Socialized medicine does not work...

[Rustic]

Idiocy.
I havent had cancer yet. If I do in the future then the NHS is there for me.

No one should be forced to pay for what "might" happen... that is no way to live.

The rest of us should not be forced to pay for it when it does happen because you were to irresponsible to plan for it. Don't conservatives constantly bleat about personal responsibility? Do you wait until you have an auto accident to gat auto insurance?

There's a difference between "You should do this" and "We're going to force you to". And since when have conservatives EVER suggested that other people should pick up the tab for someone else's bad choices?

It has nothing to do with what conservatives may or may not have said. It has to do with reality. Know what that is.? Not -alt reality. REALITY . When people don't have insurance, they don't get preventive care. They get sicker than they would have been, go to the ER-where care is very expensive-and get charity care . They go on disability. They stop paying taxes. They are no longer productive. Who the hell do you thing pays for all of that?

Dear TheProgressivePatriot
Instead of arguing in circles about who ends up paying for what
(not just with health insurance, but what about the costs of crime that taxpayers foot the bill for. What about consequences of smoking pot and who is going to pay for that when we can't even agree what consequences are provable or not!)
Why not set up "separate tracks" so people CAN track the costs of their own policies, ie
A. A separate track for REGISTERED DEMOCRATS, PROCHOICE and/or PROLEGALIZATION advocates to live under and pay their taxes to VOLUNTARILY by ORGANIZING exchanges and coops based on party principles and paid membership on terms and conditions that the actual GROUP members vote on democratically
and accept FULL FINANCIAL AND LEGAL RESPONSIBLITIES for.
B. A separate track for REGISTERED REPUBLICANS and PROLIFE and Anti-Drugs advocates to pay taxes to support.

So instead of arguing back and forth, the group members ACCEPT responsibility REGARDLESS of the cost, and quit imposing on others. If any such policy is unsustainable, the group that advocated that policy has agreed to pay the costs, so it's in that groups "best interest" to pick the most cost-effective consistent policies to pay for.

...and health insurance is NOT health care...

 

[Rustic]

You are a raving FOOL! I must say you are one of the most persistent idiots I have ever had the displeasure to meet. First of all, I don't believe you ever went to Cuba in 1997 or an other year. Your credibility tanked a long time ago but it sank deeper than whale shit when you tried to shake me down over the Commonwealth Surveys (which included references to the WHO data) and then turned right around and made a counter argument based on a link that used surveys.

The dust hasn't cleared from THAT imbroglio and here you are again, braying incessantly against a reputable world renown entity such as the WHO. You ought to know that you have been written off as a clown!

Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

You are a left wing liar hack, reality and data nean nothing to you as evidenced by this thread. I just gave you the rankings of the best hospitals in the world, no cubans. They have a 'global medical mission' but cant crack the top 30 hospitals list. Many cuban people themselves have risked their lives for decades to escape your socialist paradise hellhole for the usa, that speaks louder than any of your lies. 2 million cubans live in florida, out of a population of 11 million in cuba that is staggering.

Cuba is ranked below the USA on the healthcare systems list. Yet, you want to make Cuba the poster child of socialized medicine to use as a comparison. I'm not going there. I'm focusing on those countries ranked above the USA. But I will say this:

Having the best equipped hospitals doesn't necessarily mean you have the best healthcare system. Primary care usually doesn't even involve hospitals at all. Can someone out there give me an AMEN?

And while Cubans might not enjoy the highest living standards in the world on average, the USA has a sizable population of poor people too...about 43 million of them.. That is about 4 times the population of Cuba (citing you).

But before the ACA, America's poor had limited access to primary care and so did middle classed Americans who couldn't get insured because of pre existing conditions. And those fortunate enough to have insurance faced rising premiums every year. Cuban nationals,OTOH had better access to prime healthcare despite their income levels. Cuba has done a marvelous job considering what they have had to work with.

But I ask you again...why pick on Cuba? Pick one of the countries that have healthcare systems ranking higher than that of the USA. I predict if you do that, the real differences you dread will be highlighted in MY favor!

First off, Cuba *IS* the poster child for socialized medicine. Their health care system reflects perfectly the values of socialism.... 'fairness and equality'.

But that isn't the reasons we are pointing it out and mocking you.

YOU... brought up the 2000 WHO health care ranking system.

The fact Cuba is EVEN ON THE LIST.... discredits the list.

How can you even attempt to compare a system where people don't have access to medications, all the way down to the super advanced space age technology of "Aspirin", to the US where you can buy 100 pills for $4, at a quick mart?

How can you even try and compare a system where people bring food to doctors to bribe them into treating you, to our system I can see a specialist the same week I ask for an appointment?

That's our point. You cited the WHO report which even had Cuba on the list. Cuba's health care is absolutely horrific. HORRIFIC.

View attachment 114847

This is not a botched surgery in Cuba. This is normal.



Video from inside Cuban hospital.

Now you tell me in what way you can logically say a comparison between this, and the US, makes sense? You tell me by what measure of quality of care, that the WHO placed Cuba at 39th, compared to the US 37th?

Yep, the only good about cuba are the people trying to escape the socialist government/socialized medicine that is killing them. These fuckers hear that keep on saying there something good about Cuban medicine government or whatever should go over there and live there hopefully the ******* socialist government beats the ******* shit out of them before they kill them…

 

[NCC1701]

Medicare was labelled socialized medicine. It is a national treasure.

Obamacare has been labeled socialized medicine. Not only has it saved lives, even Trump voters are worried he'll take away their insurance that they got thanks to the ACA.

Also, I'd rather my tax dollars go to healthcare than corporate welfare.

When medicare was launched in 1965 or somewhere near that, they laid out what the future costs would be. By 1990 it cost 2.5 times what liberals said it would.

Obamacare has already not only broken promises but costs more than promised.

How come you dont care about that?

Obamacare is the scapegoat for premium increases. Insurance companies are the culprit.

You have it reversed, you are blaming insurance companies for a scheme that obama set up, not them. Funny how no matter what you refuse to blame govt for anything. How come brilliant obama and the libs could not see that coming?

What about the fiscal failure of medicare, i am sure you have a scapegoat for that too. So why did liberals lie in the 60s about the cost of medicare?

The mistake is we haven't phased out insurance companies completely in favor of a national healthcare system.

If politicians touch Medicare, there will be an uprising in this country in which we will see more protests and activism.

So you admit obamacare is a mistake, i agree.

You keep avoiding the question, why is medicare a national treasure when liberals first lied about the cost,and future projections show crippling cost ahead. How come cost does not matter?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Idiocy.
I havent had cancer yet. If I do in the future then the NHS is there for me.

No one should be forced to pay for what "might" happen... that is no way to live.

The rest of us should not be forced to pay for it when it does happen because you were to irresponsible to plan for it. Don't conservatives constantly bleat about personal responsibility? Do you wait until you have an auto accident to gat auto insurance?

There's a difference between "You should do this" and "We're going to force you to". And since when have conservatives EVER suggested that other people should pick up the tab for someone else's bad choices?

It has nothing to do with what conservatives may or may not have said. It has to do with reality. Know what that is.? Not -alt reality. REALITY . When people don't have insurance, they don't get preventive care. They get sicker than they would have been, go to the ER-where care is very expensive-and get charity care . They go on disability. They stop paying taxes. They are no longer productive. Who the hell do you thing pays for all of that?

Dear TheProgressivePatriot
Instead of arguing in circles about who ends up paying for what
(not just with health insurance, but what about the costs of crime that taxpayers foot the bill for. What about consequences of smoking pot and who is going to pay for that when we can't even agree what consequences are provable or not!)
Why not set up "separate tracks" so people CAN track the costs of their own policies, ie
A. A separate track for REGISTERED DEMOCRATS, PROCHOICE and/or PROLEGALIZATION advocates to live under and pay their taxes to VOLUNTARILY by ORGANIZING exchanges and coops based on party principles and paid membership on terms and conditions that the actual GROUP members vote on democratically
and accept FULL FINANCIAL AND LEGAL RESPONSIBLITIES for.
B. A separate track for REGISTERED REPUBLICANS and PROLIFE and Anti-Drugs advocates to pay taxes to support.

So instead of arguing back and forth, the group members ACCEPT responsibility REGARDLESS of the cost, and quit imposing on others. If any such policy is unsustainable, the group that advocated that policy has agreed to pay the costs, so it's in that groups "best interest" to pick the most cost-effective consistent policies to pay for.

Why not dissolve the union into separate federations of red and blue states roughly along the Mason-Dixon line and have entirely separate political, and economic systems ?

 

[JQPublic1]

First off, Cuba *IS* the poster child for socialized medicine. Their health care system reflects perfectly the values of socialism.... 'fairness and equality'.

But that isn't the reasons we are pointing it out and mocking you.

YOU... brought up the 2000 WHO health care ranking system.

The fact Cuba is EVEN ON THE LIST.... discredits the list.

You've found an author who paints a portrait of the Cuban healthcare system as one that was spiraling into decline between 1997 and 2006. Lucia Newman left Cuba in 2006 but the report you use as your ammunition was published in 2012, 6 years later. The WHO report was published in 2000.


. But is there really a disparity between what Newman says about Cuba's healthcare system during her tenure there and the position of Cuba on WHO's list? Although you are determined to make it an issue, there may be none at all. Thankfully, Newman report was more objective than your excerpts would indicate. for instance, Newman also wrote:


"The Cuban system works - or is supposed to work - by emphasising primary and preventative healthcare.

For any country, but particularly for a poor nation such as Cuba, it is much easier and less expensive to prevent than to cure.

Every square block is assigned a family doctor, or general practitioner, who lives in a small, two-storey house in the neighbourhood. The bottom floor is used to receive patients and the top floor becomes the doctor's living quarters.

He or she ensures that every child receives the proper vaccinations and that every pregnant woman has a monthly check-up, blood tests, and so on.

The doctor can prescribe medicine which, in theory, can be purchased for practically nothing at state-owned pharmacies - the only pharmacies that exist. And if a patient needs more complex care, he or she is referred to a specialist at a public hospital or clinic.

During the period when the Cuban government received generous subsidies from the former Soviet Union, the system more or less worked well. Hospitals were clean and, although they did not have state-of-the-art equipment, people could rely on them. "



You have either quoted or paraphrased every negative point penned by Lucia Newman who moved with her family to Havana in 1997 as a CNN news correspondent. But you excised any positive points she made in the same report.
The red highlighted paragraph above shows a direct cause of what she perceived as a decline in Cuban healthcare
and it isn't tied to socialism. The decline ,in her eyes , was attributed to the loss of subsidies when the former Soviet Union collapsed. But obviously, the decline was/is gradual. The years or year the Cuban healthcare system was assessed by WHO must have been prior to Newman's arrival in Cuba although the report was published in 2000!

How can you even attempt to compare a system where people don't have access to medications, all the way down to the super advanced space age technology of "Aspirin", to the US where you can buy 100 pills for $4, at a quick mart?

Your dishonesty reeks! Newman provided the answer but you didn't want us to know. I found it anyway:

"
"By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash"

How can you even try and compare a system where people bring food to doctors to bribe them into treating you, to our system I can see a specialist the same week I ask for an appointment?

That's our point. You cited the WHO report which even had Cuba on the list. Cuba's health care is absolutely horrific. HORRIFIC.

Again, you add your own spin to Newman's essay. Food and money are brought by patients who want to jump ahead of the line. Her is what Newman actually wrote:

"Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long."

Video from inside Cuban hospital.

Now you tell me in what way you can logically say a comparison between this, and the US, makes sense? You tell me by what measure of quality of care, that the WHO placed Cuba at 39th, compared to the US 37th?

You can post negative pictures taken from anywhere and declare them to be related typically to the decline of Cuba's health care. Unless I took the pictures myself I would opt to put more credence in an interview with an American student who graduated from the Cuban international Medical school:
Rich Warner writes:

"Pundits have been discussing the merits (or not) of Fidel Castro’s legacy as his body lies in state. The Cuban healthcare system is often stated as one of El Commandante’s greatest achievements. But how great is the system really? As someone who trained as a doctor in Cuba, I’d like to give you an insider’s view.

The Cuban healthcare system, borne out of its revolutionary socialist ideology, regards accessibility to healthcare as a fundamental right of its citizens. It focuses heavily on a preventative approach to medicine and offering the simplest check-up to the most complex surgery, free of charge. Dental care, medicines and even home visits from doctors are all covered by the system.

The island has the health statistics to support this seemingly impeccable system. An infant mortality rate of 4.2 per thousand births (compared with a rate of 3.5 per thousand births in the UK in 2015), life expectancy of 77 years for men and 81 years for women (on par with the UK’s life expectancy of 79 years for men and 83 years for women), and a doctor to patient ratio of one per 150, which surpasses many developed nations (UK ratio from the latest World Bank data is 2.8 doctors per 1,000 patients). It is no surprise therefore, that the secretary general of the United Nations, Ban Ki-moon, during a visit to Cuba hailed its healthcare service as, “a model for many countries”."

This article was published in November 2016. To me Warner's narrative suggests the healthcare decline seen by Neman is in remission. Many of the bad press and images you have been throwing at us may be reflections of the past if this article is any indication. Newman, in the link you provided substantiated that trend back in 2012 in the cited report:

"
"In all fairness, in the past five years, the government has made great efforts to improve hospitals and health centres, but again, lack of resources is making the process painfully slow."

"
"From my experience, there are specialties in which Cuba excels, such as the rehabilitation of patients who have had strokes or are suffering from neurological disorders, such as Parkinson's disease. Patients who go to CIREN (the Centre for Neurological Regeneration) receive personalised care from well-trained therapists"

"
"And as with so many things in Cuba, the state health service offers some amazing paradoxes: you may have problems obtaining medicine, but getting a bust lift, or even a sex change, is no problem, and moreover, it is free of charge."


The data you are presenting here is outdated. Cuba has been changing for the better. But the nexus between the WHO ranking of 2000 and Newman's 2012 report does not necessarily show a conflict. Both merely indicate observances taken at two different periods. Warner's report, the latest assessment available thus far, indicates neither the WHO report or Newman's report are relevant today. Cuba might have a higher ranking now than it did in the 2000 Who report. The USA might be higher on the list too, thanks to Obamacare!

 

[JQPublic1]

See when you post the World Health Organization's rankings... without thinking about it... you disqualify yourself as a thoughtful debater.

Are you telling me, that you really believe that people in Dominica, get better health care than US citizens? You are crazy.

Moreover, you left off Cuba. Cuba was ranked 39th.

See now to a non-thinking individual.... they would say "See that shows how bad US health care is!".

But to a thinking individual... we would say.... huh? Cuba is just two ranks below the US? Cuba? Where buildings collapse on a routine basis? Where people cobble together junk yard parts to make rafts to get to the US? Cuba, where people go to college to get a degree, so they can be a waiter at a resort restaurant?

That Cuba has almost as good of health care, as the US? By just two ranks?

See, if you *want* to believe that socialized care is better than US care, then you just look at the WHO ranks, and say "well that supports what I already believe".

But to any rational person, we look at that and think.. wait a minute....

The truths and tales of Cuban healthcare

By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

And while the preventative healthcare system works well for children, women over the age of 40 are being shortchanged because yearly mammograms are not offered to the population at large.

I saw many hospitals where there was often no running water, the toilets did not flush, and the risk of infections - by the hospital's own admission - was extremely high.​

Ok, so let's review.... 1997, just three years before the 2000 WHO rankings... meaning it would be during this time that the WHO was collecting it's data to make the WHO rankings.....

1. There were shortages of all medicine, all the way down to basic aspirin
2. Medications were being smuggled out by the nurses and doctors to sell illegally
3. Patients bribed doctors with food, money and other gifts just to get appointment, let alone x-rays and blood tests done
4. If you did not have bribe money, or a contact, wait times were months, if not years
5. While the elite had VIP treatment, common Cubans had to queue from dawn, and many times would still fail to be seen.
6. Hospitals and doctors had "allotted numbers" of patients they would see in a day, meaning if you were the number after that allotted number, you didn't get seen. Sucks to be you.
7. Preventative care for children existed, but for everyone else, not so much.
8. Hospitals had no running water, no toilets, and according to the hospitals own staff, infection risks were extremely high.

Did you catch all that? This is Cuba.... the Cuba that the World Health Organization ranked 39th... compared to the US at 37.

And that's the information from just this one article. There are many more things about Cuba, that are insanely bad. Most Cubans are brought to the hospital in a wheelbarrow. Most hospitals don't have an ambulance service. Cuban doctors can lose their jobs if they report that a baby died, so if the infant dies soon after birth, the doctors simply don't report it. It never happened.

A Cuban American went back to visit his mother, and snapped some photos with his phone, while in a hospital.

View attachment 114596

His parents hurt a finger, and needed an X-ray. This is the x-ray room. Ripped bed. 1960s, or 70s x-ray machine. Water damage through the ceiling, and walls.

That's "free" health care. That's 'universal government care'.

This is ranked 39th, and our system is ranked 37th? Really? That's almost on par with our system?

Now if you are rational person, you are asking yourself, how the heck did Cuba get to be almost on par with the US, on a ranking of health care?

And the answer to that, is extremely simple. Because of how they measured the quality of health care.... by not measuring the quality.

I have the WHO report on my computer, and you can verify for yourself everything I am saying. I dare you to.

The following are the percentages of the score, that made the assessment.

Health 50%

Divided into two parts
Over all average 15%
Equality 35%​

Responsiveness 25%

Divided into two parts
Over all average 12.5%
Equality 12.5%​

Fairness of Payment. 25%

Now look at that carefully.... Fairness of payment.... that has nothing to do with the quality. And as long as everyone pays the same, even if they pay nothing, and get nothing... that's fair.

So Cuba automatically get's 25% of the score.

Responsiveness Equality.... As long as it is equally responsive to everyone, even if the response is equally nothing... that's equal.... so Cuba gets 12.5% of the score.

Cuba has 37.5% of the score.

Health Equality.... as long as everyone is equally healthy or equally sick, as long as they are equal... Cuba gets 35% of the score.

Cuba has 72.5% of the score.

Now let's look at the remaining 27.5%.... first the 15% that accounts for "health".

So health is the ability of the health care system to heal cancer? no. To heal diseases? No. To do a heart by-pass? No. To do knee replacement, or hip replacement? To remove a cataract? No.

Health is exclusively 'life expectancy'. That's it. Now, we already know that Cuban doctors simply don't report infant deaths. Of course auto fatalities are rare, because no one owns a car. Suicides are not common, unless you count people dying while attempting to get to the US, which of course the government does not count. And violence in a police state is also very low.

What does any of that have to do with health care? Nothing. Which is why again, I have said over and over, and will continue to say, life expectancy is completely irrelevant to health care.

That leaves responsiveness. This one cracks me up. According to the WHO report, page 32. Again you can check everything I'm saying. Responsiveness is the following....

Respect for dignity 16.7%
Confidentiality 16.7%
Autonomy 16.7%
Prompt attention 20%
Quality of amenities 15%
Access to social support networks 10%
Choice of provider 5%

What does any of this have to do with the quality of the care? "Prompt Attention" was 1/5th of the score, which only counted for 12.5% of the total.

Respect for dignity? What good does that do, if I'm dying of cancer, and all you do is 'respect' me? Confidentiality? If I'm dying, well at least you better keep is a secret until I'm dead? Autonomy? Quality of amenities? We know Cuba didn't get high marks on that one. Most hospitals you had to bring your own blankets, and food. Heck, you had to bring your own water to flush the toilet. Choice of provider? Yeah, the choice was government. That was the only provider. They wish they had a choice. Access to support networks? Yeah, I want to hold hands with someone, more than I want healed.

Now, don't get me wrong, all those things are fine........

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ABILITY OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM TO DIAGNOSE, TREAT, AND HEAL PATIENTS?!?!?!? WHAT ABOUT THAT??!

Not one.... NOT EVEN ONE.... measured the ability of the health care system to....... HEAL...

THAT.... that right there, is why Cuba could be 39th on the list.... while average Cubans can't even get Aspirin. The entire ranking system had nothing to do with the quality of the care. They measure how socialized it was, how 'fair' it was, how equal it was, how long people live in the country. They measured everything, and anything, except how good the care was.

Like all things left-wing and socialized, you have to bend over backwards, and bend yourself into intellectual pretzels, to pretend left-wing socialist policies work.

Let me spell this out. The WHO report is 100% CRAP, from start to finish, and everything in between. It is utter and complete CRAP. And anyone who thinks otherwise..... doesn't think. That's all there is to it.

It would be funny except that the left takes this crap seriously. They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon. It is all good with them until it hits them personally, then look out.


good post

It would set a dangerous precedent for medical personnel doctors to triage patients based upon assumptions that they look like a criminal or violent felon. You are a POS for even thinking that way!

Pure BS imaginary speculation. Typical liberal, we cant have one imaginary wrongdoing so lets screw everyone over.You are a doucherocket for most everything you think.

Did I imagine you said this?:

"They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon."

If you didn't post that, please correct me.

You again are either dishonest or stupid. Reposting what i originally said either shows that you are incapable of following along the train of thought (most likely), or are trying evasion in some sort of dishonest way.

Probably a mixture of both, as your socialist repugnant morals are something lower intellects are attracted to.

HAHAHAHA you are such a damn idiot, further conversation with you is foolhardy. Outbursts like this one will get no response. If you say something worthwhile I will reply!

 

[Rustic]

No one should be forced to pay for what "might" happen... that is no way to live.

The rest of us should not be forced to pay for it when it does happen because you were to irresponsible to plan for it. Don't conservatives constantly bleat about personal responsibility? Do you wait until you have an auto accident to gat auto insurance?

There's a difference between "You should do this" and "We're going to force you to". And since when have conservatives EVER suggested that other people should pick up the tab for someone else's bad choices?

It has nothing to do with what conservatives may or may not have said. It has to do with reality. Know what that is.? Not -alt reality. REALITY . When people don't have insurance, they don't get preventive care. They get sicker than they would have been, go to the ER-where care is very expensive-and get charity care . They go on disability. They stop paying taxes. They are no longer productive. Who the hell do you thing pays for all of that?

Dear TheProgressivePatriot
Instead of arguing in circles about who ends up paying for what
(not just with health insurance, but what about the costs of crime that taxpayers foot the bill for. What about consequences of smoking pot and who is going to pay for that when we can't even agree what consequences are provable or not!)
Why not set up "separate tracks" so people CAN track the costs of their own policies, ie
A. A separate track for REGISTERED DEMOCRATS, PROCHOICE and/or PROLEGALIZATION advocates to live under and pay their taxes to VOLUNTARILY by ORGANIZING exchanges and coops based on party principles and paid membership on terms and conditions that the actual GROUP members vote on democratically
and accept FULL FINANCIAL AND LEGAL RESPONSIBLITIES for.
B. A separate track for REGISTERED REPUBLICANS and PROLIFE and Anti-Drugs advocates to pay taxes to support.

So instead of arguing back and forth, the group members ACCEPT responsibility REGARDLESS of the cost, and quit imposing on others. If any such policy is unsustainable, the group that advocated that policy has agreed to pay the costs, so it's in that groups "best interest" to pick the most cost-effective consistent policies to pay for.

Why not dissolve the union into separate federations of red and blue states roughly along the Mason-Dixon line and have entirely separate political, and economic systems ?

This is better...

 

[JQPublic1]

You are a raving FOOL! I must say you are one of the most persistent idiots I have ever had the displeasure to meet. First of all, I don't believe you ever went to Cuba in 1997 or an other year. Your credibility tanked a long time ago but it sank deeper than whale shit when you tried to shake me down over the Commonwealth Surveys (which included references to the WHO data) and then turned right around and made a counter argument based on a link that used surveys.

The dust hasn't cleared from THAT imbroglio and here you are again, braying incessantly against a reputable world renown entity such as the WHO. You ought to know that you have been written off as a clown!

Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

You are a left wing liar hack, reality and data nean nothing to you as evidenced by this thread. I just gave you the rankings of the best hospitals in the world, no cubans. They have a 'global medical mission' but cant crack the top 30 hospitals list. Many cuban people themselves have risked their lives for decades to escape your socialist paradise hellhole for the usa, that speaks louder than any of your lies. 2 million cubans live in florida, out of a population of 11 million in cuba that is staggering.

Cuba is ranked below the USA on the healthcare systems list. Yet, you want to make Cuba the poster child of socialized medicine to use as a comparison. I'm not going there. I'm focusing on those countries ranked above the USA. But I will say this:

Having the best equipped hospitals doesn't necessarily mean you have the best healthcare system. Primary care usually doesn't even involve hospitals at all. Can someone out there give me an AMEN?

And while Cubans might not enjoy the highest living standards in the world on average, the USA has a sizable population of poor people too...about 43 million of them.. That is about 4 times the population of Cuba (citing you).

But before the ACA, America's poor had limited access to primary care and so did middle classed Americans who couldn't get insured because of pre existing conditions. And those fortunate enough to have insurance faced rising premiums every year. Cuban nationals,OTOH had better access to prime healthcare despite their income levels. Cuba has done a marvelous job considering what they have had to work with.

But I ask you again...why pick on Cuba? Pick one of the countries that have healthcare systems ranking higher than that of the USA. I predict if you do that, the real differences you dread will be highlighted in MY favor!

Back to lying and dishonesty, it is VERY clear WHY the topic of cuba arose, and you have defended and lavished praise on cuba now for 2 pages in this thread, but now suddenly you cant figure out why we are discussing cuba.

Dumb or dishonest? You are both

I figured it out... Two nuts, you and Andy, introduced Cuba, ranked below the USA, into the conversation and decided to ignore the long list of countries AHEAD of the USA on the list.

 

[Rustic]

Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

You are a left wing liar hack, reality and data nean nothing to you as evidenced by this thread. I just gave you the rankings of the best hospitals in the world, no cubans. They have a 'global medical mission' but cant crack the top 30 hospitals list. Many cuban people themselves have risked their lives for decades to escape your socialist paradise hellhole for the usa, that speaks louder than any of your lies. 2 million cubans live in florida, out of a population of 11 million in cuba that is staggering.

Cuba is ranked below the USA on the healthcare systems list. Yet, you want to make Cuba the poster child of socialized medicine to use as a comparison. I'm not going there. I'm focusing on those countries ranked above the USA. But I will say this:

Having the best equipped hospitals doesn't necessarily mean you have the best healthcare system. Primary care usually doesn't even involve hospitals at all. Can someone out there give me an AMEN?

And while Cubans might not enjoy the highest living standards in the world on average, the USA has a sizable population of poor people too...about 43 million of them.. That is about 4 times the population of Cuba (citing you).

But before the ACA, America's poor had limited access to primary care and so did middle classed Americans who couldn't get insured because of pre existing conditions. And those fortunate enough to have insurance faced rising premiums every year. Cuban nationals,OTOH had better access to prime healthcare despite their income levels. Cuba has done a marvelous job considering what they have had to work with.

But I ask you again...why pick on Cuba? Pick one of the countries that have healthcare systems ranking higher than that of the USA. I predict if you do that, the real differences you dread will be highlighted in MY favor!

Back to lying and dishonesty, it is VERY clear WHY the topic of cuba arose, and you have defended and lavished praise on cuba now for 2 pages in this thread, but now suddenly you cant figure out why we are discussing cuba.

Dumb or dishonest? You are both

I figured it out... Two nuts, you and Andy, introduced Cuba, ranked below the USA, into the conversation and decided to ignore the long list of countries AHEAD of the USA on the list.

17 reasons against socialized medicine…

1. To the extent that your mother is living on social security she is already the victim of an actuarially unsound program classified by many as an outright fraud. A large part of your difficulty in meeting bills is the product of this government program designed to "help the aged." You may be sure that a government program designed to "help the sick" would fare no better, and probably worse. People do better if they are charged with personal responsibility for their welfare.

2. Social security payments are reduced or eliminated if your mother earns over $1,200 per year. This particular inequity within the entire inequitable program should be remedied, yet the problems posed by any attempt at "equity" tend to point up the undesirability of seeking "solutions" on a national basis.

3. Your mother’s income is undoubtedly suffering from inflation, which is the result of prior government activity. Please, therefore, do not ask for more government programs. Inflation raises the cost of everything, medical services and supplies included, and such "hidden taxation" affects all income, taxable and nontaxable.

4. If you ask the government to force others (through taxes) to help you in your particular situation, you cannot expect others not to ask government to force you to help them. In all probability you will end by paying out much more than you will receive through this process.

5. Assuming genuine need, private charities and local agencies would be willing and able to do considerably more along lines of aiding you if taxes were not already markedly diminishing their ability and inclination to function. The high progressive rate also tends to discourage many would-be doctors, whose terrific initial educational investment should be allowed to pay off. To the extent that a doctor shortage exists, government must share a substantial portion of the blame. My own dentist has cut his work-week from five days to four because, in the words of his financial adviser, he was "working too many days for the government." Do not, therefore, add to this tax burden.

6. Even assuming that the taxes required to run a program of government medicine might aid your mother in the short run, such taxation would also put more people into her shoes.

7. Government bidding for medical services and supplies would increase costs. Great Britain‘s program has slightly more than tripled such costs. If you are serious in your alarm over high costs, you will resist a government program strongly.

8. Since the program would be designed to help millions of others, and not your mother alone, competition for supplies and services, in addition to raising costs, might make it difficult to obtain any at all. A shortage of goods and services would immediately occur if the government were to attempt to mitigate the effects of its own actions through price controls. Priority given to more serious cases would frustrate immediate treatment of minor cases. A man who could be "back on the job" in minutes might have to wait weeks, with resulting loss of production to himself and to society.

9. A program of socialized medicine, once begun, would be extremely difficult, politically, to abandon, no matter how mistaken the program should prove to be.

10. The vast majority of doctors do not like socialized medicine. The reasons they give—dislike of regimentation, the destruction of doctor-patient relationship, and the like—while important in themselves, are secondary to the inescapable conclusion. If the government seeks to accomplish by force something that would not occur voluntarily and institutes a program which doctors dislike, the result will be fewer, and poorer, doctors. We hardly want this situation.

11. The temptation to "get something for nothing" would prove irresistible for many people. Statistics contrasting the number and length of illnesses of those who have government health insurance (in Great Britain and elsewhere) with those who have private insurance (in the U.S. and elsewhere) provide amusing proof of this. A large portion of government expenditure would go to those whose needs are questionable. This, also, would increase costs. Lack of local administration and responsibility might frequently deny sufficient benefits to those whose needs are genuine.’

12. Socialized medicine would be another long step to total socialism. Socialism, whatever else it may do, hardly increases production. By its emphasis on distribution, it retards production in a thousand ways. This will lower the standard of living for everyone, your mother included.

13. The functions of medicine are basically twofold: administration of known drugs and techniques, and research. We come in contact with the profession through the former, but progress occurs only through the latter.’ Socialized medicine would cause a shifting of emphasis from research to general upkeep, with the result that over-all medical progress would be retarded. The British experience proves this beyond question.

14. Since the science of medicine under free enterprise in the United States has given us the best medical service in the world’s history; since it has prolonged life in a phenomenal manner; since our medical supplies and services are infinitely superior to those in any other country… you should attempt to retain these advantages by fighting to retain the system under which they developed.

15. It is a mistake for the government to consider the problems of the sick apart from those of society as a whole. Such consideration is a private matter, to be solved by private and local methods. Such a narrow outlook on behalf of the government obscures the broader problem which is, in a moral sense, one of promoting respect for the individual and the furtherance of initiative and self-providence; in an economic sense, one of increasing production for the benefit of all citizens;3 and in a political sense, one of removing government as a battlefield for special favor and substituting cohesion and solidarity for division and disintegration.

16. No system, not even the free economy, can give everyone everything he wants at once. It is dangerous to allow or encourage any government to substitute its judgment for that of its citizens. It is well to keep in mind that no country has come close to matching the United States in the solution of the very problem your mother presents. I would recommend investigation of the numerous, actuarially sound private health insurance programs, which already insure a substantial majority of all American families. There are approximately 150 such programs in the United States today. Such diversification provides an ability to suit individual requirements which would be impossible under a federal program.

17. Finally, let us consider the moral issue. You may feel that this is simple—that it is not morally correct for society to neglect those in need. But is there such a thing as "collective morality"?4 Is not moral action exclusively individual? Can any action be moral if it is induced by compulsion? Who is acting and thinking in moral terms: the person who, cognizant of those in need, seeks to remedy the situation insofar as possible by resorting to his own pocketbook, or a person who thinks only in terms of legislation to force everyone else to take care of the problem?

 

[JQPublic1]

These fuckers hear that keep on saying there something good about Cuban medicine government or whatever should go over there and live there hopefully the ******* socialist government beats the ******* shit out of them before they kill them…

You mean like the cops do Blacks here?

 

[Rustic]

These fuckers hear that keep on saying there something good about Cuban medicine government or whatever should go over there and live there hopefully the ******* socialist government beats the ******* shit out of them before they kill them…

You mean like the cops do Blacks here?

That is a nothing burger…
2017 Real Time Death Statistics in America

 

[NCC1701]

Defending Cuban health care as better than the USA? LOL, not even the commonwealth liars would do that

You believe that using non health care related outcomes to measure health care systems is a fine idea, you area a proven complete moron.

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

You are a left wing liar hack, reality and data nean nothing to you as evidenced by this thread. I just gave you the rankings of the best hospitals in the world, no cubans. They have a 'global medical mission' but cant crack the top 30 hospitals list. Many cuban people themselves have risked their lives for decades to escape your socialist paradise hellhole for the usa, that speaks louder than any of your lies. 2 million cubans live in florida, out of a population of 11 million in cuba that is staggering.

Cuba is ranked below the USA on the healthcare systems list. Yet, you want to make Cuba the poster child of socialized medicine to use as a comparison. I'm not going there. I'm focusing on those countries ranked above the USA. But I will say this:

Having the best equipped hospitals doesn't necessarily mean you have the best healthcare system. Primary care usually doesn't even involve hospitals at all. Can someone out there give me an AMEN?

And while Cubans might not enjoy the highest living standards in the world on average, the USA has a sizable population of poor people too...about 43 million of them.. That is about 4 times the population of Cuba (citing you).

But before the ACA, America's poor had limited access to primary care and so did middle classed Americans who couldn't get insured because of pre existing conditions. And those fortunate enough to have insurance faced rising premiums every year. Cuban nationals,OTOH had better access to prime healthcare despite their income levels. Cuba has done a marvelous job considering what they have had to work with.

But I ask you again...why pick on Cuba? Pick one of the countries that have healthcare systems ranking higher than that of the USA. I predict if you do that, the real differences you dread will be highlighted in MY favor!

Back to lying and dishonesty, it is VERY clear WHY the topic of cuba arose, and you have defended and lavished praise on cuba now for 2 pages in this thread, but now suddenly you cant figure out why we are discussing cuba.

Dumb or dishonest? You are both

I figured it out... Two nuts, you and Andy, introduced Cuba, ranked below the USA, into the conversation and decided to ignore the long list of countries AHEAD of the USA on the list.

No dipshit, you introduced the WHO propaganda whackos that ranked cuba statistically right next to the USA. 39th and 37th are close enough to be essentially the same. That is why andy highlighted it, everyone with a decent amount of smarts can see that, which also explains why you cannot.

 

[NCC1701]

It would be funny except that the left takes this crap seriously. They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon. It is all good with them until it hits them personally, then look out.


good post

It would set a dangerous precedent for medical personnel doctors to triage patients based upon assumptions that they look like a criminal or violent felon. You are a POS for even thinking that way!

Pure BS imaginary speculation. Typical liberal, we cant have one imaginary wrongdoing so lets screw everyone over.You are a doucherocket for most everything you think.

Did I imagine you said this?:

"They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon."

If you didn't post that, please correct me.

You again are either dishonest or stupid. Reposting what i originally said either shows that you are incapable of following along the train of thought (most likely), or are trying evasion in some sort of dishonest way.

Probably a mixture of both, as your socialist repugnant morals are something lower intellects are attracted to.

HAHAHAHA you are such a damn idiot, further conversation with you is foolhardy. Outbursts like this one will get no response. If you say something worthwhile I will reply!

Beacause i nailed you again, whenever i catch your lies and deflection, then you pretend to be above the crap you posted.

 

[ph3iron]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Deadbeats = uppity nxxxx? No toothless white Mississippians? Let me guess, high school white boy sucking off his socialist VA, SS medicare benefits

 

[ph3iron]

Keep the gov out of my Medicare, that's what the trumpette said. Medicare overhead 6% private 20%

 

[there4eyeM]

Whatever one wishes to call it, the system in France is working fine.

 

[JQPublic1]

The WHO is in a far better position than you, me or anyone here to rank healthcare systems of the world. I stand with them until someone can provide me with credible evidence from reputable sources that can debunk the data at hand.
You and Andylusion have failed miserably in that regard. Cuba is 39th on the WHO list for a reason. That WHO would place Cuba so relatively high on the list is telling. To me it means that despite the US embargo, the Cubans have managed to keep the faith with Europe and other nations around the world. WHO doesn't judge Cuba the way you do. Cuba's medical contributions aren't limited to Cuba. the Cuban government sends doctors and other medical techs all across the globe to service underserved populations of the world for no cost. You and Andy are so ignorant it defies the imagination.

Here is a note for you. about Cuba's global medical mission:

ELAM (Latin American School of Medicine) Cuba - Wikipedia

You are a left wing liar hack, reality and data nean nothing to you as evidenced by this thread. I just gave you the rankings of the best hospitals in the world, no cubans. They have a 'global medical mission' but cant crack the top 30 hospitals list. Many cuban people themselves have risked their lives for decades to escape your socialist paradise hellhole for the usa, that speaks louder than any of your lies. 2 million cubans live in florida, out of a population of 11 million in cuba that is staggering.

Cuba is ranked below the USA on the healthcare systems list. Yet, you want to make Cuba the poster child of socialized medicine to use as a comparison. I'm not going there. I'm focusing on those countries ranked above the USA. But I will say this:

Having the best equipped hospitals doesn't necessarily mean you have the best healthcare system. Primary care usually doesn't even involve hospitals at all. Can someone out there give me an AMEN?

And while Cubans might not enjoy the highest living standards in the world on average, the USA has a sizable population of poor people too...about 43 million of them.. That is about 4 times the population of Cuba (citing you).

But before the ACA, America's poor had limited access to primary care and so did middle classed Americans who couldn't get insured because of pre existing conditions. And those fortunate enough to have insurance faced rising premiums every year. Cuban nationals,OTOH had better access to prime healthcare despite their income levels. Cuba has done a marvelous job considering what they have had to work with.

But I ask you again...why pick on Cuba? Pick one of the countries that have healthcare systems ranking higher than that of the USA. I predict if you do that, the real differences you dread will be highlighted in MY favor!

Back to lying and dishonesty, it is VERY clear WHY the topic of cuba arose, and you have defended and lavished praise on cuba now for 2 pages in this thread, but now suddenly you cant figure out why we are discussing cuba.

Dumb or dishonest? You are both

I figured it out... Two nuts, you and Andy, introduced Cuba, ranked below the USA, into the conversation and decided to ignore the long list of countries AHEAD of the USA on the list.

No dipshit, you introduced the WHO propaganda whackos that ranked cuba statistically right next to the USA. 39th and 37th are close enough to be essentially the same. That is why andy highlighted it, everyone with a decent amount of smarts can see that, which also explains why you cannot.

I posted a truncated list from my link you lying troll. Mine ended at 37 because I was focusing on the 36 countries ranked ahead of the USA. Andylusion followed the link I had provided as a courtesy, he saw Cuba was ranked just 2 below the USA and seized upon the opportunity to throw Cuba into the mix. That desperate tactic was all he had.

 

[JQPublic1]

It would set a dangerous precedent for medical personnel doctors to triage patients based upon assumptions that they look like a criminal or violent felon. You are a POS for even thinking that way!

Pure BS imaginary speculation. Typical liberal, we cant have one imaginary wrongdoing so lets screw everyone over.You are a doucherocket for most everything you think.

Did I imagine you said this?:

"They want convicted violent felons getting the exact treatment as you and I, while we get to pay for the violent felon."

If you didn't post that, please correct me.

You again are either dishonest or stupid. Reposting what i originally said either shows that you are incapable of following along the train of thought (most likely), or are trying evasion in some sort of dishonest way.

Probably a mixture of both, as your socialist repugnant morals are something lower intellects are attracted to.

HAHAHAHA you are such a damn idiot, further conversation with you is foolhardy. Outbursts like this one will get no response. If you say something worthwhile I will reply!

Beacause i nailed you again, whenever i catch your lies and deflection, then you pretend to be above the crap you posted.

All you are catching here is egg on your face.

 

[JQPublic1]

Whatever one wishes to call it, the system in France is working fine.

INdeed. And, according to Lucia Newman., the former CNN reporter, the Cuban healthcare system has been amazingly resilient.

 

[there4eyeM]

Cuba seems to produce a lot of good doctors. One could imagine Cuba becoming a health care paradise with a sufficient infusion of Yankee capital and infrastructure. Just light up the place with the Internet free and it will all take care of itself.