Striking fear in the hearts...

[koshergrl]

One person complained. One. This is what's known as "tyranny of the minority".

It doesn't matter if it's the 1% or the 99% complaining, it's just a discussion on whether or not official acts of prayer should be permitted in a public school.

Now, if it's some little girl (unprovoked) praying in a sort of impromptu way, that's not a big deal. Whatever, it's a little kid.

But if the prayer was provoked by an adult, or if an adult educator was leading the prayer at the event, then I think things warrant some discussion.


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That's great fascist language. "provoked". "The little girl MUST be interrogated!"

 

[Dot Com]

You dumb *****.

This is a little girl at a mock-up, fake little graduation ceremony for preschoolers. She said a little prayer. Boo ******* hoo, get over it. She does not represent the government, and in no way does her little prayer force anyone else to drop to their knees and worship God Almighty.

Let's just go to war already. It's time to clean you yahoos off the face of the planet.

That’s not very ‘Christian.’

And only the courts can determine if an Establishment Clause violation occurred nor not.

in addition to the above, I busted her for having a potty-mouth yesterday. What she is doing makes baby jesus cry

 

[koshergrl]

Drag that 4-year old in before the interrogation panel!

 

[gallantwarrior]

On one side, we have an anti-christian group raising holy hell because some poor 4-yr old spoke the name "Jesus" during an invocation at a mock pre-school graduation. On the other hand, we have an unnatural freak being celebrated as some kind of hero telling everybody he wants to **** boys as he addresses a high school graduating class and their guests.

What is wrong with this picture?

Http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gay-graduation-speech-texas-high-school-140514317.html

 

[KevinWestern]

That's great fascist language. "provoked". "The little girl MUST be interrogated!"

?

She's a preschool kid. If she's going to go up on a podium and present a prayer, there's a good chance that she was encouraged to do so by an adult. Kids generally don't plan out presentations at that age.

 

[KevinWestern]

You like to throw the word "promote" around too much to skew any replies to your posts.

ALLOWING a Muslim to pray is not promoting.

You're being nitpicky, lol. I'm just trying to get a point across.

Would you feel comfortable if your 8-year-old's public school teacher recited various prayers from the Koran before every class?




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[KevinWestern]

On one side, we have an anti-christian group raising holy hell because some poor 4-yr old spoke the name "Jesus" during an invocation at a mock pre-school graduation. On the other hand, we have an unnatural freak being celebrated as some kind of hero telling everybody he wants to **** boys as he addresses a high school graduating class and their guests.

What is wrong with this picture?

Http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gay-graduation-speech-texas-high-school-140514317.html

The single event of a girl saying Jesus isn't that big of a deal, however if you want to remain respectful to all religions and creeds it's good practice to shy away from referencing singular religions within a publicly funded school environment. That's all, and the point I'm making.

And "unnatural freak"? Pretty harsh language towards someone you don't even know.

.

 

[Unkotare]

What is it about prayer, specifically christian prayer, that so terrifies athiests and others without some other religious avocation? Why is it that even the whispered hint of christian murmurings sends these loonbats streaking off to litigation? What are they afraid of? Words? And yet, they continue to demand that their "faith" be honored and respected.

They fear that they are lacking something fundamentally human - something they don't or can't understand but that they feel intuitively that they should have. They are afraid to take a look inside themselves and see a yawning chasm where something essential to the human condition should be. They are terrified at the notion that there is something true that they can never fully grasp because they have been taught all their lives that there shouldn't be any such thing. Ironically, a true scientist will be the first to admit that we will never know and/or understand everything. It takes some courage to accept that once you start thinking about it. Fear and ego manifest in such people as arrogance and dismissiveness (sometimes even anger).

 

[Dot Com]

That's great fascist language. "provoked". "The little girl MUST be interrogated!"

?

She's a preschool kid. If she's going to go up on a podium and present a prayer, there's a good chance that she was encouraged to do so by an adult. Kids generally don't plan out presentations at that age.

unless people like koshergirl or gallantwarrior force them to memorize it in order to "score" a political point.

 

[KevinWestern]

They fear that they are lacking something fundamentally human - something they don't or can't understand but that they feel intuitively that they should have. They are afraid to take a look inside themselves and see a yawning chasm where something essential to the human condition should be. They are terrified at the notion that there is something true that they can never fully grasp because they have been taught all their lives that there shouldn't be any such thing. Ironically, a true scientist will be the first to admit that we will never know and/or understand everything. It takes some courage to accept that once you start thinking about it. Fear and ego manifest in such people as arrogance and dismissiveness (sometimes even anger).

Unkotare, you've really got it all wrong.

it's very possible for someone to reject the notion that Jesus Christ is the savior and at the same time be an extremely spiritual person who is ever-questioning and ever-searching for answers as to who we are, why we're here, etc. It's wholly possible for someone to not believe in the bible word for word, or at all, and still believe that there’s a higher presence out there that they can’t quite put their hand on (but they know its there). Religion is one thing, spirituality is another.

No one here said that general spirituality should be strictly prohibited at school.

I’m just making the point that references to specific man-made, structured religions should be kept to an absolute minimum by public educators, because we should not have state officials singling out favorites.

State/Church should be kept separate.

Americans have a million other appropriate outlets (Churches, websites, block parties, private community gatherings, music festivals, etc) to express their views on their own particular religion. Just keep it out of publicly funded arenas - like schools.


.

 

[koshergrl]

A public educator didn't make the reference.

Teacup tempest averted.

 

[Unkotare]

They fear that they are lacking something fundamentally human - something they don't or can't understand but that they feel intuitively that they should have. They are afraid to take a look inside themselves and see a yawning chasm where something essential to the human condition should be. They are terrified at the notion that there is something true that they can never fully grasp because they have been taught all their lives that there shouldn't be any such thing. Ironically, a true scientist will be the first to admit that we will never know and/or understand everything. It takes some courage to accept that once you start thinking about it. Fear and ego manifest in such people as arrogance and dismissiveness (sometimes even anger).

Unkotare, you've really got it all wrong.

it's very possible for someone to reject the notion that Jesus Christ is the savior and at the same time be an extremely spiritual person who is ever-questioning and ever-searching for answers as to who we are, why we're here, etc. It's wholly possible for someone to not believe in the bible word for word, or at all, and still believe that there’s a higher presence out there that they can’t quite put their hand on (but they know its there). Religion is one thing, spirituality is another.

No one here said that general spirituality should be strictly prohibited at school.

I’m just making the point that references to specific man-made, structured religions should be kept to an absolute minimum by public educators, because we should not have state officials singling out favorites.

State/Church should be kept separate.

Americans have a million other appropriate outlets (Churches, websites, block parties, private community gatherings, music festivals, etc) to express their views on their own particular religion. Just keep it out of publicly funded arenas - like schools.


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I didn't say anything about Christianity, the Bible, or people who misinterpret the idea of a separation of Church and State. If you're going to quote my words, you should at least bother to read them.

 

[KevinWestern]

A public educator didn't make the reference.

Teacup tempest averted.

Do preschool-aged children generally take the initiative to proactively lead a group (at a graduation ceremony) in prayer? Just on a whim?

Kosher, I think it's pretty likely the little girl was guided by an adult on the matter.


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[KevinWestern]

I didn't say anything about Christianity, the Bible, or people who misinterpret the idea of a separation of Church and State. If you're going to quote my words, you should at least bother to read them.

Gallant Warrior's post specifically mentioned Christian prayer, saying people were "afraid of it" and that's why we have this uproar. You seemed to agree in your post.

I responded to you and said this is not a case of people being afraid of Christian prayer, it's instead a case of people not wanting prayers of a specific religion in a publicly funded area, because that shows favoritism (in what should be a neutral zone) and is therefore inappropriate.

I don't know, perhaps I misunderstood your post. But in the context of the string, it appeared as though you were agreeing with Gallant...


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[gallantwarrior]

They fear that they are lacking something fundamentally human - something they don't or can't understand but that they feel intuitively that they should have. They are afraid to take a look inside themselves and see a yawning chasm where something essential to the human condition should be. They are terrified at the notion that there is something true that they can never fully grasp because they have been taught all their lives that there shouldn't be any such thing. Ironically, a true scientist will be the first to admit that we will never know and/or understand everything. It takes some courage to accept that once you start thinking about it. Fear and ego manifest in such people as arrogance and dismissiveness (sometimes even anger).

Unkotare, you've really got it all wrong.

it's very possible for someone to reject the notion that Jesus Christ is the savior and at the same time be an extremely spiritual person who is ever-questioning and ever-searching for answers as to who we are, why we're here, etc. It's wholly possible for someone to not believe in the bible word for word, or at all, and still believe that there’s a higher presence out there that they can’t quite put their hand on (but they know its there). Religion is one thing, spirituality is another.

No one here said that general spirituality should be strictly prohibited at school.

I’m just making the point that references to specific man-made, structured religions should be kept to an absolute minimum by public educators, because we should not have state officials singling out favorites.

State/Church should be kept separate.

Americans have a million other appropriate outlets (Churches, websites, block parties, private community gatherings, music festivals, etc) to express their views on their own particular religion. Just keep it out of publicly funded arenas - like schools.


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I fundamentally agree with your contention that religious expression has many other, more appropriate outlets than a public school. My main objection is the absolute hypocrisy demonstrated by some who make such a monumental stink about such a small, and supposedly inconsequential thing as a prayer. If you do not place any credence in such things, why such an uproar. Unless you fear some repercussion, why mention such small things at all.
The other issue is, gravy for the goose should be gravy for the gander. If religion should be taboo for certain public situations, so should someone's sexual preferences. Both are private issues that need only be shared with one's closer circle.

 

[gallantwarrior]

A public educator didn't make the reference.

Teacup tempest averted.

Do preschool-aged children generally take the initiative to proactively lead a group (at a graduation ceremony) in prayer? Just on a whim?

Kosher, I think it's pretty likely the little girl was guided by an adult on the matter.


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That would depend on the influences in that child's life. If her parents were devout, she might already have much exposure to public events opening with prayers. Particularly if you consider her experience of "public events" was primarily going to church with her family.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

One person complained. One. This is what's known as "tyranny of the minority".

And?

The Constitution doesn’t require a specific number of persons to have their civil liberties violated before a government act can be considered un-Constitutional.

Clarence Gideon was ‘only one’ person who ‘complained.’

And there is no ‘tyranny of the minority,’ as matters concerning prayer in public schools has been subject to decades of judicial review, where its prohibition is settled and accepted case law.