Suicide...a right or not?

[AllieBaba]

Are you seriously putting that out there as an example? Have you been drinking?

If you're serious, in that you don't think we should have complete autonomy over our own bodies, then I hope you enjoy your Obamacare because it sounds like you just endorsed it.

Next time use "abortion is murder" for your example, you could actually get some traction with that. Your example above is absurd.

The bait works every time....LOL

So, your real objection to My example (and contrary to your belief, it is far from absurd) is that the right to use your body to kill others is that it keeps you from killing a baby via abortion....

Is that about right?

No, not really.

It's not about abortion or any 1 issue to me. I don't think about having an abortion any more than I think about committing suicide. I think about I am the only 1 that is ultimately responsible for me and if I don't have the right to control my own body then I can't be held responsible. Personal responsibility means a lot to me, therefore personal autonomy is an imperative.

I'm not going to derail someone else's thread by making it into an abortion debate. If you want to do that I suggest you start a new thread. But FWIW, I don't believe being anti-abortion is in line with conservative values. Mandating what people can or can't do with their bodies is an authoritarian stance that takes personal responsibility away from the individual. That sort of social coercion is best left to the libs if you ask me. If there's an issue of morality I believe that is between the sinner and their creator. Personally I would never commit suicide or have an abortion, but it should be my choice, not yours or the states.

The problem with abortion is, it's not just your body. Just as it's not just your body if you're a suicide bomber.

 

[Darkwind]

Everyone at some point contemplates offing themselves. However, if they don't succeed, it is the obligation of their living brethren to help them discover the joy in life and the futility and pain of suicide.

Regardless of whether or not it's a "right" is irrelevant. People have the ability and the means to kill themselves, and if they are committed to it, they'll do it.
You can't imprison the dead. If you want to kill yourself, have at.

If you fail, you're going to be evaluated, and treated, however useless it may be in any individual's case. However, in MANY cases; RGS is an example; a failed attempt results in an awakening and the understanding that life is painful, but we have obligations to those who love and depend on us. If you cannot find joy in your own existence, at least try to find joy in the existence of others and do your best to make their existences fulfilling and worthwhile.

My son is grappling with this right now. His best friend killed himself in a hideous manner, and my boy was the one who got to, literally, pick up the pieces left of his childhood friend to save the family the pain. Now my boy has to deal with the guilt and pain associated with being close to a suicide..which includes knowing that person was suicidal, and being unable to prevent it. Likewise, my last association with that young man included a long conversation about suicide, and the many reasons he shouldn't succumb.

What's even worse, is I had almost the exact same conversation with Skyler's little brother the night before the funeral. I give him at the most, 5 years. He's 20. He's bright, he's beautiful, and he just can't internalize the value of his life. His mom's a junkie, his dad was a junkie and was murdered, and his beloved older brother blew his brains out.

Somewhere there's a disconnect, and sometimes we can fix it but most of the time we can't. Does that mean we shouldn't try? We should try. Any kid who talks about or tries to kill himself should be forced into treatment. It could possibly fail, but even if it does, dead is dead, and there's no going back. The hope is that the person who wants to kill himself will realize he's a precious person and deserving of life. You can't force that realization upon someone, but if they're on the precipice and you can pull them back, then it's worth it. If it fails and they kill themselves anyway, there's no loss to the suicide. But if it succeeds, how much more precious is that life?

RGS it kills me every time you write you have no joy in life...because others, including me, have joy in your life. I don't know you...but I am joyful for every life. You're precious, and the pain you suffer is not a solitary pain. There are others in your situation, there are others who have suffered what you suffer, you are not alone, and you are precious. To God and to humans who appreciate life. Your contributions here on this board alone make you worthy of life and your absence would be a great loss. And we're just people who are exposed to you in the most abstract sense! Try to appreciate your own worth, try to internalize it. It's easy to be sucked into thinking your life means nothing, and to think that it's too painful.

But there are people out there who suffer even more, always. If you can reach out to them, as you reach out to people here, then your life is worthwhile, and there is nothing wrong with feeling good about that.

BTW, there's something called ... oh crap, I don't remember...patterning? Where you tell yourself something or make yourself do something over and over, and eventually, your brain attaches to it and it becomes the norm for you. Try it. Honestly, I've seen women in treatment and under psychiatric care do it, and it does work. For example, women who have suffered unspeakable horrors who think they are worthless, and as part of their treatment, they have to spend 5 minutes a day in front of a mirror saying out loud to themselves, "I am beautiful, I am worthwhile." It's gotten a lot of flack, and it's fodder for hilarity (there is so much you can do with that from a comedy aspect) but it really does work. It's one of the few treatments I've witnessed that do. Look in the mirror when you're shaving and say 5 times, "I am a precious person. My life brings joy to others." You might not believe it, but do it anyway, for 2 weeks. Sounds stupid, and you'll feel stupid doing it, but what can it hurt?

Sorry, if you crack up you have to start over. And you have to add "And I'm funny, too."

PS, I'm manic depressive, with anxiety disorder and a history of abuse in a variety of forms. I spent years where I would dream (as in be asleep and actually dream) of killing myself, or have sudden inexplicable impulses to kill myself. I still have anxiety disorder, but have trained myself to appreciate myself and love life. It wasn't easy, and life never ceases to be painful, but at this point in life all I can say is my life is precious, and so is everyone else's. I was put on this earth for a purpose, and killing myself isn't an option. Pain is part of life, and the more pain you survive, the more valuable you are to others who are struggling.

Okay, done rambling. Try not to puke. Try the patterning thing. It really does make a difference.

I don't have time to reply to all of this, but let Me address the first point.

I have never thought of offing Myself. I happen to believe that suicide is one of the most selfish acts a person can commit.

 

[AllieBaba]

Good for you.

 

[Amanda]

The bait works every time....LOL

So, your real objection to My example (and contrary to your belief, it is far from absurd) is that the right to use your body to kill others is that it keeps you from killing a baby via abortion....

Is that about right?

No, not really.

It's not about abortion or any 1 issue to me. I don't think about having an abortion any more than I think about committing suicide. I think about I am the only 1 that is ultimately responsible for me and if I don't have the right to control my own body then I can't be held responsible. Personal responsibility means a lot to me, therefore personal autonomy is an imperative.

I'm not going to derail someone else's thread by making it into an abortion debate. If you want to do that I suggest you start a new thread. But FWIW, I don't believe being anti-abortion is in line with conservative values. Mandating what people can or can't do with their bodies is an authoritarian stance that takes personal responsibility away from the individual. That sort of social coercion is best left to the libs if you ask me. If there's an issue of morality I believe that is between the sinner and their creator. Personally I would never commit suicide or have an abortion, but it should be my choice, not yours or the states.

The problem with abortion is, it's not just your body. Just as it's not just your body if you're a suicide bomber.

But the argument you made (no 1 can stop you) applies as well. Ultimately, just like suicide, each individual has to find their reason to do or not do it and there's nothing the state or any other person can do about it. The person that chooses to do it will have to live with the consequences and (if you believe in a higher power) answer for their choice.

 

[Amanda]

It's probably unavoidable that this turn into another tired, boring abortion debate at this point so my apologies to the OP.

The bait works every time....LOL

So, your real objection to My example (and contrary to your belief, it is far from absurd) is that the right to use your body to kill others is that it keeps you from killing a baby via abortion....

Is that about right?

No, not really.

It's not about abortion or any 1 issue to me. I don't think about having an abortion any more than I think about committing suicide. I think about I am the only 1 that is ultimately responsible for me and if I don't have the right to control my own body then I can't be held responsible. Personal responsibility means a lot to me, therefore personal autonomy is an imperative.

I'm not going to derail someone else's thread by making it into an abortion debate. If you want to do that I suggest you start a new thread. But FWIW, I don't believe being anti-abortion is in line with conservative values. Mandating what people can or can't do with their bodies is an authoritarian stance that takes personal responsibility away from the individual. That sort of social coercion is best left to the libs if you ask me. If there's an issue of morality I believe that is between the sinner and their creator. Personally I would never commit suicide or have an abortion, but it should be my choice, not yours or the states.

I don't want to make it into an abortion debate either. But it always comes up.

Everyone has a right to do with their body what they wish....

My point is..

Within reason.

Your right to do with your body what you wish ends when it affects someone else.

Would you agree?

As for the right to commit suicide. Your right. That is between you and whatever God you believe in. After all, the government can't really prevent you if your serious about it.

Of course I would agree, that was why your example was absurd.

The problem with applying it to abortion is that the other person doesn't have legal status as a person therefore the state has no authority in the matter.

I'm not interested in the diverting dishonest arguments and assertions that seem to always go with this issue so this will likely be my last post. I don't need to hear the same old crap that if I think a woman should have the right to choose I think that she should get the abortion - I don't. I don't want to hear what about the man's choice. I don't want to hear how I must think abortion is ok - I don't. I've never seen an honest discussion of this issue and to have anything less seems pointless to me. So good luck to everyone that decides to engage, have fun tearing each other up and accomplishing nothing.

 

[Emma]

As was posted above, if someone is intent on killing themselves, whether it's illegal or not isn't going to matter. I do support this:

FAQs about Death with Dignity

 

[The Illusion]

There are many injustices done to the people of this supposed "free" country. Suicide should be left to the individual. I dont think the government has a right to infringe on the rights of a person to terminate their own life so long as the person that is terminating their own life isnt infringing on the rights of others or making it messy or dangerous for people nearby. I dont think the government should have the authority to step in and make the person be incarcerated due to an act that they feel they would like to commit.

Jamie

Ok lets go with your exceptions shall we? A parent has responsibilities to their children, suicide would HURT their family and the loss of income and parental support would be a direct HURT to the children. Talk to people that have had a loved one commit suicide.

ANYONE that has living family will be infringing on the rights and feelings of those family members by committing suicide. No matter where they kill themselves or how, the Government will end up picking up the tab ( using our tax dollars) to clean up the mess, recover the body and investigate to ensure it was a suicide.

Suicide is a cowards way out. It is very tempting and would solve some problems for the person killing themselves while creating all kind of problems for those they leave behind.

I have had suicidal thoughts and desires my whole life. I do NOT enjoy life nor living. However I have responsibilities to self, to God, to Family. And by the way almost nothing happens to someone for attempting and failing at suicide. They go to a hospital and are evaluated before being released but no legal action is taken against them in most states.

As for failing and not wanting to succeed that is not always true. I chose to use prescription sleeping pills to kill myself the one time I actually tried. My wife called 911 and they saved me. Believe me I wanted to die.

If the ambulance had not come and they had not pumped my stomach it would have worked. The drugs would have cut off my involuntary muscle reaction to continue breathing while I was passed out.

I gave in one time in all my life and hopefully I will never be that weak again. Suicide is selfish and hurtful. It is wrong. The vast majority of people that kill themselves do so over TEMPORARY problems.

You dont have an obligation or responsibility to anyone except yourself. If people are hurt by your committing suicide, then that is on them. They control how they feel, not you or anyone else. It is selfish to think that we cannot commit suicide if we wanted to just because it would hurt someone else. And the God concept...not all people believe in god so they dont have an obligation to that.

 

[brewerboy]

I think people should be allowed to control their own bodies, so sure they should be allowed to, but like Xenophon says, if they really wanted to do it it shouldn't be that hard to succeed so fear of punishment (in this world) shouldn't be much of a deterrent.

So, if I want to control My body to swing a baseball bat and it happens to connect with your head and kill you, government should have no say in that? After all, its My body and I should be able to do whatever I want to do.

BTW. That was an example. Not a threat.

One of our founding fathers said something to the effect of "My right to swing my fist stops when it comes into contact with your nose"

Usually, I'd look up the quote. But for such a dumb question, I'm not gonna bother.

 

[Amanda]

There are many injustices done to the people of this supposed "free" country. Suicide should be left to the individual. I dont think the government has a right to infringe on the rights of a person to terminate their own life so long as the person that is terminating their own life isnt infringing on the rights of others or making it messy or dangerous for people nearby. I dont think the government should have the authority to step in and make the person be incarcerated due to an act that they feel they would like to commit.

Jamie

Ok lets go with your exceptions shall we? A parent has responsibilities to their children, suicide would HURT their family and the loss of income and parental support would be a direct HURT to the children. Talk to people that have had a loved one commit suicide.

ANYONE that has living family will be infringing on the rights and feelings of those family members by committing suicide. No matter where they kill themselves or how, the Government will end up picking up the tab ( using our tax dollars) to clean up the mess, recover the body and investigate to ensure it was a suicide.

Suicide is a cowards way out. It is very tempting and would solve some problems for the person killing themselves while creating all kind of problems for those they leave behind.

I have had suicidal thoughts and desires my whole life. I do NOT enjoy life nor living. However I have responsibilities to self, to God, to Family. And by the way almost nothing happens to someone for attempting and failing at suicide. They go to a hospital and are evaluated before being released but no legal action is taken against them in most states.

As for failing and not wanting to succeed that is not always true. I chose to use prescription sleeping pills to kill myself the one time I actually tried. My wife called 911 and they saved me. Believe me I wanted to die.

If the ambulance had not come and they had not pumped my stomach it would have worked. The drugs would have cut off my involuntary muscle reaction to continue breathing while I was passed out.

I gave in one time in all my life and hopefully I will never be that weak again. Suicide is selfish and hurtful. It is wrong. The vast majority of people that kill themselves do so over TEMPORARY problems.

You dont have an obligation or responsibility to anyone except yourself. If people are hurt by your committing suicide, then that is on them. They control how they feel, not you or anyone else. It is selfish to think that we cannot commit suicide if we wanted to just because it would hurt someone else. And the God concept...not all people believe in god so they dont have an obligation to that.

Are you channeling Ayn Rand?

It's selfish to think our actions don't affect others. Committing suicide is probably the most selfish act 1 can commit. Though abortion is right up there with it.

 

[brewerboy]

Ok lets go with your exceptions shall we? A parent has responsibilities to their children, suicide would HURT their family and the loss of income and parental support would be a direct HURT to the children. Talk to people that have had a loved one commit suicide.

ANYONE that has living family will be infringing on the rights and feelings of those family members by committing suicide. No matter where they kill themselves or how, the Government will end up picking up the tab ( using our tax dollars) to clean up the mess, recover the body and investigate to ensure it was a suicide.

Suicide is a cowards way out. It is very tempting and would solve some problems for the person killing themselves while creating all kind of problems for those they leave behind.

I have had suicidal thoughts and desires my whole life. I do NOT enjoy life nor living. However I have responsibilities to self, to God, to Family. And by the way almost nothing happens to someone for attempting and failing at suicide. They go to a hospital and are evaluated before being released but no legal action is taken against them in most states.

As for failing and not wanting to succeed that is not always true. I chose to use prescription sleeping pills to kill myself the one time I actually tried. My wife called 911 and they saved me. Believe me I wanted to die.

If the ambulance had not come and they had not pumped my stomach it would have worked. The drugs would have cut off my involuntary muscle reaction to continue breathing while I was passed out.

I gave in one time in all my life and hopefully I will never be that weak again. Suicide is selfish and hurtful. It is wrong. The vast majority of people that kill themselves do so over TEMPORARY problems.

You dont have an obligation or responsibility to anyone except yourself. If people are hurt by your committing suicide, then that is on them. They control how they feel, not you or anyone else. It is selfish to think that we cannot commit suicide if we wanted to just because it would hurt someone else. And the God concept...not all people believe in god so they dont have an obligation to that.

Are you channeling Ayn Rand?

It's selfish to think our actions don't affect others. Committing suicide is probably the most selfish act 1 can commit. Though abortion is right up there with it.

Man, you sound like you'd be in favor of "Anti Dog-eat-dog" on that one.

 

[Gudrid]

Really, they can't control their bodies and duck?

That depends on the circumstances, but that would nullify your example, as you would not have hit them with the bat.

 

[Amanda]

You dont have an obligation or responsibility to anyone except yourself. If people are hurt by your committing suicide, then that is on them. They control how they feel, not you or anyone else. It is selfish to think that we cannot commit suicide if we wanted to just because it would hurt someone else. And the God concept...not all people believe in god so they dont have an obligation to that.

Are you channeling Ayn Rand?

It's selfish to think our actions don't affect others. Committing suicide is probably the most selfish act 1 can commit. Though abortion is right up there with it.

Man, you sound like you'd be in favor of "Anti Dog-eat-dog" on that one.

I'm not in favor of dogs eating dogs...

Outcry Over Pets in Pet Food

 

[The Illusion]

Ok lets go with your exceptions shall we? A parent has responsibilities to their children, suicide would HURT their family and the loss of income and parental support would be a direct HURT to the children. Talk to people that have had a loved one commit suicide.

ANYONE that has living family will be infringing on the rights and feelings of those family members by committing suicide. No matter where they kill themselves or how, the Government will end up picking up the tab ( using our tax dollars) to clean up the mess, recover the body and investigate to ensure it was a suicide.

Suicide is a cowards way out. It is very tempting and would solve some problems for the person killing themselves while creating all kind of problems for those they leave behind.

I have had suicidal thoughts and desires my whole life. I do NOT enjoy life nor living. However I have responsibilities to self, to God, to Family. And by the way almost nothing happens to someone for attempting and failing at suicide. They go to a hospital and are evaluated before being released but no legal action is taken against them in most states.

As for failing and not wanting to succeed that is not always true. I chose to use prescription sleeping pills to kill myself the one time I actually tried. My wife called 911 and they saved me. Believe me I wanted to die.

If the ambulance had not come and they had not pumped my stomach it would have worked. The drugs would have cut off my involuntary muscle reaction to continue breathing while I was passed out.

I gave in one time in all my life and hopefully I will never be that weak again. Suicide is selfish and hurtful. It is wrong. The vast majority of people that kill themselves do so over TEMPORARY problems.

You dont have an obligation or responsibility to anyone except yourself. If people are hurt by your committing suicide, then that is on them. They control how they feel, not you or anyone else. It is selfish to think that we cannot commit suicide if we wanted to just because it would hurt someone else. And the God concept...not all people believe in god so they dont have an obligation to that.

Are you channeling Ayn Rand?

It's selfish to think our actions don't affect others. Committing suicide is probably the most selfish act 1 can commit. Though abortion is right up there with it.

How is suicide selfish when the person is doing it for their own wanting? Is it selfish because it would hurt others? I would be more inclined to think that not wanting someone who wants to commit suicide is being selfish...because you would be infringing on the rights of that person to do what he/she wants with their body/life. Thats the selfish act...not the suicide itself.

Jamie

 

[The Illusion]

Thus what if the person wanting to commit suicide is elderly and sick and in pain? How is that selfish?

Jamie

 

[Emma]

Thus what if the person wanting to commit suicide is elderly and sick and in pain? How is that selfish?

Jamie

They don't have to be elderly, but I agree. Denying them that right is selfish.

 

[Amanda]

You dont have an obligation or responsibility to anyone except yourself. If people are hurt by your committing suicide, then that is on them. They control how they feel, not you or anyone else. It is selfish to think that we cannot commit suicide if we wanted to just because it would hurt someone else. And the God concept...not all people believe in god so they dont have an obligation to that.

Are you channeling Ayn Rand?

It's selfish to think our actions don't affect others. Committing suicide is probably the most selfish act 1 can commit. Though abortion is right up there with it.

How is suicide selfish when the person is doing it for their own wanting? Is it selfish because it would hurt others? I would be more inclined to think that not wanting someone who wants to commit suicide is being selfish...because you would be infringing on the rights of that person to do what he/she wants with their body/life. Thats the selfish act...not the suicide itself.

Jamie

Denying someone the right could be seen as selfish too. I never said otherwise, in fact if you recall I supported a person having the right to commit suicide. It's possible to be in favor or something without actually wanting it for yourself. Just ask all the non-gay supporters of gay marriage.

I knew someone would bring up medical reasons. This isn't the same to me because typically close family is aware of the situation and there has been communication. It's not Surprise! Bob's hanging from the rafters! or... Damn, I always used to think Susie looked good in red. I would still consider it selfish if someone did it for medical reasons without talking to their family first. That's really the difference to me, the communication between people.

 

[brewerboy]

Are you channeling Ayn Rand?

It's selfish to think our actions don't affect others. Committing suicide is probably the most selfish act 1 can commit. Though abortion is right up there with it.

Man, you sound like you'd be in favor of "Anti Dog-eat-dog" on that one.

I'm not in favor of dogs eating dogs...

Outcry Over Pets in Pet Food

Nice dodge

 

[Amanda]

Man, you sound like you'd be in favor of "Anti Dog-eat-dog" on that one.

I'm not in favor of dogs eating dogs...

Outcry Over Pets in Pet Food

Nice dodge

It's actually a Honda.

Mostly I don't know what you were getting at and I'm already half way to being seriously drunk, so... hilarity ensues!

 

[The Illusion]

Are you channeling Ayn Rand?

It's selfish to think our actions don't affect others. Committing suicide is probably the most selfish act 1 can commit. Though abortion is right up there with it.

How is suicide selfish when the person is doing it for their own wanting? Is it selfish because it would hurt others? I would be more inclined to think that not wanting someone who wants to commit suicide is being selfish...because you would be infringing on the rights of that person to do what he/she wants with their body/life. Thats the selfish act...not the suicide itself.

Jamie

Denying someone the right could be seen as selfish too. I never said otherwise, in fact if you recall I supported a person having the right to commit suicide. It's possible to be in favor or something without actually wanting it for yourself. Just ask all the non-gay supporters of gay marriage.

I knew someone would bring up medical reasons. This isn't the same to me because typically close family is aware of the situation and there has been communication. It's not Surprise! Bob's hanging from the rafters! or... Damn, I always used to think Susie looked good in red. I would still consider it selfish if someone did it for medical reasons without talking to their family first. That's really the difference to me, the communication between people.

So say that someone wanted to commit suicide and decided to by going about it in a very realistic and responsible way - allowing all of the family members to know what was happening, why, and putting all of your assets and bills in order first.. making sure the kids were going to be taken care of...etc.

What if the government put up a way of making suicide possible through means which involved testing first, counseling maybe..etc. I dont see that as being selfish in any way.

Taking ones life isnt a selfish act - its a realistic act. If someone doesnt want to live and is only causing more grief for themselves by living..why should they have to endure that suffering?

Jamie

 

[Amanda]

How is suicide selfish when the person is doing it for their own wanting? Is it selfish because it would hurt others? I would be more inclined to think that not wanting someone who wants to commit suicide is being selfish...because you would be infringing on the rights of that person to do what he/she wants with their body/life. Thats the selfish act...not the suicide itself.

Jamie

Denying someone the right could be seen as selfish too. I never said otherwise, in fact if you recall I supported a person having the right to commit suicide. It's possible to be in favor or something without actually wanting it for yourself. Just ask all the non-gay supporters of gay marriage.

I knew someone would bring up medical reasons. This isn't the same to me because typically close family is aware of the situation and there has been communication. It's not Surprise! Bob's hanging from the rafters! or... Damn, I always used to think Susie looked good in red. I would still consider it selfish if someone did it for medical reasons without talking to their family first. That's really the difference to me, the communication between people.

So say that someone wanted to commit suicide and decided to by going about it in a very realistic and responsible way - allowing all of the family members to know what was happening, why, and putting all of your assets and bills in order first.. making sure the kids were going to be taken care of...etc.

What if the government put up a way of making suicide possible through means which involved testing first, counseling maybe..etc. I dont see that as being selfish in any way.

Taking ones life isnt a selfish act - its a realistic act. If someone doesnt want to live and is only causing more grief for themselves by living..why should they have to endure that suffering?

Jamie

I think you're putting a lot of effort into slicing and dicing the issue that isn't necessary. No 1 can stop anyone else from committing suicide. No 1 has to be happy about someone else committing suicide. I don't think the current system is flawed enough to want to get government even more involved in our lives.