Supreme Court Rules 7-2 on Obamacare

I would argue against eliminating health insurance as business expense for several reasons:

Providing healthcare insurance is a business operating expense, just like all other government required expenses and should remain deductible. If employers could not deduct the cost of providing healthcare insurance they would either eliminate their contribution to the employees healthcare plan or they would drop health insurance all to together.

Forcing millions of people to buy their health insurance without the financial support of employers which is typically 50% and without a negotiated employer contract or group contract would make insurance much more expensive for employees. The only way to lower the premiums would be goverment subsidies. This would in effect transfer the employers cost to the goverment.

The fact is employers would love to get rid the burden of providing health insurance because the heath insurance expense is just a a deduction from revenue for most businesses, not at tax credit. Only very small employers can claim a tax credit which is limited to 50% of the premium. What this means is employers would have greater profits without having to provide health insurance.
During the war [WWII], wages were capped by the federal government, so employers needed another means to entice and keep employees. The incentive they decided on were benefits like health insurance. These health benefits packages were not considered a part of employees’ wages and the employers could deduct what they spent on these benefits packages from their corporate taxes. A win-win situation!

There are reasons that what had begun as an employment perquisite of little value - an employer picking up the then negligible tab for an employee's medical insurance - has grown to become a monumentally expensive and inefficient method of covering Americans.

There is nothing unique about Americans employed by businesses administering health insurance plans needing health insurance. All Americans are subject to the risk of incurring medical expenses, sometimes ruinously high. There is no rationale for subjecting Americans who are between jobs, for whatever reason, to the potential of devastating loss if a family member should incur substantial medical expenses during such an hiatus.

The need for businesses to divert a portion of their operations to administer such plans is only one unnecessary imposition. The expectancy of an American to have his health insurance provided by an employer is a barrier to enterprise, one more impediment to potential start-ups, and an incentive to remain with a company out of fear of losing coverage rather than progressing in one's career. It was a coercive measure calculated to keep employees in their place during wartime.

Differentiating Americans working for companies who administer healthcare plans from other Americans is counter to the economic advantage of economy of scale, administrative functions assumed by the employer being repeatedly duplicated by every employer rather than all Americans, employed or otherwise, being under a single plan that minimizes the bureaucratic requirements and most efficiently distributes risk as it creates the largest risk pool, an actuarial reality.

The federal and state tax systems provide significant financial benefits for people with private health insurance. The largest group of beneficiaries is people who enroll in coverage through their jobs. There also are tax benefits for people who are self-employed and for people with high medical costs...

The largest tax subsidy for private health insurance — the exclusion from income and payroll taxes of employer and employee contributions for employer-sponsored insurance (ESI) – was estimated to cost approximately $250 billion in lost federal tax revenue in 2013... the largest tax incentive for private insurance — the exclusion of the cost of ESI — is an indirect subsidy that is never actually reported to the individuals and families who benefit from it. Many people with employer coverage are probably not aware that the federal and state tax exclusions for private health insurance provides them with a subsidy worth several thousands of dollars a year.
No competent individuals designing a nation's healthcare system would have ever attached coverage to the plethora of private employers. It was an unforeseeable, insidious development.
During and before WWII, health insurance was essentially hospitalization and in many cases only paying for the most costly procedures. Everything else was the subscribers responsibility.

The cost of healthcare over the last 75 years has increased as much as 40 times; that is, a $100 procedure then would cost about $4,000 today. When people see figures like this, the usual first question is what is the cause. We have heard the answers many times, goverment, greedy insurance companies, Obamacare, overpaid healthcare workers, big government, drug companies, etc. What you don't hear is people are utilizing healthcare 5 times as much as they did in1950. The number of medical treatments have tripled since 1960. You might like paying $5 to go to the doctor 75 years ago, but you wouldn't like hearing him tell you that there was no cure for your lung cancer or your heart disease, or your son has polio and he will probably spend the rest of his life in an iron lung, etc. etc.

In large part due to better healthcare, life expectancy has increased from 65 in 1950 to 79 in 2020 and is expected to increase to 89 by 2070. Today 11 times as many people are living to 100 compared to 1950. When looking at the increase in healthcare cost we need to ask our selves how important is living a longer and healthier life.
Had it not begun as a perquisite to encourage employees to remain in their jobs during wartime, an incidental incentive from which it metastasized, no one designing the nation's ideal healthcare system would have conflated coverage with employment. Employment is irrelevant to every American's risk of incurring significant medical expenses.
Health insurance paid by the employer is just one of many employee benefits that are either only partially taxed or not taxed at all. Most of these benefits came about at different times for different reasons. Often the reason for exempting the benefit from taxes has disappeared but the tax policy remains the same. Today, tax breaks for employees with employee health insurance helps reduce the number of uninsured, which is heavily supported by democrats and begrudgingly support by republicans. Thus it's not likely to change.
There is no special relationship between employment and the potential need for healthcare, nor any need for each employer who provides group health insurance to duplicate the administrative functions of all others. Such a senseless, inefficiant association contributes to the cost for healthcare in the U.S. being nearly twice that of all advanced democratic nations. Free private enterprise from bearing the onus, and eliminate that unnecessary administrative expense.
There is no special relationship between and the potential need for employee retirement plans, life insurance, dental insurance, disability insurance or heath insurance other than to help companies compete for the best employees and keeping them.

With or without tax breaks, employees would still take advantage of these benefits because the purchasing power and negotiating power of businesses is almost always better than the individual. Eliminating employee tax advantaged benefits would impact the highest paid employees far more than the majority of employees whose tax rates are much lower and their need is generally higher.
Thus, the most expensive healthcare cost, by far, exceeding that of all advanced democratic nations that, unlike the U.S., cover virtually every citizen.

The inefficiency of requiring every one of the millions of private sector employers to assign resources to administer every group plan, and duplicate the operations of every other one, adds enormous cost to the nation's healthcare that leaves millions uninsured whose unpaid medical costs are still assigned to the taxpayer.

How many of those advanced democracies are clamoring for a U.S.-type system where a citizen's coverage is so much the business of each and every employer?
 
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I would argue against eliminating health insurance as business expense for several reasons:

Providing healthcare insurance is a business operating expense, just like all other government required expenses and should remain deductible. If employers could not deduct the cost of providing healthcare insurance they would either eliminate their contribution to the employees healthcare plan or they would drop health insurance all to together.

Forcing millions of people to buy their health insurance without the financial support of employers which is typically 50% and without a negotiated employer contract or group contract would make insurance much more expensive for employees. The only way to lower the premiums would be goverment subsidies. This would in effect transfer the employers cost to the goverment.

The fact is employers would love to get rid the burden of providing health insurance because the heath insurance expense is just a a deduction from revenue for most businesses, not at tax credit. Only very small employers can claim a tax credit which is limited to 50% of the premium. What this means is employers would have greater profits without having to provide health insurance.
During the war [WWII], wages were capped by the federal government, so employers needed another means to entice and keep employees. The incentive they decided on were benefits like health insurance. These health benefits packages were not considered a part of employees’ wages and the employers could deduct what they spent on these benefits packages from their corporate taxes. A win-win situation!

There are reasons that what had begun as an employment perquisite of little value - an employer picking up the then negligible tab for an employee's medical insurance - has grown to become a monumentally expensive and inefficient method of covering Americans.

There is nothing unique about Americans employed by businesses administering health insurance plans needing health insurance. All Americans are subject to the risk of incurring medical expenses, sometimes ruinously high. There is no rationale for subjecting Americans who are between jobs, for whatever reason, to the potential of devastating loss if a family member should incur substantial medical expenses during such an hiatus.

The need for businesses to divert a portion of their operations to administer such plans is only one unnecessary imposition. The expectancy of an American to have his health insurance provided by an employer is a barrier to enterprise, one more impediment to potential start-ups, and an incentive to remain with a company out of fear of losing coverage rather than progressing in one's career. It was a coercive measure calculated to keep employees in their place during wartime.

Differentiating Americans working for companies who administer healthcare plans from other Americans is counter to the economic advantage of economy of scale, administrative functions assumed by the employer being repeatedly duplicated by every employer rather than all Americans, employed or otherwise, being under a single plan that minimizes the bureaucratic requirements and most efficiently distributes risk as it creates the largest risk pool, an actuarial reality.

The federal and state tax systems provide significant financial benefits for people with private health insurance. The largest group of beneficiaries is people who enroll in coverage through their jobs. There also are tax benefits for people who are self-employed and for people with high medical costs...

The largest tax subsidy for private health insurance — the exclusion from income and payroll taxes of employer and employee contributions for employer-sponsored insurance (ESI) – was estimated to cost approximately $250 billion in lost federal tax revenue in 2013... the largest tax incentive for private insurance — the exclusion of the cost of ESI — is an indirect subsidy that is never actually reported to the individuals and families who benefit from it. Many people with employer coverage are probably not aware that the federal and state tax exclusions for private health insurance provides them with a subsidy worth several thousands of dollars a year.
No competent individuals designing a nation's healthcare system would have ever attached coverage to the plethora of private employers. It was an unforeseeable, insidious development.
During and before WWII, health insurance was essentially hospitalization and in many cases only paying for the most costly procedures. Everything else was the subscribers responsibility.

The cost of healthcare over the last 75 years has increased as much as 40 times; that is, a $100 procedure then would cost about $4,000 today. When people see figures like this, the usual first question is what is the cause. We have heard the answers many times, goverment, greedy insurance companies, Obamacare, overpaid healthcare workers, big government, drug companies, etc. What you don't hear is people are utilizing healthcare 5 times as much as they did in1950. The number of medical treatments have tripled since 1960. You might like paying $5 to go to the doctor 75 years ago, but you wouldn't like hearing him tell you that there was no cure for your lung cancer or your heart disease, or your son has polio and he will probably spend the rest of his life in an iron lung, etc. etc.

In large part due to better healthcare, life expectancy has increased from 65 in 1950 to 79 in 2020 and is expected to increase to 89 by 2070. Today 11 times as many people are living to 100 compared to 1950. When looking at the increase in healthcare cost we need to ask our selves how important is living a longer and healthier life.
Had it not begun as a perquisite to encourage employees to remain in their jobs during wartime, an incidental incentive from which it metastasized, no one designing the nation's ideal healthcare system would have conflated coverage with employment. Employment is irrelevant to every American's risk of incurring significant medical expenses.
Health insurance paid by the employer is just one of many employee benefits that are either only partially taxed or not taxed at all. Most of these benefits came about at different times for different reasons. Often the reason for exempting the benefit from taxes has disappeared but the tax policy remains the same. Today, tax breaks for employees with employee health insurance helps reduce the number of uninsured, which is heavily supported by democrats and begrudgingly support by republicans. Thus it's not likely to change.
There is no special relationship between employment and the potential need for healthcare, nor any need for each employer who provides group health insurance to duplicate the administrative functions of all others. Such a senseless, inefficiant association contributes to the cost for healthcare in the U.S. being nearly twice that of all advanced democratic nations. Free private enterprise from bearing the onus, and eliminate that unnecessary administrative expense.
There is no special relationship between and the potential need for employee retirement plans, life insurance, dental insurance, disability insurance or heath insurance other than to help companies compete for the best employees and keeping them.

With or without tax breaks, employees would still take advantage of these benefits because the purchasing power and negotiating power of businesses is almost always better than the individual. Eliminating employee tax advantaged benefits would impact the highest paid employees far more than the majority of employees whose tax rates are much lower and their need is generally higher.

That is the point, that employer paid benefits that are tax exempt are extremely regressive.
In fact, the very wealthy can take their pay in stock options, which allows them to pay the low 15% capital gains tax rate.
The poorest 40% of worker are not offered employee paid health insurance, and then as individual have to try to negotiate with insurance companies. The insurance companies then charge these poor individuals over twice as much as the group rates that employers can demand. Totally unfair, harmful, and it should be illegal. But it does more harm then just leaving the poor without health care access, because it also dumps the unbridles extra health care costs on our products, thus making them over priced and difficult to export. When was the last time computers, cellphones, or consumer electronics were made in the US?
 
It was just announced that the Supreme Court ruled 7-2 on Obamacare saying the states don't have standing on this case.

So Obamacare stays.

For now.

Can't wait until the GOP gets around to auditing that outcome....right Lastamender

LOL
 
Ok, I think I understand your position. You want to tax employee health insurance benefits that are currently not being tax to make employer provided health insurance less attractive.. Is that correct?
Why does the goal have to be to make anything more or less attractive? That is the core problem right there, that the thought process concerning governmental tax powers IMMIDEATLY goes to incentive structures and NOT to the stated goal of taxation in the first place: to fund the government. It seems that the actual purpose of taxation does not even cross your mind, just what those tax structures incentivize.

I would like the government to be honest just one time and actually tell people what their tax plan is actually for (any tax plan seriously devised in the last 100 years): gaining more control over your life because Uncle Sam thinks you are to dumb to make important decisions.

I would state that the goal is to get government out of your healthcare and put you back into it because of all the people represented in the healthcare industry, the patient is NOT one of them.
 
Why does the goal have to be to make anything more or less attractive? That is the core problem right there, that the thought process concerning governmental tax powers IMMIDEATLY goes to incentive structures and NOT to the stated goal of taxation in the first place: to fund the government. It seems that the actual purpose of taxation does not even cross your mind, just what those tax structures incentivize.

I would like the government to be honest just one time and actually tell people what their tax plan is actually for (any tax plan seriously devised in the last 100 years): gaining more control over your life because Uncle Sam thinks you are to dumb to make important decisions.

Absolutely. The whole game of steering society with tax incentives amounts to a massive expansion of federal power, far beyond its intended Constitutional limits. And people are so sucked into the "free shit" mindset, that they don't even notice.
 
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The richest wealthiest nation in the world can assuredly make health insurance for the bottom 60 percent easily affordable or something is wrong with the country.
 
Ok, I think I understand your position. You want to tax employee health insurance benefits that are currently not being tax to make employer provided health insurance less attractive.. Is that correct?
Why does the goal have to be to make anything more or less attractive? That is the core problem right there, that the thought process concerning governmental tax powers IMMIDEATLY goes to incentive structures and NOT to the stated goal of taxation in the first place: to fund the government. It seems that the actual purpose of taxation does not even cross your mind, just what those tax structures incentivize.

I would like the government to be honest just one time and actually tell people what their tax plan is actually for (any tax plan seriously devised in the last 100 years): gaining more control over your life because Uncle Sam thinks you are to dumb to make important decisions.

I would state that the goal is to get government out of your healthcare and put you back into it because of all the people represented in the healthcare industry, the patient is NOT one of them.

The goal has to be to make the current employer provided health insurance less appealing to the employees, because it is unfair to the minority who do not get it, it also ruins our economy, and the majority who get it and think they like it, do not realize how expensive and terrible it is.

The goal of taxation is supposed to be to fairly and equally fund necessary projects.
But employer based health insurance is not a fair, equal, or necessary project, so should never have had any government involvement in the first place.

However a fair and equitable health care solution is something that should have government involvement. That is because government can help pool risk between the many who do not need health care most of the time, and the few do, as well as implement collective bargaining with health care providers, to get the best fair prices for everyone.

Private, for profit, insurance companies are terrible because they add nothing, skim profits, force you to prepay, and then do not care about quality or cost.
Public single payer risk pooling adds collective bargaining, costs nothing extra, allows you to pay after the fact, and can totally control quality and cost through voter approval or disapproval.
 
The richest wealthiest nation in the world can assuredly make health insurance for the bottom 60 percent easily affordable or something is wrong with the country.

Except insurance is not a good way to deal with anything.
Insurance skims off profits, adds nothing, forces you to prepay, eliminates any ability for you to complain about cost or quality.

Before the 1960s, almost no one had insurance for anything, and insurance was correctly perceived as a scam.
 
Ok, I think I understand your position. You want to tax employee health insurance benefits that are currently not being tax to make employer provided health insurance less attractive.. Is that correct?
Why does the goal have to be to make anything more or less attractive? That is the core problem right there, that the thought process concerning governmental tax powers IMMIDEATLY goes to incentive structures and NOT to the stated goal of taxation in the first place: to fund the government. It seems that the actual purpose of taxation does not even cross your mind, just what those tax structures incentivize.

I would like the government to be honest just one time and actually tell people what their tax plan is actually for (any tax plan seriously devised in the last 100 years): gaining more control over your life because Uncle Sam thinks you are to dumb to make important decisions.

I would state that the goal is to get government out of your healthcare and put you back into it because of all the people represented in the healthcare industry, the patient is NOT one of them.

The goal has to be to make the current employer provided health insurance less appealing to the employees ...

That wouldn't necessarily be my goal. My goal would be to remove all "incentives", pro or con. To make providing health care as appealing as it actually is, with no carrots or sticks getting in the way. Under the current circumstances, that would have the effect of making it less appealing - but I think it's important to note that "tax incentives" are what get us into these kinds of problems in the first place.
 
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I believe that if you made healthcare insurance benefits taxable, it would have little to no effect on employee provided insurance. The benefits of having employer contributions of 50% of premiums and group insurance buying power would still make all other insurance alternatives much more expensive. The only thing taxing healthcare benefits would accomplish is shift more of the tax burden on workers.
 
I believe that if you made healthcare insurance benefits taxable, it would have little to no effect on employee provided insurance.

Well, we'd also need to get rid of the various regulations requiring them to offer health care as a benefit. But as I've said - my goal isn't to abolish, or even dis-incentivize it. The goal should be to get rid of all the artificial factors pushing it one way or another. If there IS real value to depending on your employer for health care, if that's what employers and employees really want, then you're right - they'd still do it without the incentives and legal requirements.
 
I agree a single payer system where the only employer involvement would be to deduct a healthcare plan fee from payroll checks would be far superior to what we have now. Insurance companies and employers who once served a useful purpose in the healthcare system, today are just costly middlemen in the delivery of healthcare. In the healthcare system which we have today, that excludes no one, where essentially all healthcare maladies are covered and there are no dollar amount limits on that coverage, these middlemen serve no real purpose. They just add to cost.

Insurance companies would have you believe that they are the gatekeepers limiting the cost of healthcare. In the past that may or may not have been true but today over 90% of the doctor and hospital reimbursements are within a few percent of the Medicare fixed rates.
 
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I agree a single payer system that the only employer involvement would be to deduct a healthcare plan fee from payroll checks would be far superior to what we have now.
Heh.. ok, but you're not agreeing with me. Just to be clear. Depending on the government for health care is even dumber than depending on an employer.
 
Of course their is value in getting your insurance from your employers regradless of whether you taxed on that benefit. Look at alternative, the healthcare exchange which have much higher premiums and higher deductibles.
Ok. If you're right, then there's no need for tax incentives or other legal mandates.
 
The purpose of the healthcare exchange is provide coverage for those who can not buy reasonable priced coverage from their employer and can not quality for Medicare or Medicaid. Even low income workers who get large subsidies on the exchange can rarely get as good a policy as their employer offers.
 
Indeed, time to end individual welfare.
Roads, bridges, internet. All improve general welfare.
Monthly checks made out to individuals based on perceived "need" is the antithesis of "general".
How unfortunate right-wingers seem to have absolutly no problem with the already Rich getting multimillion dollar bonuses from corporate welfare. Why only hate on the Poor while alleging morality in other threads?
 
How unfortunate right-wingers seem to have absolutly no problem with the already Rich getting multimillion dollar bonuses from corporate welfare. Why only hate on the Poor while alleging morality in other threads?
A tax cut is not welfare.
No corporation should be receiving welfare. Tax cuts and loans, perhaps, but not welfare.
 

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