Stand and be counted or sit down and shut up: Reflections on Colin as a patriot

[Billo_Really]

She took a stand on a bus, and made a point for the good. Kneeling at a national event for something that white people get the worse of than blacks is whinning .

He's making the same point Rosa Parks did. Racial inequality.

Why is it the only people Trump doesn't go after are white supremacists and Vladimir Putin?

 

[Billo_Really]

Na, he's just a very shitty quarterback, football player for that matter.

We have a very shitty President, he still gets to keep his job.

 

[Billo_Really]

Nice to see you don't care about this country.

 

[Billo_Really]

/---/ Actually that is what the founding fathers had in mind. A Government by the people, of the people and for the people. Nowhere do they mention your corrupt career politicians.

Then why did you vote for them?

 

[Billo_Really]

How is this different? View attachment 151175

That's easy. Separation of church and state. Don't bring God into my football game.

 

[Billo_Really]

No, that is only your opinion, but I understand you libs tend to confuse that with actual law, so it is understandable.

Are you saying Rex Tillerson was not the head of Exxon?

Are you saying Donald Trump was not a reality TV star?

Are you saying Mike Flynn did not lobby for Turkey?

You are so full of shit, I can't even begin to count how much.

 

[Billo_Really]

The hottest fires of Hell are for such blasphemies in regard to St Tom, dude.

Hey, I'm a Laker fan. I hate anything that has to do with Boston.

 

[Billo_Really]

The difference is that Trump has made numerous tweets and speeches about Kaepernick.

Obama made none about Tebow.

The problem with me ONLY lies with the President spending time thinking about it.

The only people he doesn't spend time going after are white supremacists and Vladimir Putin.

 

[easyt65]

I don't give a damn about Karpernick.

I have served 30 years in the military to protect everyone's right to free speech, no matter their message.

That being said, as for me personally, I am done with the NFL. They can all go the way of hockey, which has never been the same since their year-long bpycot destroyed them from what they once were.

If I wanted politics I would turn on a media channel, and if I wanted to see this country distespected by rich spoiled assholes I would turn on CSPAN to watch Congress.

The NFL's ratings have been going down over this shit, & it is more than the President who wanted them to knock it off. So, the players didn't just give a big ol' 'F* You' to Trump today - they gave it to every patriotic American or anyone who just didn't want politics forced on them when turning on the NFL.

 

[JimBowie1958]

No, that is only your opinion, but I understand you libs tend to confuse that with actual law, so it is understandable.

Are you saying Rex Tillerson was not the head of Exxon?

Are you saying Donald Trump was not a reality TV star?

Are you saying Mike Flynn did not lobby for Turkey?

You are so full of shit, I can't even begin to count how much.

I am saying that them serving in our government is not illegal.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I don't give a damn about Karpernick.

I have served 30 years in the military to protect everyone's right to free speech, no matter their message.

That being said, as for me personally, I am done with the NFL. They can all go the way of hockey, which has never been the same since their year-long bpycot destroyed them from what they once were.

If I wanted politics I would turn on a media channel, and if I wanted to see this country distespected by rich spoiled assholes I would turn on CSPAN to watch Congress.

The NFL's ratings have been going down over this shit, & it is more than the President who wanted them to knock it off. So, the players didn't just give a big ol' 'F* You' to Trump today - they gave it to every patriotic American or anyone who just didn't want politics forced on them when turning on the NFL.

When Nitwit Felons League players disrespect the people that the flag represents, they are spitting on their customers, the people who are paying their salaries.

Fuck the NFL.

 

[easyt65]

The difference is that Trump has made numerous tweets and speeches about Kaepernick.

Obama made none about Tebow.

The problem with me ONLY lies with the President spending time thinking about it.

The only people he doesn't spend time going after are white supremacists and Vladimir Putin.

And Obama only spied on and targeted only those who didn't support him and his agenda. At least Don hasn't violated the Constitution and broken laws like Barry did ...

I'll take an over-zealous patriot over a fascist dictator-wanna-be all day, every dad...

 

[JimBowie1958]

We the People that the US flag represents should respond by ending the corporate subsidies the NFL enjoys.

NFL gets billions in subsidies from U.S. taxpayers

End the N.F.L. Tax Breaks - NYTimes.com

 

[WEATHER53]

NFL in self destruct mode. Piss off Joe Average to appeal to some hippies
and let's watch the ratings

 

[Billo_Really]

I am saying that them serving in our government is not illegal.

I didn't say it was. I said nominating people who are completely unqualified to do the job they were given, is disrespecting our flag.

 

[Billo_Really]

And Obama only spied on and targeted only those who didn't support him and his agenda. At least Don hasn't violated the Constitution and broken laws like Barry did ...

I'll take an over-zealous patriot over a fascist dictator-wanna-be all day, every dad...

You can't kiss that much Russian ass and still call yourself a patriot.

 

[Rustic]

Nice to see you don't care about this country.

The federal government and the country are not one in the same. Dip shit

 

[LoneLaugher]

If Kaepernick and other pro athletes want to take a knee during the national anthem as a form of protest that is their right those who find this to be disrespectful act also have the right to criticize them. If they want to bring politics into the forefront of sports they better understand not everyone will agree with them and be ready for the blowback that will come from it.

The NFL owners...can order them to not do it......this is not a 1st Amendment issue since it is on the job. The NFL needs to learn a lesson, people need to completely tune out of the games until the NFL stops this insulting of their audience...

The owners can do that the NFL can put a rule in saying kneeling during the anthem is not allowed somehow I doubt they will the ones who can have the biggest impact are the fans if they stop watching and going to the games and people's bank accounts start taking a hit I suspect you would see a change in attitude pretty quick.

Periods and commas. Use them.

 

[Mac1958]

There's a difference between "standing and being counted" and actually doing what it takes to improve things. If that is actually your goal.

They are mutually exclusive.

Mutually exclusive? How? What about "standing and being counted" prohibits one from "actually doing what it takes to improve things," and vice versa?

I dare say nothing. One can quite effectively do both. It's a question of how far one is going to take it.

I'm in no place to say that "she" should "stand and be counted" but "he" should take it to the next level and "do what it takes" to implement. Both "he" and "she" can want to see change effected while still having differing levels of contribution to aid in achieving a given end. For example:

1. Be not a voice for change --> Oppose a given ballot measure.
2. Be an anonymous voice for change --> On a forum like this, post favorably for a given ballot measure.
3. Be a public voice for change --> Append one's name to one's expressed approbation of a given ballot measure. (This is "entry level" for being a patriot....This is kinda like "puttin' a ring on it.")
4. Be an agent of change --> "Stump," knock on doors, hand out flyers, lobby your friends, neighbors and family, etc. for a given ballot measure.
5. Lead agents of change --> Organize the people in #4 and be an "official" champion of a given ballot measure.

I watched the start of the Patriots-Houston game this afternoon just to see what the players would do in response to the President's pronouncements.
The players that weren't on a knee, including the coaches, stood in a line with locked arms, looking pretty serious about it. There were a lot of players on their knee. I only saw two individual players (both Patriots, I think), who were holding their hand over their heart. The owners did, too.
I believe that might be a backfire? I don't watch football, so I don't have anything to compare it to, but now NO ONE is saluting the flag. Just to flip off the President.

By the way, in answer to the OP's central question, CK doesn't have to be a patriot in order to express himself and I see nothing wrong with his doing that. It is a personal choice that our country allows us the freedom to make. I love my country and my flag and the Star Spangled Banner always gives me a little chill, but if CK wants to respectfully take a knee to highlight injustices to his people, I see no reason to chastise him for it.

CK doesn't have to be a patriot in order to express himself

True that. But it's hard to be a patriot and not stand up and be counted. Patriotism and silence don't really go well together. Quiescence doesn't make one be not a patriot, but it does mean nobody but oneself will know whether one is a patriot, and there's nothing wrong with that.

What makes one's expression patriotic is that one is using one's voice to advocate for improving something one sees as wrong with one's country, and one's advocating in a public way whereby one jeopardizes something of current or future value to oneself.

I think a patriot will stand up for at least one thing they see that needs "fixing" about their country, although they may not stand up for everything, or even most things, that strike them as needing attention. Openly risking, in the name of bettering one's country, something one holds dear.

Does that mean I'd have to call patriots some people whose views I vehemently oppose? Yes, it does, but not all of them. One's actions and aims have to also be at once noble and humble. Spewing hate and violence, regardless of whether I agree with the cause, in the name of one's country does not make one a patriot. Tim McVeigh was no patriot. Dylan Roof is no patriot. On the other hand, Phyllis Schlafly was a patriot, even though I didn't agree with much she wanted to see happen.

I'm at the borderline of my faith,
I'm at the hinterland of my devotion in the front line of this battle of mine
But I'm still alive...In the wild wild west,
Trying my hardest, Doing my best
To stay alive
-- Sade​

I watched the start of the Patriots-Houston game this afternoon just to see what the players would do in response to the President's pronouncements....now NO ONE is saluting the flag. Just to flip off the President.

That's really sad...Not that people are "flipping off" Trump, but that the "conversation" about this has become about Trump and not about the issue that CK is calling attention to. It's makes so angry that no matter what, Trump cannot let something other than himself be the focus. That man finds a way to make himself the center of attention for every conversation.

Mind, there's plenty that he is rightly the center of attention...he's the head of state, government. That said, this CK and NFL thing should not have a damn thing to do with him and the government. If he wants to share details of the WH football pool, or his fantasy football picks, etc., fine. I would welcome that. It'd be interesting and apropos.

The term "mutually exclusive" simply means two things are not the same, neither one needs the other.

However, they are not precluded from existing at the same time. Or they can exist individually.

So, "standing up and being counted" can result in something positive, or it can be nothing more than wasted, shallow emotion.
.

 

[usmbguest5318]

There's a difference between "standing and being counted" and actually doing what it takes to improve things. If that is actually your goal.

They are mutually exclusive.

Mutually exclusive? How? What about "standing and being counted" prohibits one from "actually doing what it takes to improve things," and vice versa?

I dare say nothing. One can quite effectively do both. It's a question of how far one is going to take it.

I'm in no place to say that "she" should "stand and be counted" but "he" should take it to the next level and "do what it takes" to implement. Both "he" and "she" can want to see change effected while still having differing levels of contribution to aid in achieving a given end. For example:

1. Be not a voice for change --> Oppose a given ballot measure.
2. Be an anonymous voice for change --> On a forum like this, post favorably for a given ballot measure.
3. Be a public voice for change --> Append one's name to one's expressed approbation of a given ballot measure. (This is "entry level" for being a patriot....This is kinda like "puttin' a ring on it.")
4. Be an agent of change --> "Stump," knock on doors, hand out flyers, lobby your friends, neighbors and family, etc. for a given ballot measure.
5. Lead agents of change --> Organize the people in #4 and be an "official" champion of a given ballot measure.

I watched the start of the Patriots-Houston game this afternoon just to see what the players would do in response to the President's pronouncements.
The players that weren't on a knee, including the coaches, stood in a line with locked arms, looking pretty serious about it. There were a lot of players on their knee. I only saw two individual players (both Patriots, I think), who were holding their hand over their heart. The owners did, too.
I believe that might be a backfire? I don't watch football, so I don't have anything to compare it to, but now NO ONE is saluting the flag. Just to flip off the President.

By the way, in answer to the OP's central question, CK doesn't have to be a patriot in order to express himself and I see nothing wrong with his doing that. It is a personal choice that our country allows us the freedom to make. I love my country and my flag and the Star Spangled Banner always gives me a little chill, but if CK wants to respectfully take a knee to highlight injustices to his people, I see no reason to chastise him for it.

CK doesn't have to be a patriot in order to express himself

True that. But it's hard to be a patriot and not stand up and be counted. Patriotism and silence don't really go well together. Quiescence doesn't make one be not a patriot, but it does mean nobody but oneself will know whether one is a patriot, and there's nothing wrong with that.

What makes one's expression patriotic is that one is using one's voice to advocate for improving something one sees as wrong with one's country, and one's advocating in a public way whereby one jeopardizes something of current or future value to oneself.

I think a patriot will stand up for at least one thing they see that needs "fixing" about their country, although they may not stand up for everything, or even most things, that strike them as needing attention. Openly risking, in the name of bettering one's country, something one holds dear.

Does that mean I'd have to call patriots some people whose views I vehemently oppose? Yes, it does, but not all of them. One's actions and aims have to also be at once noble and humble. Spewing hate and violence, regardless of whether I agree with the cause, in the name of one's country does not make one a patriot. Tim McVeigh was no patriot. Dylan Roof is no patriot. On the other hand, Phyllis Schlafly was a patriot, even though I didn't agree with much she wanted to see happen.

I'm at the borderline of my faith,
I'm at the hinterland of my devotion in the front line of this battle of mine
But I'm still alive...In the wild wild west,
Trying my hardest, Doing my best
To stay alive
-- Sade​

I watched the start of the Patriots-Houston game this afternoon just to see what the players would do in response to the President's pronouncements....now NO ONE is saluting the flag. Just to flip off the President.

That's really sad...Not that people are "flipping off" Trump, but that the "conversation" about this has become about Trump and not about the issue that CK is calling attention to. It's makes so angry that no matter what, Trump cannot let something other than himself be the focus. That man finds a way to make himself the center of attention for every conversation.

Mind, there's plenty that he is rightly the center of attention...he's the head of state, government. That said, this CK and NFL thing should not have a damn thing to do with him and the government. If he wants to share details of the WH football pool, or his fantasy football picks, etc., fine. I would welcome that. It'd be interesting and apropos.

The term "mutually exclusive" simply means two things are not the same, neither one needs the other.

However, they are not precluded from existing at the same time. Or they can exist individually.
.

Nope. How long have you been operating under that misunderstanding?

• Definition of MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
  • being related such that each excludes or precludes the other
• Mutual exclusivity - Wikipedia

The state of being not the same as something/someone else is called "different." "Mutually exclusive" is neither synonymous with nor nearly synonymous with "different" or terms like it such as "dissimilar," "incongruous" and so on.

You will recall you statement:

There's a difference between "standing and being counted" and actually doing what it takes to improve things. If that is actually your goal

They are mutually exclusive..

Quite simply, "standing and being counted" and "doing what it takes to improve things can happen at the same time, by the same person acting in one place. The two are not mutually exclusive. Period.