign rating committee, said today. Moody’s said it would probably assign a position in the Aa range, or within three steps of its highest level.

But duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuddddddddddddddddddeeeeeeeeee. We could have totally paid our debt!

Or not, in which case, it would still be Obummer's fault man!

 

[Modbert]

LOL...you really aren't very bright, Modbert. Failing to increase the debt limit would not have brought about a D rating...FAILING TO PAY OUR BOND DEBT WOULD!!! Now you can quote other idiots who are just as confused as you are about how this process works but it won't change reality.

Not raising the debt ceiling would have eventually resulted in default. Therefore not raising the debt ceiling would have been a very stupid thing to do. While you seem so sure of yourself that we would have enough money to keep that from happening, a lot of experts weren't. I'm not willing to risk the economy from complete collapse because you want to prove a partisan point.

 

[Modbert]

But duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuddddddddddddddddddeeeeeeeeee. We could have totally paid our debt!

Or not, in which case, it would still be Obummer's fault man!

It would have been a fantastic idea to stiff China on our financial obligations. Goes something like this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ydqjqZ_3oc]good fellas - YouTube[/ame]

 

[geauxtohell]

LOL...you really aren't very bright, Modbert. Failing to increase the debt limit would not have brought about a D rating...FAILING TO PAY OUR BOND DEBT WOULD!!! Now you can quote other idiots who are just as confused as you are about how this process works but it won't change reality.

You are under the mistaken assumption that we are simply going to take your opinion on the matter as the gospel and if you simply toss out hyperbole and insist we are wrong, we are going to change our opinion.

Even if we could have covered our short term debt, not raising the debt ceiling would have been viewed as an act of bad faith and we would have gotten hit harder on the downgrade (even if not all the way to a D). It also would have resulted in another immediate conflict over this in the near future.

And you damn well know it. If you don't, you shouldn't insult other people's intelligence.

 

[geauxtohell]

But duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuddddddddddddddddddeeeeeeeeee. We could have totally paid our debt!

Or not, in which case, it would still be Obummer's fault man!

It would have been a fantastic idea to stiff China on our financial obligations. Goes something like this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ydqjqZ_3oc]good fellas - YouTube[/ame]

Great analogy.

BTW, would that be the same China that financed our adventures in Iraq? You know, the adventure that the newly converted fiscal conservatives were so in support of.

"Gotta get them there before they get us here!"

 

[Modbert]

Great analogy.

BTW, would that be the same China that financed our adventures in Iraq? You know, the adventure that the newly converted fiscal conservatives were so in support of.

"Gotta get them there before they get us here!"

It would be. The same China that now has extended it's own sphere of influence into the Middle East. Especially with Pakistan, whom it has a close relationship with.

 

[Oldstyle]

LOL...you really aren't very bright, Modbert. Failing to increase the debt limit would not have brought about a D rating...FAILING TO PAY OUR BOND DEBT WOULD!!! Now you can quote other idiots who are just as confused as you are about how this process works but it won't change reality.

Not raising the debt ceiling would have eventually resulted in default. Therefore not raising the debt ceiling would have been a very stupid thing to do. While you seem so sure of yourself that we would have enough money to keep that from happening, a lot of experts weren't. I'm not willing to risk the economy from complete collapse because you want to prove a partisan point.

Which "expert" was it that said we wouldn't have enough money coming in to pay our bond debt? I'd love to see you produce one. The only way THAT would happen was if a conscious decision was made by this Administration to use the money we have coming in for other things. THAT would have been a "very stupid thing to do". And my point isn't "partisan"...it's reality.

 

[geauxtohell]

LOL...you really aren't very bright, Modbert. Failing to increase the debt limit would not have brought about a D rating...FAILING TO PAY OUR BOND DEBT WOULD!!! Now you can quote other idiots who are just as confused as you are about how this process works but it won't change reality.

Not raising the debt ceiling would have eventually resulted in default. Therefore not raising the debt ceiling would have been a very stupid thing to do. While you seem so sure of yourself that we would have enough money to keep that from happening, a lot of experts weren't. I'm not willing to risk the economy from complete collapse because you want to prove a partisan point.

"Financial Chicken"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI8ciuj3QHg]death proof- car crash scene - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Modbert]

Which "expert" was it that said we wouldn't have enough money coming in to pay our bond debt? I'd love to see you produce one. The only way THAT would happen was if a conscious decision was made by this Administration to use the money we have coming in for other things. THAT would have been a "very stupid thing to do". And my point isn't "partisan"...it's reality.

No, your point is partisan. Considering you offered up no evidence of your own and seem to refuse to believe any that we give, I don't see the point of digging up more. Not raising the debt ceiling would have been a very bad idea, believing otherwise just shows a ignorance of economics.

 

[geauxtohell]

Great analogy.

BTW, would that be the same China that financed our adventures in Iraq? You know, the adventure that the newly converted fiscal conservatives were so in support of.

"Gotta get them there before they get us here!"

It would be. The same China that now has extended it's own sphere of influence into the Middle East. Especially with Pakistan, whom it has a close relationship with.

Wow. It's like our whole Iraq adventure greatly improved the position of China and Iran.

But I digress.

 

[Oldstyle]

LOL...you really aren't very bright, Modbert. Failing to increase the debt limit would not have brought about a D rating...FAILING TO PAY OUR BOND DEBT WOULD!!! Now you can quote other idiots who are just as confused as you are about how this process works but it won't change reality.

You are under the mistaken assumption that we are simply going to take your opinion on the matter as the gospel and if you simply toss out hyperbole and insist we are wrong, we are going to change our opinion.

Even if we could have covered our short term debt, not raising the debt ceiling would have been viewed as an act of bad faith and we would have gotten hit harder on the downgrade (even if not all the way to a D). It also would have resulted in another immediate conflict over this in the near future.

And you damn well know it. If you don't, you shouldn't insult other people's intelligence.

So you've retreated from your claim that not voting for an increase in the debt ceiling would have resulted in a D credit rating? It sure appears that way to me. Good that we've got that straightened out.

As for what is considered "an act of bad faith"? If you read the S&P report it's quite apparent that they have reservations about the trustworthiness of Congress and this President to make good on even the small deficit cuts that were passed but not specified.

And my insult to your intelligence was brought on by a REALLY ignorant post by yourself. I'm sorry if you didn't like being called on it but it is what it is.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The debt crisis was precipitated by the failure of Democrats to accept basically the same bill six months earlier. That is fact. Also, when progress was starting to be made the week before the deadline, Obama suddenly wants MORE tax increases. Again, a Democratic failure of epic proportion.

Or the fact that we have gone almost 900 days without the dems proposing a federal spending budget.......that was a HUGE factor in S&P's decision to downgrade us.

Why didn't the original post mention this fact too? Its almost like it was a partisan opening post

 

[Trajan]

why didn't Fitch ( who has just re-affirmed our AAA Bond rating btw Fitch affirms U.S. at AAA, outlook stable - Yahoo! News)
and Moddys downgrade us?

LOL. Did you take the time to actually read my post, Trajan? I only ask because I noted that Fitch just reaffirmed our AAA rating and also provided a link about it (maybe even the same link).

my bad, I blew right by it, apologies.

To answer your question, I think the S&P downgrade was somewhat bullshit and certainly politically driven to an extent (regardless of their insistence that it wasn't). The fact that they did it after being notified of a 2 trillion dollar error that they acknowledged indicates to me that they were more interested in sending a message. That being said, I am not an economist, and I don't even pretend that I am very knowledgeable on economics (on the level of Toro for example).

presto chango, exactly.
this is exactly why I give them short shrift, and using them as an example to pivot off is *shrugs*


you said-

As much as they would like to claim otherwise, the Teaparty certainly doesn't have any high ground on the issue. No so ironically, if the teaparty had gotten their way and not raised the debt ceiling, the downgrades would have been much worse.

Well that is your opinion, balanced against everyone’s parties of all stripes jockeying for position what ‘high ground ‘ is there to be had?

We just agreed (?) that S%&P really isn’t the go to on the topic or issue, the TP was IMHO ready to watch the debt ceiling date go by BUT the hostage (using the medias vernacular ) they would not shoot was DEFAULT, where the real danger lie(lay lied laid whatever) , as the 2 out of 3 didn't lower the rating how do you know the downgrades or actions of Fitch Moodys would have been worse?

Taking S&P at their word they would have dropped us to an D…..fine BUT, looking below at your verbiage, you do believe that there was a difference in outlook, so if we had gone past the debt ceiling drop dead date but NOT defaulted, you are sure that fitch and moodys would have downgraded us?

I think Fitch and Moody's rating probably reflects our actual standing and is more quantitative. But that is just my opinion.
I think the compromise saved our rating with Fitch and Moody and from a further downgrade by the S&P. I've yet to hear any of the experts say that not raising the debt ceiling would have been "no big deal". To the contrary, I've heard that it would be deemed as an act of bad faith that would have reflected on our fiscal standing.

and who has proved they have the necessary were with all and maturity?

You aren't going to like this, but I think Obama has. I think he got how bad it would have been if August 2nd passed without raising the ceiling (and he further realized that the Dems had failed to get this done while they had power for two years) and basically caved on a deal that was heavily stacked in the GOP's favor.

My like has zip to do with it.
Answering the above and below together, you are making an argument in mitigation.

The house being rigid or not have little effect on what his duties or choices are, what he can or cannot do, he himself said he had a plan yet despite requests to see it, no one has. I am aware he doesn’t hold the purse strings, BUT just as he is REQUIRED to submit a plan to scoring which then goes to the house every year for the budget process in Feb. and as every other pres. at one time or another has, he is always able to submit a plan to the house or senate for consideration. Rigidity and machinations, you are aware that Reid filibustered his own bill? And more club for growth ‘old reps’ ( see country club) voted against the bill than the TP did?

If the deck was stacked in the GOP’s favor and he was the mature one taking a deal because he just could not risk the countries rating, why then did Clinton come out smelling like a rose? A- Because, Clinton is a politician. Obama seems to have not been able to effectively manage the situation which as you inferred is at least partly due to his own making ala having a 2 year window, BUT we both know and I have shown, he and reid knew exactly what they were doing as to not discussing this debt ceiling in April nor December OR before they lost the house, this was meant to run down to the wire, he miscalculated……..and you do know that Boehner was going to say that not matter what he would up walking away with minus a complete shellacking, what do you expect him to say?

Anyway maturity was a word you used, I piggybacked on, when apparently to me at least the better word is ‘competence’ as in lack there of.

It seems to me the most powerful man in Dem. party right now is; Harry Reid- NOT Barak Obama. He was MIA and consigned himself to the fringes, popping in here and there, just where he wanted to be, leading from behind , ready to swoop in and take credit yet not to close to get dirty if it blew up.... so, I find it strange you mention 'leadership' without touching on the C in C etc. .

The President doesn't control the purse strings. He can only sign what comes across his desk. Sure he can lobby for his own position, but the GOP has the house and a significant portion of that house is part of a caucus that is ideologically rigid. I think Reid is good at the backroom deal, but I think the GOP came out ahead on this compromise. That's why Boehner said they got 98% of what they wanted on the thing.

 

[geauxtohell]

LOL...you really aren't very bright, Modbert. Failing to increase the debt limit would not have brought about a D rating...FAILING TO PAY OUR BOND DEBT WOULD!!! Now you can quote other idiots who are just as confused as you are about how this process works but it won't change reality.

You are under the mistaken assumption that we are simply going to take your opinion on the matter as the gospel and if you simply toss out hyperbole and insist we are wrong, we are going to change our opinion.

Even if we could have covered our short term debt, not raising the debt ceiling would have been viewed as an act of bad faith and we would have gotten hit harder on the downgrade (even if not all the way to a D). It also would have resulted in another immediate conflict over this in the near future.

And you damn well know it. If you don't, you shouldn't insult other people's intelligence.

So you've retreated from your claim that not voting for an increase in the debt ceiling would have resulted in a D credit rating? It sure appears that way to me. Good that we've got that straightened out.

As for what is considered "an act of bad faith"? If you read the S&P report it's quite apparent that they have reservations about the trustworthiness of Congress and this President to make good on even the small deficit cuts that were passed but not specified.

And my insult to your intelligence was brought on by a REALLY ignorant post by yourself. I'm sorry if you didn't like being called on it but it is what it is.

And also to raise revenue.

I am not backing off the "D" comment. This article lays it out pretty nicely:

Six consequences of not raising the debt ceiling -- GovExec.com

So if we assume those are our six options to avoid default and seeing the cluster fuck that was the negotiations for the compromise, I am not confident that 1 or 3 would be accomplished. I am also not confident that it wouldn't have resulted in default. The second that happened, automatic "D" baby.

You seem to be confident that it wouldn't have resulted in a default. Fine. Neither of us can say with 100% confidence that we are right. The only result would have been to let it rip and see what happens.

"Financial Chicken".

Completely stupid.