So…whos fault is it?

Mr. P

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What is a victim? I’m having a knockdown drag out on another site about ‘victims’. Even thought I might be banned.

The thread title is ‘When or is it ever the victims fault’.

My position is sometimes it is the ‘victims’ fault, sometimes fault is shared and sometimes they’re not at fault at all.

Pretty well covers it IMO..The opposition claims the ‘victim’ is never at fault.

What do you folks think?
 

5stringJeff

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I think you're right on. Some victims of crimes put themselves in bad circumstances, so the blame is at least partially theirs.
 
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Mr. P

Mr. P

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Maybe we could have a hint here on what you are driving at?
Because it might not be fault more than pure ignorance and not knowing any better
Is pure ignorance and excuse? Maybe, it depends on age? IMO, That would fall into 'sometimes they’re not at fault at all'.
 

90K

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Is pure ignorance and excuse? Maybe, it depends on age? IMO, That would fall into 'sometimes they’re not at fault at all'.
Rape vitim for example. She was wearing a very short mini, fishnets and pumps and cleavage showing. She was very friendly and wasn't being over flirty, but got raped? Did she understand wearing that clothing made her a target of harassment? and because of the location she became open season. So was she just stupid or innocent playing the field because of the attention she was given? One sided here from a males perspective. But I'd say she was a victim, but here ignorance of her surroundings and how to dress made her a victim. My take. If it happened twice then I'd have to wonder WTF over!
 

Hobbit

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I think it can go all three ways. Continuing with the rape example:

Victim's Fault:

She goes to a club wearing next to nothing. She lets herself be picked up by a guy who's obviously horny. After some conversation and dancing, he suggests going back to his place...and leaves no guesses as to what they'll be doing there. When they get there, the foreplay begins and she's enjoying every second of it. Then, when they're only seconds away from the actual 'act,' she backs out. Guy goes ahead anyway. She doesn't really put up a fight. In this case, she basically said she wanted sex about 1000 times, and only said no once, and then at a point in time when the guy was too overrun with hormones to really comprehend. Yeah, the guy should have stopped, but who can honestly say with absolute certainty that they have the willpower to do so in said situation. If she didn't want sex, she should have said so instead of screaming 'screw my brains out' with every action she took.

Partial Victim's Fault:

Same scenario, except she says no during the initial necking. The guy clearly could have stopped, but she set herself up in a very comprimising situation by being at a guy's house alone when he made it perfectly clear that the two of them were there to have sex. With the kind of signals he was sending out, it should be pretty clear to anybody with half a brain that she shouldn't have gone to his house.

Not at all the Victim's Fault:

Scenario starts the same, except the skimpy clothing is irrelevant. She goes to a club, talks to a guy. He seems interested in a little nocturnal activity, but she's not. However, she does get a bit tipsy and asks him for a ride home. He does so, follows her in the house, and rapes her. While there were a couple of mistakes she made (such as getting a ride home alone with a stranger), the rape was in no way, shape, or form her fault. That guy is 100% predator.

Anyway, that's my take. Some might draw the lines in different places, but I think these three extreme examples illustrate about where I stand.
 

jillian

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I think it can go all three ways. Continuing with the rape example:

Victim's Fault:

She goes to a club wearing next to nothing. She lets herself be picked up by a guy who's obviously horny. After some conversation and dancing, he suggests going back to his place...and leaves no guesses as to what they'll be doing there. When they get there, the foreplay begins and she's enjoying every second of it. Then, when they're only seconds away from the actual 'act,' she backs out. Guy goes ahead anyway. She doesn't really put up a fight. In this case, she basically said she wanted sex about 1000 times, and only said no once, and then at a point in time when the guy was too overrun with hormones to really comprehend. Yeah, the guy should have stopped, but who can honestly say with absolute certainty that they have the willpower to do so in said situation. If she didn't want sex, she should have said so instead of screaming 'screw my brains out' with every action she took.
Bullshit. You get to change your mind at any time. He can't take no for an answer, that's on him. By the by, dressing suggestively is no more an invitation for a criminal act than having a nice house and nice possessions makes the victim responsible for a robbery that takes place in his/her home.

Partial Victim's Fault:

Same scenario, except she says no during the initial necking. The guy clearly could have stopped, but she set herself up in a very comprimising situation by being at a guy's house alone when he made it perfectly clear that the two of them were there to have sex. With the kind of signals he was sending out, it should be pretty clear to anybody with half a brain that she shouldn't have gone to his house.
Again... garbage. She said no. It means no. Being alone with someone isn't putting oneself in a "compromising position".

Not at all the Victim's Fault:

Scenario starts the same, except the skimpy clothing is irrelevant. She goes to a club, talks to a guy. He seems interested in a little nocturnal activity, but she's not. However, she does get a bit tipsy and asks him for a ride home. He does so, follows her in the house, and rapes her. While there were a couple of mistakes she made (such as getting a ride home alone with a stranger), the rape was in no way, shape, or form her fault. That guy is 100% predator.

Anyway, that's my take. Some might draw the lines in different places, but I think these three extreme examples illustrate about where I stand.
They're all the criminal's fault, dude.
 

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I think it can go all three ways. Continuing with the rape example:

Victim's Fault:

She goes to a club wearing next to nothing. She lets herself be picked up by a guy who's obviously horny. After some conversation and dancing, he suggests going back to his place...and leaves no guesses as to what they'll be doing there. When they get there, the foreplay begins and she's enjoying every second of it. Then, when they're only seconds away from the actual 'act,' she backs out. Guy goes ahead anyway. She doesn't really put up a fight. In this case, she basically said she wanted sex about 1000 times, and only said no once, and then at a point in time when the guy was too overrun with hormones to really comprehend. Yeah, the guy should have stopped, but who can honestly say with absolute certainty that they have the willpower to do so in said situation. If she didn't want sex, she should have said so instead of screaming 'screw my brains out' with every action she took.

Partial Victim's Fault:

Same scenario, except she says no during the initial necking. The guy clearly could have stopped, but she set herself up in a very comprimising situation by being at a guy's house alone when he made it perfectly clear that the two of them were there to have sex. With the kind of signals he was sending out, it should be pretty clear to anybody with half a brain that she shouldn't have gone to his house.

Not at all the Victim's Fault:

Scenario starts the same, except the skimpy clothing is irrelevant. She goes to a club, talks to a guy. He seems interested in a little nocturnal activity, but she's not. However, she does get a bit tipsy and asks him for a ride home. He does so, follows her in the house, and rapes her. While there were a couple of mistakes she made (such as getting a ride home alone with a stranger), the rape was in no way, shape, or form her fault. That guy is 100% predator.

Anyway, that's my take. Some might draw the lines in different places, but I think these three extreme examples illustrate about where I stand.
I like it and it hit the points of the topic.
 

90K

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Bullshit. You get to change your mind at any time. He can't take no for an answer, that's on him. By the by, dressing suggestively is no more an invitation for a criminal act than having a nice house and nice possessions makes the victim responsible for a robbery that takes place in his/her home.



Again... garbage. She said no. It means no. Being alone with someone isn't putting oneself in a "compromising position".



They're all the criminal's fault, dude.
I would say on this answer about dressing: Do you understand the males mind? if you do then you'll clearly know we are attracted to sight. So if it is appealing then it will attract us. It ain't cute, it is arousing! I'm not stirring the pot here I'm merely making a comment that I believe many women are clueless about. Yes if she was wearing that then in all rights she should have been safe. But adding social issues as you dress that way then it's game on is also a common problem. So who is right and who is wrong. I don't go to the barber shop unless I need a hair cut, same with the bar i go to get frigging wasted. That is me, so I say social issues are part of the victim scenario

And because you are older here not using age, but experience in life you wouldn't dress that way would you? This then would be about being wise. A clear difference of looking good and looking easy.
 

jillian

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I would say on this answer about dressing: Do you understand the males mind? if you do then you'll clearly know we are attracted to sight. So if it is appealing then it will attract us. It ain't cute, it is arousing! I'm not stirring the pot here I'm merely making a comment that I believe many women are clueless about. Yes if she was wearing that then in all rights she should have been safe. But adding social issues as you dress that way then it's game on is also a common problem. So who is right and who is wrong. I don't go to the barber shop unless I need a hair cut, same with the bar i go to get frigging wasted. That is me, so I say social issues are part of the victim scenario
A normal male doesn't force himself on someone unwilling.

Rape is a crime of violence, not sex. The sex is incidental to domination and rage.

And if I wear something that's low cut and shows a lot of cleavage or a skirt that's very short, it doesn't give someone the right to put their hands on me.
 

lilcountriegal

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In Hobbit's description, I agree with Jillian.

I do, however, believe that there are Victim's fault, Partial fault, and no fault at all, I just think Hobbit's examples were poor ones in differentiating the three.

In the instance of rape, the only scenario where I can conceive of a rape victim being at fault is if the foreplay was rough, role playing type scenario then AFTERWARDS she said that she "meant no". That would mean the male would have no way of differentiating between the rough roleplaying and actual rape.... hence, victim's fault.
 

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A normal male doesn't force himself on someone unwilling.

Rape is a crime of violence, not sex. The sex is incidental to domination and rage.
On the splitting hair side of thing with regards to law; yes that would be correct. And I wasn't referring it as a nothing act. I guess I was focusing on dress and appearance mainly. Many times it is interpretation that leads people to get into a mess.
 

5stringJeff

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Rape is probably a bad issue to illustrate Mr. P.'s point. Let's look at a victim who got hit by a car instead. An innocent bystander on the sidewalk who's paying attention is truly a victim. A drunk guy who jaywalked in the middle of the night on a dark street who gets hit is pretty much to blame for his own actions.
 

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In Hobbit's description, I agree with Jillian.

I do, however, believe that there are Victim's fault, Partial fault, and no fault at all, I just think Hobbit's examples were poor ones in differentiating the three.

In the instance of rape, the only scenario where I can conceive of a rape victim being at fault is if the foreplay was rough, role playing type scenario then AFTERWARDS she said that she "meant no". That would mean the male would have no way of differentiating between the rough roleplaying and actual rape.... hence, victim's fault.
thus the differences in male thoughts and female thoughts. I personnally liked his approach and I could relate, however shallow I understood it. But I can see from a women view point the example at best is lame. his example was better said than mine infact.
 

90K

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Rape is probably a bad issue to illustrate Mr. P.'s point. Let's look at a victim who got hit by a car instead. An innocent bystander on the sidewalk who's paying attention is truly a victim. A drunk guy who jaywalked in the middle of the night on a dark street who gets hit is pretty much to blame for his own actions.
I asked for a topic to begin with to show comparison.
 

lilcountriegal

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I would say on this answer about dressing: Do you understand the males mind? if you do then you'll clearly know we are attracted to sight. So if it is appealing then it will attract us. It ain't cute, it is arousing! I'm not stirring the pot here I'm merely making a comment that I believe many women are clueless about. Yes if she was wearing that then in all rights she should have been safe. But adding social issues as you dress that way then it's game on is also a common problem. So who is right and who is wrong. I don't go to the barber shop unless I need a hair cut, same with the bar i go to get frigging wasted. That is me, so I say social issues are part of the victim scenario

And because you are older here not using age, but experience in life you wouldn't dress that way would you? This then would be about being wise. A clear difference of looking good and looking easy.
Im not sure if dressing a certain way should even be in a rape scenario. When my husband and I go out to bars together, he prefers I wear short skirts and get dressed up... I still wear my wedding rings. I like to dance, he does not. So, alot of times, I am on the dance floor with some friends and my husband is sitting at the bar. Because I am comfortable with my body, and my husband is comfortable with my clothes, that certainly does not invite rape.

A rapist is a rapist is a rapist... I dont think what someone wears is a large factor... while it may originate the arousal, a rapist will strike regardless. For instance, we had a rapist who was targeting elderly women near where I live... I'm sure they weren't dressed provocitavely (spelling sucks). A rapist prefers a type of woman and they will prey on that type of woman, regardless of what she's wearing.
 
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Mr. P

Mr. P

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Well I was trying to tie the together, but it slipped a little.
The other site is focusing on rape too...Seems to be a big issue with the women. :insert sarcasim laugh: ( Disney Similes won't do.)

But, on the rape thing. A woman parks in the un-lit less crowed (I wonder why) back lot of a mall. Comes back to her car and is raped. Was she at fault at all? I say, yes.

If a well dressed man (coat and tie) walks through watts at 2 a.m. and is mugged is he at fault at all? I say, yes.
 

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