Stone to rehablitate Hilter Stalin and Mao.

[Sodafin]

Gary -

I think in the minds of most people, at the time clear and overwhelming evidence is presented, it's time to stop lecturing and start looking at that evidence.

I have posted links to 2 models - both of which clearly establish that totalitarianism can exist on the right wing.

I have cited 3 actual examples from the real world.

I have also mentioned 2 of the most well established books which would also explain and confirm this. I could happily list another dozen if you want.

None of this information was 'left wing' nor from a left wing source.

You have not listened to, or looked at, any of that information. And you won't.

Luckily, you live in a country where you do have the right to remain ignorant if you so choose.

 

[garyd]

And my argument is that calling any of them right wing for the reasons you have listed them as such is a rather pointless exercise in leftist self justification and has little backing for it other than the fact that left wingers lacking any real pretense at logic need a club with which to whack those of us on the right.

Is Pnochet to the right of Mao? Of Course. Is he to the right of Libertarians hardly. And trying to pretend that he is is simply foolish.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

You seem allergic to facts not pulled out of your own ass, but this, I think should be a convincer for anyone that the difference between communism and Nazism is just the tailoring of the uniforms.

Note he says "The Classes and the races....must perish in the revolutionary holocaust" He is talking about final solution right there. Marx is the intellectual grandfather of Hitler, and Hitler acknowledged the debt. Hitler was against anything that I think of as "Right wing."
He was anti free market, he was for state control of everything and government interference in every aspect of a citizens life, and making every citizen a tool of the state. Where is any of that right wing?

I am not saying Hitler is any less bad, I am saying we have to get away form the concept that "our vampires are better because their bloodthirst is more politically correct."

 

[Bfgrn]

It is quite clear that many on the left choose for reasons of their own to except a modeled that is unacceptably flawed and in fact quite illogical. But if it's the only way you can live with your political choices well whatever floats your boat I guess. Get ouside that political straight jacket in which you've chosen to incarcerate your self read and think logically about something other than self justification which is the only reason to assume that Hiler was in any significant way different than Joe Stalin on any issue.

As i said I am quite familiar with the model you profess. And I find it illogical, and utterly unecessay and outside any pretense at historical fact. It is in fact little more than picking at nits.

garyd...the extremely flawed and illogical political straight jacket you live in is American parochialism. You are framing the world strictly from an American perspective based on American ideals and American beliefs.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. were NOT born and raised in Kansas by Auntie Em

What's truly ironic about this whole war is that the conservatives in our country do not seem to realize that the Taliban is simply an extreme version of the same primal impulse that drives them.

In every population there is a distribution of conservative to progressive, aggressive to peaceful, etc. The famous classical game theoretic model, the Hawk-Dove contest, shows that the evolutionarily stable population in that model is not all hawks or all doves, but rather a certain degree of each; in that model, 58% "doves" and 42% "hawks". It stands to reason that it is expected that you will have both types of personality in your population. Similarly, I believe a stable distribution of political sensibility is probably one with both progressive and conservative elements.

Of course, it's funny how the same personality type seems to latch on to radically different ideas depending on the society. "Conservatives" here profess a belief in capitalism and extol the virtues of the good old days of the 1950's, a half century ago; "conservatives" in Russia pine for the bygone days of the stability of the old Soviet empire. I believe that the propensity in conservatives is not towards ideologies per se, but rather towards status quo versus change. I'd bet you'd find much more psychologically (and perhaps genetically?) similar between conservatives here and in Russia, despite the fact that they profess supposedly opposite nostalgias.

But of course a typical conservative doesn't look at the conservatism of their enemy and learn to moderate themselves; they see the enemy as an "other", as confirmation of their own rigid views, despite the evident similarity between the two stances.
M Hadeishi

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Gary -

I think in the minds of most people, at the time clear and overwhelming evidence is presented, it's time to stop lecturing and start looking at that evidence.

I have posted links to 2 models - both of which clearly establish that totalitarianism can exist on the right wing.

I have cited 3 actual examples from the real world.

I have also mentioned 2 of the most well established books which would also explain and confirm this. I could happily list another dozen if you want.

None of this information was 'left wing' nor from a left wing source.

You have not listened to, or looked at, any of that information. And you won't.

Luckily, you live in a country where you do have the right to remain ignorant if you so choose.

You keep using models , not examples of how the policies are "right wing" You have been given plenty of proof that the Nazi party was in practice, and born of the hard left.

Im sure there was something there for everybody at some point thats how politics works .

Why not us the pretzel model to prove Ronald Regan was a clone of Hitler, Sarah Palin is Eve Bruan and Glenn Beck is their love child.

 

[L.K.Eder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4758sBZLC5k&feature=player_embedded

timeline 1:10
HITLERITE'RIOT IN BERLIN.; Beer Glasses Fly When Speaker Compares Hitler and Lenin.
Who was the speaker?
None other than Dr Goebbels
HITLERITE'RIOT IN BERLIN.; Beer Glasses Fly When Speaker Compares Hitl... - Free Preview - The New York Times

Hell if you cant trust the NYT circa 1930 who can you trust?

the nazi party persecuted and killed the members of the left-wing parties, within and outside of the nazi party. and cooperated and fused with the right-wing parties.

goebbels started as poetry writerand journalist with socialist tendencies, he was a follower of g. strasser and criticized hitler in the beginning for hitlers anti-socialist rhetoric. hitler, however won the fight, not goebbels or strasser. strasser did not get the hint. goebbels did. that is why goebbels lost his socialist tendencies, and strasser his life.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4758sBZLC5k&feature=player_embedded

timeline 1:10
HITLERITE'RIOT IN BERLIN.; Beer Glasses Fly When Speaker Compares Hitler and Lenin.
Who was the speaker?
None other than Dr Goebbels
HITLERITE'RIOT IN BERLIN.; Beer Glasses Fly When Speaker Compares Hitl... - Free Preview - The New York Times

Hell if you cant trust the NYT circa 1930 who can you trust?

the nazi party persecuted and killed the members of the left-wing parties, within and outside of the nazi party. and cooperated and fused with the right-wing parties.

goebbels started as poetry writerand journalist with socialist tendencies, he was a follower of g. strasser and criticized hitler in the beginning for hitlers anti-socialist rhetoric. hitler, however won the fight, not goebbels or strasser. strasser did not get the hint. goebbels did. that is why goebbels lost his socialist tendencies, and strasser his life.

Nicely sourced opinion.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Hell if you cant trust the NYT circa 1930 who can you trust?

the nazi party persecuted and killed the members of the left-wing parties, within and outside of the nazi party. and cooperated and fused with the right-wing parties.

goebbels started as poetry writerand journalist with socialist tendencies, he was a follower of g. strasser and criticized hitler in the beginning for hitlers anti-socialist rhetoric. hitler, however won the fight, not goebbels or strasser. strasser did not get the hint. goebbels did. that is why goebbels lost his socialist tendencies, and strasser his life.

Nicely sourced opinion.

which part do you want to have sourced? btw, i posted this several times and with sources on this board. i will do it again, if you tell me which part.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Source the proof that the socialists leanings where lost rather than hidden.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Source the proof that the socialists leanings where lost rather than hidden.

ok, that is stupid. how should i prove that e.g. goebbels has remained a socialist by heart until he killed self, but to the outside he was a loyal supporter of hitler?

gregor strasser was the leader of the socialist wing of the nsdap. in the 20's, there was a lot of infighting in the party. especially after it had been forbidden and hitler was in prison. they then refounded th party, and there was a northern-german left wing and a bavarian right wing. when they continued to suck in the many weimar republic elections, they tried other strategies, for example a right wing coalition, called the harzburg front in 1931. after esp. bad election result in EDIT: 1928 they stopped using their socialistic rhetoric targeted at workers, which caused a split. OTTO strasser left the party, and subsequently the country. that is why he survived. i will not source this, btw. this is uncontested history. and you yourself agree, when you post a goebbels speech from 1925. the relevant part however is what the nazi party did when they were in power. and that was first to get rid of the opposition, imprisoning and killing social-dems, communists et al., and forcing other right wing parties to join. the inner purge came 1934, that is when the socialist GREGOR strasser was killed. it is called the röhm-putsch, named after the homosexual SA chieftain, who was purged, too. it is also called the night of the long knives.

i should not have entered this head against the wall subject again. for those interested, just look up the brothers strasser. otto and gregor.

 

[Big Fitz]

I have posted links to 2 models - both of which clearly establish that totalitarianism can exist on the right wing.

Yes you have, but have failed to change the fact that the German National Socialist Workers Party and American Liberalism are identical in nearly every way.

You have not listened to, or looked at, any of that information. And you won't.

No. You're making a fundamental mistake here. Listening and looking at information does NOT mean you must agree with the outcome.

Also, maybe I've missed it, but you haven't dealt with how key planks in the Nazi platforms and practices are dissimilar to the American Leftists.

It's the man not the uniform that's the issue here.

 

[garyd]

LK et al. Sorry no luck gentlemen. I was studing Asian and African history when you cowns were in knee pants.

What I am detailing here is a systematic historical method of looking at the political line up as it ascends through ever more centralized control. I will not accept a political line in which various leftist nits pull things out of sequence and stuff them in where they want almost seemingly at random for no good reason beyond personal preference. and the desire to make some one else look bad.

 

[Political Junky]

Many American conservatives supported Hitler in the 1930s.

 

[Cecilie1200]

What context excatly do mass murderers need?

And how unbiased can his "context" and perspective be if he's lumping McCarthy in with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao?

 

[Cecilie1200]

By the end of Napolean's life. He was vilified throughout europe as an evil person.

But now in France he is hailed as a patriot and a hero.

As time goes by and generations pass.

Hitler will also be rehabilited. It's just the way things happen over time.

Firstly - you really haven't spent a lot of time in Germany recently, have you?

Hitler is vilified in Germany - he is remembered as the man who disgraced Germany, who destroyed the economy and the infrastructure, and stained the name of German people forever.

Secondly -

Napoleon was never really a dictator at home.

The reputation of dictators has tended to get worse over time - not better.

Are you also going to claim that the Romanian people will come to miss Ceacescu, that the Albanians will miss Xoxha or the Paraguayans miss Stroessner?

Baruch -

Given Hitler was right wing, and Stone left wing, I strongly doubt Stone is going to praise him, somehow.

Right wing? Seriously? You're really dumb enough to try to apply the American political spectrum to historical dictators?

 

[Big Fitz]

Many American conservatives supported Hitler in the 1930s.

February 20, 1939. Madison Square Garden

Shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and the declaration of war on America by Germany thanks to the Tripartate Treaty, the American Bund fell apart. Of course this was helped along with many anti-nazi legal actions as well as corruption on the part of the leader embezzling funds from the Bund.

I'm betting that after the camps a Birkenau, Teretzin and many many more came to light, they were glad they turned away from their flirtation with national socialism before it bore it's true fruit.

 

[Sodafin]

Right wing? Seriously? You're really dumb enough to try to apply the American political spectrum to historical dictators?

It isn't an AMERICAN spectrum. The model is actually French.

Furthermore, most of the examples I have cited are not historical - they are current.

 

[Dr Grump]

Right wing? Seriously? You're really dumb enough to try to apply the American political spectrum to historical dictators?

It isn't an AMERICAN spectrum. The model is actually French.

Furthermore, most of the examples I have cited are not historical - they are current.

Hitler absolutely was right wing. Cesspit is one of those ijits who think because the word "socialist" is in the Nazi name they were socialists, which of course explains why the Nazis and Communists in Germany hated each others' guts...

 

[Sodafin]

Cesspit is one of those ijits who think because the word "socialist" is in the Nazi name they were socialists, which of course explains why the Nazis and Communists in Germany hated each others' guts...

There seem to have been a half dozen posters here who have really got the wrong end of the stick on this one.

I've been really surprised, I haven't heard anyone actually dispute this before, and it is not as if there is not enough information on the net for people to learn about Nazism and find out exactly why it is considered right wing.

It is a bit of a worry to realise a lot of people are able to come through the school/college system without even basic knowledge of political theory.

Gary -

LK et al. Sorry no luck gentlemen.

When you are disputing a point you could confirm yourself with 5 minutes on google - this kind of self congratulation just makes you look very, very silly.

You are wrong, you must realise yourself you are wrong, and this wild and empty boasting impresses no one.

Fitnah -

You keep using models , not examples of how the policies are "right wing"

True. This is because if people are not listening, there is little point talking.

It would take me 20 mins to write a solid and verifiable definition of why Nazism is right wing - do you really think Gary or yourself are going to bother to read it?

Why should I waste my time?

 

[Dr Grump]

There seem to have been a half dozen posters here who have really got the wrong end of the stick on this one.

I've been really surprised, I haven't heard anyone actually dispute this before, and it is not as if there is not enough information on the net for people to learn about Nazism and find out exactly why it is considered right wing.

It is a bit of a worry to realise a lot of people are able to come through the school/college system without even basic knowledge of political theory.

Gary -

Same here. There are a couple here who should know better, but others it's to be expected.

Not 100 percent sure (but 99 percent) that LK is German, so I'd take his/her knowledge over others on this board on the subject...