States with teachers unions have the best test scores

[Harry Dresden]

Correlation does not suggest causation. In this case, bucs is right. Liberals are generally more intelligent than conservatives; Liberals tend to be pro-union. Hence, there is a noticeable correlation, but it is not necessarily because one causes the other.

if they are more Intelligent.....how come they havent taken over?....

 

[Agit8r]

Or, just a possibility, the study that found that to be true is flawed.

First, it fails to define liberalism v conservatism. Are they using the traditional definition of liberal, which is all about the individual over the sate, or do we use the modern definition, which is about the group over the individual?

Second, what is it that makes anyone think that liberalism is evolutionary novel? Evolution is about change, and the modern idea that conservatism opposes change sounds more evolutionary novel than liberalism to me.

Third, liberals seem to have a hard time dealing with the evolution of political power today. They are insisting that the old structures will work, and that the ultimate outcome of their policies is not leading to the problems it obviously is. Is it really intelligent to insist that conservatives are to blame for the problems that they had little to do with? Liberals have been in charge of the government, media, industry, and education for decades, yet things keep getting worse. Yet, somehow, conservatives are the less intelligent people because they refuse to acknowledge the inherent superiority of liberals.

There has been a debate for years about the validity of IQ tests. Perhaps the reason liberals generally score higher on IQ tests is that they are actually testing for liberal tendencies, and not actual intelligence.

"traditional definition of liberal, which is all about the individual over the s[t]ate"

care to explain wtf you are talking about?

Classical liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New Left - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern liberalism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Learn for yourself, the history of liberalism is amazing.

Liberalism is the guarantee of individual rights. Those are guaranteed BY a state. The state exists for that purpose. If it doesn't, then it is an impostor. But if you have too little government your rights are not protected. As Madison put it: "Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions. Where there is an excess of liberty, the effect is the same, tho' from an opposite cause."

 

[DiveCon]

so, because conservative are against just throwing money at a problem(in this case education) they are against education?

 

[bucs90]

"traditional definition of liberal, which is all about the individual over the s[t]ate"

care to explain wtf you are talking about?

Classical liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New Left - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern liberalism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Learn for yourself, the history of liberalism is amazing.

Liberalism is the guarantee of individual rights. Those are guaranteed BY a state. The state exists for that purpose. If it doesn't, then it is an impostor. But if you have too little government your rights are not protected. As Madison put it: "Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions. Where there is an excess of liberty, the effect is the same, tho' from an opposite cause."

The left wing "states" of North Korea, China, Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, etc, haven't done very good a job of protecting those individual rights.

 

[Agit8r]

Classical liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New Left - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern liberalism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Learn for yourself, the history of liberalism is amazing.

Liberalism is the guarantee of individual rights. Those are guaranteed BY a state. The state exists for that purpose. If it doesn't, then it is an impostor. But if you have too little government your rights are not protected. As Madison put it: "Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions. Where there is an excess of liberty, the effect is the same, tho' from an opposite cause."

The left wing "states" of North Korea, China, Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, etc, haven't done very good a job of protecting those individual rights.

That would be an excess of power. Not sure that Venezuela belongs in the same company as the others, though

 

[bucs90]

Liberalism is the guarantee of individual rights. Those are guaranteed BY a state. The state exists for that purpose. If it doesn't, then it is an impostor. But if you have too little government your rights are not protected. As Madison put it: "Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions. Where there is an excess of liberty, the effect is the same, tho' from an opposite cause."

The left wing "states" of North Korea, China, Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, etc, haven't done very good a job of protecting those individual rights.

That would be an excess of power. Not sure that Venezuela belongs in the same company as the others, though

Oh it does for sure. Chavez is grabbing as much power and control as Castro did when he came up. Nationalizing industry, etc. Venezuela has gone far left socialist, borderline communist. Dangerous situation.

 

[Harry Dresden]

well i live in a pretty liberal State that has Teachers Unions.....when i first came out here in 68.....my folks were told that California was # 4 in the Nation in Educational quality......now the last i heard they were something like # 48.....what the hell happened?....

 

[Agit8r]

The left wing "states" of North Korea, China, Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, etc, haven't done very good a job of protecting those individual rights.

That would be an excess of power. Not sure that Venezuela belongs in the same company as the others, though

Oh it does for sure. Chavez is grabbing as much power and control as Castro did when he came up. Nationalizing industry, etc. Venezuela has gone far left socialist, borderline communist. Dangerous situation.

There haven't been mass killings of dissenters. "nationalizing industry" Sheeit. England did that

 

[bucs90]

That would be an excess of power. Not sure that Venezuela belongs in the same company as the others, though

Oh it does for sure. Chavez is grabbing as much power and control as Castro did when he came up. Nationalizing industry, etc. Venezuela has gone far left socialist, borderline communist. Dangerous situation.

There haven't been mass killings of dissenters. "nationalizing industry" Sheeit. England did that

Not yet.

See, left wing ideology is like cancer. Sometimes it's benign (like Norway or Sweden) and other times it's malignant (like USSR, China, Cuba). Some times it's small and grows worse, over time, like Venezuela, or like skin cancer.


Me? I'd rather just not have cancer.

 

[rdean]

Republicans don't care about teachers or education. They just want someone to "blame" and "hate". I didn't see this coming. In the last couple of years, it's been Hispanics, Muslims, gays, the government and blacks. Lately, it's been women's rights and teachers. I would have thought they would stay with Hispanics and Muslims. I was surprised they singled out a group that has such little impact. Of course, so do Muslims and gays so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise.

Well, they're dumb *****. Their policies are a disaster. They fail at everything they touch, except bringing the country down. So at least they're consistent.

 

[bucs90]

Republicans don't care about teachers or education. They just want someone to "blame" and "hate". I didn't see this coming. In the last couple of years, it's been Hispanics, Muslims, gays, the government and blacks. Lately, it's been women's rights and teachers. I would have thought they would stay with Hispanics and Muslims. I was surprised they singled out a group that has such little impact. Of course, so do Muslims and gays so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise.

Well, they're dumb *****. Their policies are a disaster. They fail at everything they touch, except bringing the country down. So at least they're consistent.

Someone to "blame" and "hate"? You mean like the unions are blaming and hating the WI governor, who THEY elected?

If we are so dumb, but are winning this ideological fight in America, and looking like we'll keep winning more elections, then what does that make the left?

 

[jgarden]

In the middle of a deficit crisis the Republicans first priority was to continue to extend "tax cuts" to the wealthy - the one group that best afford to pay because it already controls most of the private wealth in America.

In order to compensate for this major loss source of revenue from the wealthy, the conservatives have now decided to "demonize" unionized labor, public school teachers and government - thereby pitting the middle and working classes against each other to determine who is going to take the financial "hit" to pay for this decision.

There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.
New York Times, November 26, 2006.

It's class warfare, my class is winning, but they shouldn't be.
CNN Interview, May 25 2005, in arguing the need to raise taxes on the rich.

The 400 of us (at the fundraiser) pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you're in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.
Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat political fundraiser in New York, as quoted in "Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary", Times Online, June 28, 2007.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett

Mission accomplished, the wealthy friends of the GOP can now sitting comfortably on the sidelines, watching this Republican orchestrated "bloodletting" between the 2 classes that already have been financially battered - while the "richest class" laughs all the way to the bank with its more than generous "tax cuts!"

 

[NotImpressed]

Teachers unions exist only to protect the substandard teachers in them?

BULLSHIT.

that is like saying that the Catholic religion only exists to protect pedophile priests.
Which is also BS.

Not solely to protect sub-par teachers but it's a big part of the problem in the democrat/union/teacher relationship. It's a scratch my back & I'll scratch yours arrangement. The democrats get votes from unionized teachers. Unions lobby & make large contributions to elected officials & candidates. Palms get greased & voila,the money machine keeps rolling. In the process,teachers that are substandard get the same protection as the ones who are doing their job to the level of their pay or better. Even the ones who are too stupid to teach our children are just barely smart enough to know not to resist or bite the hands that feed them. By the stats vs other countries who are kicking our ass in the education race,the obvious assessment is that the majority of our teachers suck. Countries that pay their teachers much less & spend much less on education are making us look like we only have a special education system in comparison. Common sense should be screaming get rid of unions & the dead weight will go with them. But liberals who claim to value education so much also claim to be more intelligent than conservatives.

"Countries that pay their teachers much less & spend much less on education"

and which countries would that be?

My pc is running like a slug. I did a google search for "world education rankings" & "how the U.S. rates in education". I read it in 2-3 different articles that basically were using the same stats from the same study of world education rates. I was just reading an article about China & how they are at the top of the heap now. I don't know what they spend on education though because my pc keeps freezing up when I try to open other web pages. At some point I will attempt a reboot & I will try to get back to you about your question.

 

[bucs90]

Let's view this trashing of the nations teachers on a broader context.

1. In the face of a deficit crisis, the Republican's first priority was to demanded that proposed "tax cuts" be extended to the wealth

2. Having reduced the taxes on the one group that already controls most of the private wealth in America, next on the Republican agenda is to target particular groups in society as "scapegoats" - organized labor, teachers and government workers.

3. The Republicans have set the stage for the middle and working classes

Correct.

Or to sum it up in shorter terms: We're taking money OUT of government's hands, and putting it, or leaving it, in the hands of the citizens.

Thats the basic, fundamental concept. Smaller government means government spends less AND takes less. And we are doing what we said we would when we won elections. We're doing it. Suck it up.

 

[jgarden]

Let's view this trashing of the nations teachers on a broader context.

1. In the face of a deficit crisis, the Republican's first priority was to demanded that proposed "tax cuts" be extended to the wealth

2. Having reduced the taxes on the one group that already controls most of the private wealth in America, next on the Republican agenda is to target particular groups in society as "scapegoats" - organized labor, teachers and government workers.

3. The Republicans have set the stage for the middle and working classes

Correct.

Or to sum it up in shorter terms: We're taking money OUT of government's hands, and putting it, or leaving it, in the hands of the citizens.

Thats the basic, fundamental concept. Smaller government means government spends less AND takes less. And we are doing what we said we would when we won elections. We're doing it. Suck it up.

There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.
New York Times, November 26, 2006.

It's class warfare, my class is winning, but they shouldn't be.
CNN Interview, May 25 2005, in arguing the need to raise taxes on the rich.

The 400 of us (at the fundraiser) pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you're in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.
Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat political fundraiser in New York, as quoted in "Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary", Times Online, June 28, 2007.

Warren Buffett - Wikiquote

Warren Buffett, the 2nd richest man in America, would disagree!

The wealthy want the kind of government that will serve the best interests of this small minority, BUT not a government that serves the best interests of the rest of Americans who constitute the vast majority.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"traditional definition of liberal, which is all about the individual over the s[t]ate"

care to explain wtf you are talking about?

Classical liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New Left - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern liberalism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Learn for yourself, the history of liberalism is amazing.

Liberalism is the guarantee of individual rights. Those are guaranteed BY a state. The state exists for that purpose. If it doesn't, then it is an impostor. But if you have too little government your rights are not protected. As Madison put it: "Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions. Where there is an excess of liberty, the effect is the same, tho' from an opposite cause."

Rights are not guaranteed by a state. Rights exist even if the state wants to deny them. Unless you think the people in Iran, Bahrain, and other states that are oppressing their people have no rights.

As for the excess of liberty being bad, I could point out that in Egypt the people got together and set up security in Tahrir Square. In the midst of anarchy liberty prevailed.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

well i live in a pretty liberal State that has Teachers Unions.....when i first came out here in 68.....my folks were told that California was # 4 in the Nation in Educational quality......now the last i heard they were something like # 48.....what the hell happened?....

That does kind of blow the OP theme apart, doesn't it?

 

[California Girl]

Correlation does not suggest causation. In this case, bucs is right. Liberals are generally more intelligent than conservatives; Liberals tend to be pro-union. Hence, there is a noticeable correlation, but it is not necessarily because one causes the other.

That is bullshit. Pure. Simple. Bullshit.

ummm... I'm sorry if it's incompatible with your POV, but it's a fact. It's been true throughout history.

edit: Perhaps it would be more proper to say that intelligent people tend to be more liberal. Back to the causation vs. correlation argument.

It's not at all incompatible, because it's not true. If it's not true, then it's of no actual consequence. It's bullshit.

 

[California Girl]

Republicans don't care about teachers or education. They just want someone to "blame" and "hate". I didn't see this coming. In the last couple of years, it's been Hispanics, Muslims, gays, the government and blacks. Lately, it's been women's rights and teachers. I would have thought they would stay with Hispanics and Muslims. I was surprised they singled out a group that has such little impact. Of course, so do Muslims and gays so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise.

Well, they're dumb *****. Their policies are a disaster. They fail at everything they touch, except bringing the country down. So at least they're consistent.

Sweetie, repetitive stupidity is not a good thing. I don't blame your political ideology for your stupidity, I blame your lack of intellect. But, at least you are consistent..... consistently stupid, consistently a liar, consistently a race baiting fool.

I find it offensive that you will, day in and day out, lie like a politician about how Republicans 'hate' gays, hispanics, Muslims, blacks or anyone else. This is bullshit, it is deliberate fear mongering put about by moronic, racist politicians to further their political agenda. I hope that you do honestly believe it though, because if you do believe it, it just makes you stupid. If you don't believe it, but you repeat it anyway.... well.... that makes you a racist.

 

[JFK_USA]

The funny thing is conservatives think that paying teachers less is magically going to make teachers better. Wrong.

The best want to be compensated. Some of those really good teachers leave to work for tutoring services because they make more. You want an all around educated workforce, you need to have the best teach in schools.