Supply side economics work...just not how we would like

[flacaltenn]

You can WHINE about how US businesses decided that given a Global economy, the US probably shouldn't be making its own tires, tubesocks, and TVs anymore and blame them for the mess ----

OR

You can focus on what we SHOULD be doing in a world where BILLIONs of workers and consumers have been added.. We went thru this in the 60s and 70s with Japan and how their embarrassingly cheap goods undercut our production. But I don't see anyone 25 years later griping about unfair Japanese practices. THEY (the Japanese) managed to exploit and EXPAND their advantages to maintain a leadership position in innovative and leading edge products.

We need to do the same.. Even cheap labor is a passing fad.. The Chinese know this and we COULD be on equal footing bringing 21st Century type manufacturing back to this country. That is -- if leftists would focus and stop trying to be victims.

Or we can just implement a series of trade regulations like they have in Germany, and tell the corporations that would rather move their businesses, so they can pay their workers slave wages, to go fuck themselves.

Yep, I like that choice.

And, just for the record, that's not "being the victim". That's evening the playing field.

We BUY the products, after all. If people would just realize that they, as the consumer, hold all the cards, then this problem would disappear overnight.

You could try to build fences -- but that would be wasted effort. We SHOULDN'T be making tube socks anymore. You cannot anymore prevent a corporation from going to serve another market -- if the American market becomes hostile to them.. Go Ahead -- Make my Day and try it...

Has it ever occured to you that corporations are NOT international political bodies or Aid Agencies? They have no business DEMANDING that local foreign govts comply with a long list of competitive requirements. You take a basketball factory to Bangladesh and pay prevailing American wages and the only thing you've accomplished is to create a sudden aristocracy of basketball makers. It is NOT OUR call to demand that folks NOT send their 14 yr old kids to work in a foreign factory OR that their govt offer them roads, healthcare and other benefits. THAT would be economic Imperialism wouldn't it?

Those workers are given an opportunity to greatly enhance their lot, become productive citizens and IF they have the blessing of an OPEN and RESPONSIVE govt -- they will be OK.

 

[Vast LWC]

The internet, paypal and UPS make that a littler harder than in the past Vast.

That is true, but country of origination is still required on all packages delivered.

The only issues really would be software, or remotely performed services.

 

[Vast LWC]

You could try to build fences -- but that would be wasted effort. We SHOULDN'T be making tube socks anymore. You cannot anymore prevent a corporation from going to serve another market -- if the American market becomes hostile to them.. Go Ahead -- Make my Day and try it...

Has it ever occured to you that corporations are NOT international political bodies or Aid Agencies? They have no business DEMANDING that local foreign govts comply with a long list of competitive requirements. You take a basketball factory to Bangladesh and pay prevailing American wages and the only thing you've accomplished is to create a sudden aristocracy of basketball makers. It is NOT OUR call to demand that folks NOT send their 14 yr old kids to work in a foreign factory OR that their govt offer them roads, healthcare and other benefits. THAT would be economic Imperialism wouldn't it?

Those workers are given an opportunity to greatly enhance their lot, become productive citizens and IF they have the blessing of an OPEN and RESPONSIVE govt -- they will be OK.

How does any of that refute the point that I was making, which was that Globalization has not had a net benefit for the US?

And to tell you the truth, I'm not really enough of a humanitarian to go putting the welfare of other nations above ours.

 

[flacaltenn]

You could try to build fences -- but that would be wasted effort. We SHOULDN'T be making tube socks anymore. You cannot anymore prevent a corporation from going to serve another market -- if the American market becomes hostile to them.. Go Ahead -- Make my Day and try it...

Has it ever occured to you that corporations are NOT international political bodies or Aid Agencies? They have no business DEMANDING that local foreign govts comply with a long list of competitive requirements. You take a basketball factory to Bangladesh and pay prevailing American wages and the only thing you've accomplished is to create a sudden aristocracy of basketball makers. It is NOT OUR call to demand that folks NOT send their 14 yr old kids to work in a foreign factory OR that their govt offer them roads, healthcare and other benefits. THAT would be economic Imperialism wouldn't it?

Those workers are given an opportunity to greatly enhance their lot, become productive citizens and IF they have the blessing of an OPEN and RESPONSIVE govt -- they will be OK.

How does any of that refute the point that I was making, which was that Globalization has not had a net benefit for the US?

There have been OBVIOUS benefits of globalization.. We've supplemented our labor base GREATLY by having foreign companies locate here. There are now more Americans working for FOREIGN car companies in the US than for GM, Ford and Chrysler.

(Whoops Chrysler isn't American anymore much is it? and GM and Ford have MASSIVE investments in the rest of the World don't they?) Same with 100s of other foreign companies who have relocated to America.

And the reduced price of common goods IS buoying the US economy.. Much better than your prescription of artificially raising concrete barriers and driving up prices, wages and inflation while starting a literal GLOBAL trade war.. That IS what you're suggesting -- right?

 

[The Rabbi]

Except having a job to pay for all that neat stuff is sort of a sticking point.

Not a problem. There are an infinite number of potential jobs out there. With people spending less money on some stuff they have more to spend on other stuff.

Maybe not for you, unemployed Americans see it a bit different.

Except for the last 2 years no one has been unemployed more than a few months. There is always dislocation as businesses open and close. That's capitalism. You could always move to North Korea where basically everyone works for one employer.

 

[The Rabbi]

We werent talking about the 1950s but the 1970s. Anyone who can say the economy was fine didnt live through that period.
The US has been a net beneficiary in many way. This is without question, except among people who don't get it.

Actually, the post you were apparently replying to, was from Vidi, and said:

Prior to Friedmans influence on President Reagan, this country enjoyed its most prosperous 30 years.

Which would include the 50's and the 60's.

As far as your "without question" statement, you're right, there's a whole lot of people that "don't get it", and by "it" I mean the benefits.

The 30 years prior to Reagan included the 1970s.
I'm not sure what your chart is suppsoed to prove. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Vast LWC]

There have been OBVIOUS benefits of globalization.. We've supplemented our labor base GREATLY by having foreign companies locate here. There are now more Americans working for FOREIGN car companies in the US than for GM, Ford and Chrysler.

(Whoops Chrysler isn't American anymore much is it? and GM and Ford have MASSIVE investments in the rest of the World don't they?) Same with 100s of other foreign companies who have relocated to America.

And the reduced price of common goods IS buoying the US economy.. Much better than your prescription of artificially raising concrete barriers and driving up prices, wages and inflation while starting a literal GLOBAL trade war.. That IS what you're suggesting -- right?

We are already involved in a "Global Trade War", we're simply not fighting back.

For instance:

In most cases people can't buy foreign made cars in India. It's illegal.

If you try to send a laptop over to China, you get charged $1,000-2,000 in "customs fees". I know this because I have to do exactly that, as part of my job.

Those are just very small examples.

China subsidizes it's industry to no end, until it has a monopoly on whatever the product is. That's the reason the US solar panel manufacturing industry is DOA.

Meanwhile, our politicians don't do anything about it, because the multinationals are paying them not to.

 

[The Rabbi]

You could try to build fences -- but that would be wasted effort. We SHOULDN'T be making tube socks anymore. You cannot anymore prevent a corporation from going to serve another market -- if the American market becomes hostile to them.. Go Ahead -- Make my Day and try it...

Has it ever occured to you that corporations are NOT international political bodies or Aid Agencies? They have no business DEMANDING that local foreign govts comply with a long list of competitive requirements. You take a basketball factory to Bangladesh and pay prevailing American wages and the only thing you've accomplished is to create a sudden aristocracy of basketball makers. It is NOT OUR call to demand that folks NOT send their 14 yr old kids to work in a foreign factory OR that their govt offer them roads, healthcare and other benefits. THAT would be economic Imperialism wouldn't it?

Those workers are given an opportunity to greatly enhance their lot, become productive citizens and IF they have the blessing of an OPEN and RESPONSIVE govt -- they will be OK.

How does any of that refute the point that I was making, which was that Globalization has not had a net benefit for the US?

And to tell you the truth, I'm not really enough of a humanitarian to go putting the welfare of other nations above ours.

Your point is unfounded.
Globalization has had a huge net benefit. Prices for many things have dropped considerably. Trade is a big part of what any even medium sized company does now.
But that is irrelevant partly. Globalization is a fact of life. We are stuck with it. Putting up walls like E.Germany would give us an economy like E.Germany. I dont want to buy old crappy outmoded products at high prices. I want start of the art at competitive prices. And the only way to do that is compete. And Americans do very well with that.

 

[The Rabbi]

There have been OBVIOUS benefits of globalization.. We've supplemented our labor base GREATLY by having foreign companies locate here. There are now more Americans working for FOREIGN car companies in the US than for GM, Ford and Chrysler.

(Whoops Chrysler isn't American anymore much is it? and GM and Ford have MASSIVE investments in the rest of the World don't they?) Same with 100s of other foreign companies who have relocated to America.

And the reduced price of common goods IS buoying the US economy.. Much better than your prescription of artificially raising concrete barriers and driving up prices, wages and inflation while starting a literal GLOBAL trade war.. That IS what you're suggesting -- right?

We are already involved in a "Global Trade War", we're simply not fighting back.

For instance:

In most cases people can't buy foreign made cars in India. It's illegal.

If you try to send a laptop over to China, you get charged $1,000-2,000 in "customs fees". I know this because I have to do exactly that, as part of my job.

Those are just very small examples.

China subsidizes it's industry to no end, until it has a monopoly on whatever the product is. That's the reason the US solar panel manufacturing industry is DOA.

Meanwhile, our politicians don't do anything about it, because the multinationals are paying them not to.

In India foreign companies have set up domestic subsidiaries to produce cars. They do very well. India protected its domestic car industry for decades. The result was crappy inefficient cars that cost as much as very good cars elsewhere. Once they stopped protecting their industry those companies got swept away and were replaced with more efficient producers. Which one would you pick?
Automotive industry in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am happy China subsidizes American consumers. I want more of their money. Who wouldn't?

 

[Vast LWC]

The 30 years prior to Reagan included the 1970s.

Yes, it does, but you said:

We werent talking about the 1950s but the 1970s.

Nice try at revising though.

I'm not sure what your chart is suppsoed to prove. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

My chart is supposed to prove that wages have either been lower, or equal to what they were in the 1970's for the past 30 years.

Which proves the point that if globalization has had some sort of "net benefit" for the US, the average US citizen has not seen any of it.

 

[The Rabbi]

The 30 years prior to Reagan included the 1970s.

Yes, it does, but you said:

We werent talking about the 1950s but the 1970s.

Nice try at revising though.

I'm not sure what your chart is suppsoed to prove. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

My chart is supposed to prove that wages have either been lower, or equal to what they were in the 1970's for the past 30 years.

Which proves the point that if globalization has had some sort of "net benefit" for the US, the average US citizen has not seen any of it.

You understand that is a complete non-sequitur, right?

 

[flacaltenn]

There have been OBVIOUS benefits of globalization.. We've supplemented our labor base GREATLY by having foreign companies locate here. There are now more Americans working for FOREIGN car companies in the US than for GM, Ford and Chrysler.

(Whoops Chrysler isn't American anymore much is it? and GM and Ford have MASSIVE investments in the rest of the World don't they?) Same with 100s of other foreign companies who have relocated to America.

And the reduced price of common goods IS buoying the US economy.. Much better than your prescription of artificially raising concrete barriers and driving up prices, wages and inflation while starting a literal GLOBAL trade war.. That IS what you're suggesting -- right?

We are already involved in a "Global Trade War", we're simply not fighting back.

For instance:

In most cases people can't buy foreign made cars in India. It's illegal.

If you try to send a laptop over to China, you get charged $1,000-2,000 in "customs fees". I know this because I have to do exactly that, as part of my job.

Those are just very small examples.

China subsidizes it's industry to no end, until it has a monopoly on whatever the product is. That's the reason the US solar panel manufacturing industry is DOA.

Meanwhile, our politicians don't do anything about it, because the multinationals are paying them not to.

I work with contract manufacturers in China all the time.. Sending computers to China is like selling ice to eskimos.. It would make no diff to American jobs or business. BTW -- those "custom fees" are waived if the material doesn't get resold and is property of a valid company with legit offices in China.

The US solar panel industry is on the rocks largely because its now a commodity item with no great differences between vendors except price. (and the plummeting willingness of Europe to pay huge subsidies for these items)

When that happens, there WILL be intense competition. Our job is to MOVE ON and keep innovation moving. It's a reality that we need to face up to because we don't DICTATE technology anymore. And we better focus on upgrading our labor pool and the way capital flows to NEW INNOVATIVE start-ups to keep the competition on their toes. Especially those flabby, complacent multi-nationals that need to be knocked off their thrones every once in awhile.. It's the dream of every American hi-tech entreprenuer to make those giants fall on their arrogant faces. And that should encouraged. You don't DO THAT thru regulation and stifling venture capital flow with threatening higher cap gains taxes. That's for sure.

 

[Vast LWC]

In India foreign companies have set up domestic subsidiaries to produce cars. They do very well. India protected its domestic car industry for decades. The result was crappy inefficient cars that cost as much as very good cars elsewhere. Once they stopped protecting their industry those companies got swept away and were replaced with more efficient producers. Which one would you pick?
Automotive industry in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rate of duty on imported cars in India is 101.91% of the car's value.

Import of Car
Indian Customs Duty | Import Duty India of HS Code 8703 | MOTOR CARS AND OTHER MOTOR VEHICLES PRINCIPALLY DESIGNED FOR THE TRANSPORT OF PERSONS (OTHER THAN THOSE OF HEADING 8702), INCLUDING STATION WAGONS AND RACING CARS

I am happy China subsidizes American consumers. I want more of their money. Who wouldn't?

Right up to the point where they corner the market, and you'll have no choice but to buy their product at whatever price they name.

Good work not seeing the forest for the trees though.

 

[Vast LWC]

You understand that is a complete non-sequitur, right?

Are there 2 Rabbis here?

Did you, or did you not say:

The US has been a net beneficiary of globalization, which is why unemployment was very low until the recent turn in the economic cycle. Few were complaining about globalization in 2005 when the UE rate was 5%.

We could erect tariffs and build everything here and it would cost double what it does now. Is that really what we want, destroying our export business in the process? I think not.

????

 

[The Rabbi]

In India foreign companies have set up domestic subsidiaries to produce cars. They do very well. India protected its domestic car industry for decades. The result was crappy inefficient cars that cost as much as very good cars elsewhere. Once they stopped protecting their industry those companies got swept away and were replaced with more efficient producers. Which one would you pick?
Automotive industry in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rate of duty on imported cars in India is 101.91% of the car's value.

Import of Car
Indian Customs Duty | Import Duty India of HS Code 8703 | MOTOR CARS AND OTHER MOTOR VEHICLES PRINCIPALLY DESIGNED FOR THE TRANSPORT OF PERSONS (OTHER THAN THOSE OF HEADING 8702), INCLUDING STATION WAGONS AND RACING CARS

I am happy China subsidizes American consumers. I want more of their money. Who wouldn't?

Right up to the point where they corner the market, and you'll have no choice but to buy their product at whatever price they name.

Good work not seeing the forest for the trees though.

ZOMG! We'll never produce another car in this country again!!! We'll never produce another widget because the Chinese can produce it cheaper. And then they'll jack the price up and we'll have forgotten how to make widgets! ZOMG! ZOMG!!

You understand that competition means people entering industries where profits are to be had, right?

 

[Vast LWC]

I work with contract manufacturers in China all the time.. Sending computers to China is like selling ice to eskimos.. It would make no diff to American jobs or business. BTW -- those "custom fees" are waived if the material doesn't get resold and is property of a valid company with legit offices in China.

I'm not sure what customs officials you are bribing, but that is simply not true.

The US solar panel industry is on the rocks largely because its now a commodity item with no great differences between vendors except price. (and the plummeting willingness of Europe to pay huge subsidies for these items)

When that happens, there WILL be intense competition. Our job is to MOVE ON and keep innovation moving. It's a reality that we need to face up to because we don't DICTATE technology anymore. And we better focus on upgrading our labor pool and the way capital flows to NEW INNOVATIVE start-ups to keep the competition on their toes. Especially those flabby, complacent multi-nationals that need to be knocked off their thrones every once in awhile.. It's the dream of every American hi-tech entreprenuer to make those giants fall on their arrogant faces. And that should encouraged. You don't DO THAT thru regulation and stifling venture capital flow with threatening higher cap gains taxes. That's for sure.

I'm not talking about the retail end. I'm talking about the manufacturing of solar panels, which at this point is pretty much entirely the domain of the Chinese, thanks to Chinese subsidization.

And as far as "innovation" and "start ups" go, I would suggest going to Shanghai and buying a copy of any American-invented software.

I can assure you that you'll get an excellent price on it, because it won't be made, or licensed, by US companies.

 

[The Rabbi]

You understand that is a complete non-sequitur, right?

Are there 2 Rabbis here?

Did you, or did you not say:

The US has been a net beneficiary of globalization, which is why unemployment was very low until the recent turn in the economic cycle. Few were complaining about globalization in 2005 when the UE rate was 5%.

We could erect tariffs and build everything here and it would cost double what it does now. Is that really what we want, destroying our export business in the process? I think not.

????

You understand that a) real wages paid are influenced by many things, globalization only one of them; and b) that benefit does not necessarily get reflected in wages, and c) that perhaps wages would be even lower were it not for the benefits of opened markets, right?

 

[The Rabbi]

I work with contract manufacturers in China all the time.. Sending computers to China is like selling ice to eskimos.. It would make no diff to American jobs or business. BTW -- those "custom fees" are waived if the material doesn't get resold and is property of a valid company with legit offices in China.

I'm not sure what customs officials you are bribing, but that is simply not true.

The US solar panel industry is on the rocks largely because its now a commodity item with no great differences between vendors except price. (and the plummeting willingness of Europe to pay huge subsidies for these items)

When that happens, there WILL be intense competition. Our job is to MOVE ON and keep innovation moving. It's a reality that we need to face up to because we don't DICTATE technology anymore. And we better focus on upgrading our labor pool and the way capital flows to NEW INNOVATIVE start-ups to keep the competition on their toes. Especially those flabby, complacent multi-nationals that need to be knocked off their thrones every once in awhile.. It's the dream of every American hi-tech entreprenuer to make those giants fall on their arrogant faces. And that should encouraged. You don't DO THAT thru regulation and stifling venture capital flow with threatening higher cap gains taxes. That's for sure.

I'm not talking about the retail end. I'm talking about the manufacturing of solar panels, which at this point is pretty much entirely the domain of the Chinese, thanks to Chinese subsidization.

And as far as "innovation" and "start ups" go, I would suggest going to Shanghai and buying a copy of any American-invented software.

I can assure you that you'll get an excellent price on it, because it won't be made, or licensed, by US companies.

So the Chinese choose to subsidize their solar panel industry, resulting in lower prices for consumers of solar panels.
That's a problem how?

 

[Vast LWC]

ZOMG! We'll never produce another car in this country again!!! We'll never produce another widget because the Chinese can produce it cheaper. And then they'll jack the price up and we'll have forgotten how to make widgets! ZOMG! ZOMG!!

You understand that competition means people entering industries where profits are to be had, right?

You do understand that the profits are primarily being made from our pockets, right?

That the US is a consumer nation, and that there's a massive trade imbalance right now, right?

 

[Vast LWC]

You understand that a) real wages paid are influenced by many things, globalization only one of them; and b) that benefit does not necessarily get reflected in wages, and c) that perhaps wages would be even lower were it not for the benefits of opened markets, right?

Wages kept going up until those markets were opened, and then they flat-lined.

But your assertion is that there is no causality there, and wages would have gone down further if the markets weren't opened up?

And, in addition, you want us to believe that the US has been a net beneficiary of globalization?

Yeah, sorry, I don't drink that brand of Kool Aid.