Something that I think deserves it's own thread.

[The Duke]

You've been brainwashed by propaganda, to believe that....

U.S. President George H. W. Bush approved the initial 14 miles of fencing along the San Diego–Tijuana border.[27] In 1993, President Bill Clinton oversaw initial border fence construction which was completed by the end of the year. Starting in 1994, further barriers were built under Clinton's presidency as part of three larger operations to taper transportation of illegal drugs manufactured in Latin America and immigration: Operation Gatekeeper in California, Operation Hold-the-Line[28] in Texas, and Operation Safeguard[29] in Arizona. Clinton signed the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, which authorized further barriers and the reinforcement of the initial border fence. The majority of the border barriers built in the 1990s were made out of leftover helicopter landing mats from the Vietnam War.[27]

The border should have been secured before H.W. Bush's term was over, but it wasn't. Clinton did more than him.

The current potato-in-chief has fought against securing the border since 1989.

Funds for securing the border have been allocated and raided by Congress 3x already.

 

[rampart]

You make a few errors in your premise.

The people in the Democratic party who were "border hawks" in 1966 are now Republicans. Thus the GOP moves further right on the issue while the DEMS move closer to the middle.
This holds true of the anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-immigrant, and other people holding extreme views on a number of subjects. They joined the GOP because, in their minds, the GOP listened to their concerns. They all joined the GOP driving the GOP further and further toward the Reactionary end of the scale until the GOP of 1966 would not recognize the GOP of 2023.

The same is true to some extent for the Democratic party. In 1966 the Democratic party was split along race issue which incorporates, to some extent the border issue, lines. Southern Democrats opposed any movement away from integration while Northern Democrats opposed segregation. What held them together was what holds DEMS together today. Economic issues. Yes dems are left on social issues buy social issues are economic issues. Equal housing, equal pay, equal protection under the law. When DEMS with some GOP support started passing civil rights legislation the southern DEMS in 68 revolted and Wallace handed Nixon the presidency. As the segregationist DEMS left the party the political center of the country shifted right.

If you look at DEMS positions on social change today they are really no different than 1966.

To respond to your question:
The Democratic party philosophically is nearly exactly where it was in 1966. It's core concern is economic well being of everyone and, as when the CRA and VRA passed, social issues are economic issues.
The Republicans, on the other hand have no core philosophy anymore. In 66 the GOP could be summed up by the 50's quote "what's good for GM is good for America." Fiscal responsibility, NOT conservatism, RESPONSIBILITY was a central theme and those deficits were actually offensive (that's me in 76). Then along came Reagan and the GOP has never seen a deficit it didn't love ever since. Think about it, is it
Fiscal Responsibility
Military might
Law and order
Naaah, the speak about those things but when you look at the record other than spend hundreds of billions on weapons systems no one will ever see work, not so much.
But there are issues that will, MUST, draw support from every elected Republican, OR ELSE...the dreaded primary. those issues you ask?
Zero tolerance abortion from the moment of conception
Eliminate all gun control laws
Outlaw all Queer actions, activities, public appearances, job protections, media appearances, under penalty of death
Outlaw pot

Of course the problem for the GOP is that these issues don't draw people together, they drive them apart. To solve this conundrum?
The GOP daily flow of faux outrage. You see it here every day.
"OMG Joe Biden went to the beach and relaxed while surrounded by 2 dozen armed agents and NOBODY held a rally"
"OMG did you know the VP is Black...AND A WOMAN??????"
"OMG did you hear they had a drag show and the one miming Cher made a pelvic thrust...AND THERE'S A SCHOOL less than a mile away!!!!"
This "anger mongering" is the only method the GOP has now to gain support. They can't legitimately discuss the economy, jobs, national security without getting raised eyebrows and barely hidden sniggers.

Your premise attempts to equivocate the DEM and GOP positions and that those positions have changed. I do reject the premise. Philosophically the DEMS are exactly where they were 60 years ago but the GOP has move so far to the right that the scale itself has shifted right.

What that means is that ideolically we, as a people, have no center anymore. Those that were in the center are now on the left and as more and more conservatives drive the GOP further and further right the empty center grows.

Surely we can understand the implications of an ideologically vacant center?
Eventually what we call the 'left' will win. Sorry conservatives, it is the way of things. You hold on to what was and what is will overwhelm you. When it does, there will be no ideological right to oppose it and the left's word will become law.

THAT my friends is when this nation will end. Our system is set up to SLOOOOOOOWWWW things down. Force us to take tiny baby steps. Those baby steps allow us to correct course before we do too much damage. But the system only works when everyone involved wants to govern. When one side or the other fails to govern the system balance fails and we stumble headfirst into the outhouse hole. Look to Florida and California for examples.

Thanks for the thread.

the social issues can only be solved if at all, through economics. only 1 party seems to agree with me that the economy exists to help people. not the other way around.

 

[Oddball]

There's no swaying anyone now a days, because no on either side listens.
Try to educate democrats on how illegals are reducing the value of labor for every industry and trade they invade, making it harder for Americans to get jobs in those fields, and you're deemed a racist. Or some other retarded word.
The die hard Republicans do the same thing.

Millions who wouldn't have voted at all went with Trump....There's a big pool of people to be swayed there, if you can open your mind up long enough to quit treating them like dirt.

 

[BluesLegend]

So you're just going to dodge my questions and go straight into something be both get. Democrats are bad. Duh!! I get it. I got it decades ago. You're preaching to the choir on that subject.
Now, do you care to address my questions? Or do you just wanna keep ignoring the "democrat-like" things that Trump shoved in our faces?

I'm on record ripping the RINO's and dumb ass Republicans spend-o-holic BS also. We fiscal/constitutional law abiding conservatives are the only faction the country can truly count on.

 

[YoursTruly]

I'm on record ripping the RINO's and dumb ass Republicans spend-o-holic BS also. We fiscal/constitutional law abiding conservatives are the only faction the country can truly count on.

You think a RINO is someone that doesn't like Trump. It's nothing more than a name calling word now.
The correct acronym is "CINO." When they started using RINO, it was back when Republicans were actual Conservatives. People who kept the debt within reach of being paid off. Which kept the value of the USD high. A few started breaking away from things that They used RINO on people like Reagan who only claimed to be conservative, but who's actions were not.
This is exactly what Trump is, what you call a RINO. And so is 90% of the other Republicans. McCarthy, McConnell, Gaetz, Cruz etc etc etc

 

[BluesLegend]

You think a RINO is someone that doesn't like Trump.

Pathetic. We realize your desperate need to lecture others, likely rooted in a severe inferiority complex, get help.

 

[YoursTruly]

Millions who wouldn't have voted at all went with Trump....There's a big pool of people to be swayed there, if you can open your mind up long enough to quit treating them like dirt.

Swayed by a smooth talking politician like Trump, I can see it. Making up big lies that no one has ever thought of before. Like making Mexico pay for a wall. Zero out the debt in 8 years. Locking Hillary up. Ending the wars and bringing our soldiers home. Getting the "greatest medical miracle of all times" (covid shot) to all Americans.

Blah blah blah blah blah. That's all it was. Just grand lies to win support, from people who are desperately looking for a hero. The guy (Trump) had a team of people who went through social media & political forums like this to see what Republicans were talking about, and then incorporated the popular lines into his speeches.

I'm not treating anyone like dirt. Just exposing what's wrong with the GOP and their voters. Sometimes the truth hurts. It's not like I'm making up lies about Trump, as the democrats did. The bump stock ban, the platinum plan & all the actual lies he told are things that republican voters should highly object to. But because it's Trump doing it, they just ignore it because he's better than Biden.

 

[YoursTruly]

Pathetic. We realize your desperate need to lecture others, likely rooted in a severe inferiority complex, get help.

See, now you're getting personal. Completely overlooking anything factual I posted. And going straight into the mud slinging pit.
You know damn well that if Biden or Obama had banned bump stocks, gave $500 Billion to black communities or funded gender studies, you'd all be screaming your heads off.
So what keeps you from screaming your heads off about Trump?

Is it that your not allowed to? Is it because you've got so much loyalty for the lying north eastern liberal, that your pride won't go down?
It's OK to admit you were duped. I've been duped before. Reagan had me convince, as Trump has you, that he was the great conservative. As soon as his record became available online, I swallowed that pride and never looked back.

 

[BluesLegend]

See, now you're getting personal.

Then stop making stupid statements, you don't know me. Stop lecturing it's starting to bore the hell out of us.

 

[martybegan]

This OP is designed solely to divide Republicans.

The Obvious Concern Troll OP is Obviously concerned.

 

[YoursTruly]

You are viewing the world from blue tinted glasses and misrepresenting facts to your advantage.

There's nothing "blue" about my statements or political beliefs. I fully support fiscal conservatism. A balanced budget every year. Using the Federal Reserve ONLY in cases of emergencies. And a strict adherence of the US Constitution, as written.
The GOP has strayed from doing that. (as well as the left).
I'm against the unconstitutional aspects of FISA 702, the patriot act and the NDAA. I'm against every dime spent that's not necessary to maintain the country. Gender studies in Pakistan is not necessary for this country.
It, and 1000 other things like it, were funded during Trumps presidency.
So why TF wouldn't I object to Trump?
How in gods name does Trump actual record not make him a liberal. And why TF does his supporters not understand that simple fact?
Because he doesn't have a democrat badge? His record labels him. Not his party affiliation.

 

[dblack]

For most of these drones, team-sports, partisan poo flinging is all they know. They're scared, they're angry and they're dumb. Not much good will come out of that.

 

[Oddball]

Swayed by a smooth talking politician like Trump, I can see it. Making up big lies that no one has ever thought of before. Like making Mexico pay for a wall. Zero out the debt in 8 years. Locking Hillary up. Ending the wars and bringing our soldiers home. Getting the "greatest medical miracle of all times" (covid shot) to all Americans.

Blah blah blah blah blah. That's all it was. Just grand lies to win support, from people who are desperately looking for a hero. The guy (Trump) had a team of people who went through social media & political forums like this to see what Republicans were talking about, and then incorporated the popular lines into his speeches.

I'm not treating anyone like dirt. Just exposing what's wrong with the GOP and their voters. Sometimes the truth hurts. It's not like I'm making up lies about Trump, as the democrats did. The bump stock ban, the platinum plan & all the actual lies he told are things that republican voters should highly object to. But because it's Trump doing it, they just ignore it because he's better than Biden.

Swayed is swayed....You can't read minds or project anything upon people you don't know.

This is exactly the kind of intellectual snobbery that was on the list of causes for me to leave the LP.

 

[Godboy]

This was posted on another thread. But it's so deep, and spot on, I think it would be worth wild to discuss this topic on it's own (since it wasn't really on topic of the OP in the other thread)

The political divide in this country, especially on forums like this stems from a lot of issues. Some are legit disagreements. And some are merely political loyalty. "Sticking it to the other side" seems to be the going thing. Revenge politics, as they say. But on a social level.



The proof in this statement can be seen in the many MANY flip flops the party's have taken in the last several decades. Used to be, the GOP was the party of fiscal conservatism. They still campaign on being fiscal conservatives. But the fact is, the right has spent more money and increased the debt ceiling more times since at least 1980, than the democrats have.
And as far as the democrats go, they used to be the party of border security. They're the ones who come up with the idea of fencing off the border and putting large amounts of border patrols on it. This was back when they seem to care about the working class Americans and wanted to protect their jobs.

Those are just two examples. But FA_Q2 nailed in his statement.

What republican is going to stand up against Trumps spending problem, in favor of keeping our economy from collapsing from inflation created by all the money he's going to borrow when he's re elected? What democrat is going to stand up against Biden's lax border problem, in favor of the American working man? Are these issue important enough for anyone to strongly oppose their party and it's leaders and decide for yourself, instead of being told what and who to support?

You will see immediate pushback from conservatives if Trump or anyone else goes on a spending spree.

 

[Oddball]

For most of these drones, team-sports, partisan poo flinging is all they know. They're scared, they're angry and they're dumb. Not much good will come out of that.

More boilerplate sour grapes projection, that has zero to do with actual human nature..

People more strongly go after things they want, by no less than 3X, rather than have their lives led by what they seek to avoid.

There are reasons that 12 million (that we're being told of) more people voted Trump in '20 than '16....Not to mention the already overwhelming populist base that has apparently take over the GOP.

When are you going to quit sniveling and start persuading?

 

[Oddball]

You will see immediate pushback from conservatives if Trump or anyone else goes on a spending spree.

Didn't happen with Chimpy Bush or Trump.....The latter was the worst of the two, after he promised to never ever sign a budget as preposterous as the first one, before signing three more of them.

 

[Godboy]

Didn't happen with Chimpy Bush or Trump.....The latter was the worst of the two, after he promised to never ever sign a budget as preposterous as the first one, before signing three more of them.

What did they spend money on? Was it for war and COVID, or was it for useless green projects and Pakistani transgender studies?

People will accept overspending during emergencies, but Democrats blow money on frivilous shit. They blow TRILLIONS on it.

 

[OldFlame]

Swayed? Dems do nothing but LIE through their teeth. Weaponize government to fabricate shit on their opponents. Their polices suck ass, hurt the poor and middle class. The corrupt bunch of rat bastards spend most of their time scheming how to get rich, sell out vs representing the people. There's no middle ground there.

This is the problem though, you describe the dems to a 'T', but the R's are no better, they sit quietly or hold 'hearings' that never result in any solution or anyone being held accountable. They are just the good cop to you in the good cop/bad cop scenario, but both cops want the same outcome. Until they do anything to hold the people in government accountable, they are no better. I don't feel like I have a party or any representation at all, it's all a smoke screen.

 

[YoursTruly]

You make a few errors in your premise.

The people in the Democratic party who were "border hawks" in 1966 are now Republicans. Thus the GOP moves further right on the issue while the DEMS move closer to the middle.
This holds true of the anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-immigrant, and other people holding extreme views on a number of subjects. They joined the GOP because, in their minds, the GOP listened to their concerns. They all joined the GOP driving the GOP further and further toward the Reactionary end of the scale until the GOP of 1966 would not recognize the GOP of 2023.

The same is true to some extent for the Democratic party. In 1966 the Democratic party was split along race issue which incorporates, to some extent the border issue, lines. Southern Democrats opposed any movement away from integration while Northern Democrats opposed segregation. What held them together was what holds DEMS together today. Economic issues. Yes dems are left on social issues buy social issues are economic issues. Equal housing, equal pay, equal protection under the law. When DEMS with some GOP support started passing civil rights legislation the southern DEMS in 68 revolted and Wallace handed Nixon the presidency. As the segregationist DEMS left the party the political center of the country shifted right.

If you look at DEMS positions on social change today they are really no different than 1966.

To respond to your question:
The Democratic party philosophically is nearly exactly where it was in 1966. It's core concern is economic well being of everyone and, as when the CRA and VRA passed, social issues are economic issues.
The Republicans, on the other hand have no core philosophy anymore. In 66 the GOP could be summed up by the 50's quote "what's good for GM is good for America." Fiscal responsibility, NOT conservatism, RESPONSIBILITY was a central theme and those deficits were actually offensive (that's me in 76). Then along came Reagan and the GOP has never seen a deficit it didn't love ever since. Think about it, is it
Fiscal Responsibility
Military might
Law and order
Naaah, the speak about those things but when you look at the record other than spend hundreds of billions on weapons systems no one will ever see work, not so much.
But there are issues that will, MUST, draw support from every elected Republican, OR ELSE...the dreaded primary. those issues you ask?
Zero tolerance abortion from the moment of conception
Eliminate all gun control laws
Outlaw all Queer actions, activities, public appearances, job protections, media appearances, under penalty of death
Outlaw pot

Of course the problem for the GOP is that these issues don't draw people together, they drive them apart. To solve this conundrum?
The GOP daily flow of faux outrage. You see it here every day.
"OMG Joe Biden went to the beach and relaxed while surrounded by 2 dozen armed agents and NOBODY held a rally"
"OMG did you know the VP is Black...AND A WOMAN??????"
"OMG did you hear they had a drag show and the one miming Cher made a pelvic thrust...AND THERE'S A SCHOOL less than a mile away!!!!"
This "anger mongering" is the only method the GOP has now to gain support. They can't legitimately discuss the economy, jobs, national security without getting raised eyebrows and barely hidden sniggers.

Your premise attempts to equivocate the DEM and GOP positions and that those positions have changed. I do reject the premise. Philosophically the DEMS are exactly where they were 60 years ago but the GOP has move so far to the right that the scale itself has shifted right.

What that means is that ideolically we, as a people, have no center anymore. Those that were in the center are now on the left and as more and more conservatives drive the GOP further and further right the empty center grows.

Surely we can understand the implications of an ideologically vacant center?
Eventually what we call the 'left' will win. Sorry conservatives, it is the way of things. You hold on to what was and what is will overwhelm you. When it does, there will be no ideological right to oppose it and the left's word will become law.

THAT my friends is when this nation will end. Our system is set up to SLOOOOOOOWWWW things down. Force us to take tiny baby steps. Those baby steps allow us to correct course before we do too much damage. But the system only works when everyone involved wants to govern. When one side or the other fails to govern the system balance fails and we stumble headfirst into the outhouse hole. Look to Florida and California for examples.

Thanks for the thread.

I can agree with most of that.
I just wished the right would actually make good on their campaign promised to stop the excessive spending, balance the budget and leave the Fed money alone. And stop using it like an unlimited credit card.
People legitimately complain about the trade deficit with China, without realizing why they can manufacture so much cheaper than the US. It's simply because a middle class wage over there is like $20,000(USD) per year. Here, it's a poverty wage. If our middle class wage was still $20,000, we wouldn't have a trade deficit.
If our middle class wage was still that, we wouldn't much of an immigration problem. The cartels wouldn't be so dominant in our drug problem. Fentanyl is made is China, sent to MX to me made into meth and other drugs, both at much lower wages. And sold on the US market at a HUGE profit. If our USD was still that of 1970, the profit margin of fentanyl wouldn't be near what it is today.
That's just a couple of examples of what our overly inflated USD has done to this country, by our own government.
They (the Gov) has done more to push jobs out of this country, bring illegals and drugs in and hurt the middle class more than any other issue. And the GOP, the left, Trump and 90% of the rest of them, just ignore that.
Maybe it's because they don't know how to reverse this. Maybe there is no way to reverse it. But they could start by leaving the Federal Reserve alone. Stopping the money printing machines would stop inflation in it's tracks.

When inflation strikes, it causes 80% of the country at least some level of hardship. Buying goes down, crime goes up, jails & prisons get fuller, businesses suffer and it spreads across the country faster than covid. There's almost no aspect of our lives that inflation doesn't touch. Inflation is nothing more than too much money in the economy. And like you said, when Reagan came into office, it started a trend that hasn't stopped yet.

 

[Oddball]

What did they spend money on? Was it war and COVID, or was it for useless green projects and Pakistani transgender studies?

People will accept overspending during emergencies, but Democrats blow money on frivilous shit. They blow TRILLIONS on it.

What the loot was spent on is irrelevant...The budgets were bloated and wasteful beyond comprehension.

Bush's smallest budget was bigger than the "liberal" Clinton's biggest....His first response to 9/11™ was to grow The State.

Trump was a total pussy asshole for not vetoing the last three budget that hit his desk.

The GOP has absolutely no moral high ground to stake out when it comes to spending and debt.