So What Do You Think Is A Fair And Decent Wage?...

[Uncensored2008]

That wouldn't solve any problems. If all Fast Food Workers did go on Strike tomorrow, the implications would be very serious and far-reaching.

No, they wouldn't.

First of all, they can't "go on strike," they can only quit. If they walk off, they are replaced and everything goes on as usual.

Yes they would possibly be replaced, but at an incredibly large cost. You would be better off just conceding and paying them a bit more.

What cost are you thinking of? The 5 minutes to train the new worker how to press the "chicken" picture to sell a chicken sandwich?

These Workers really are more valuable than most think.

Only because you want to loot them for your pension.

They're a big part of many Citizens' daily lives. And the same can be said about many many other Workers.

No, the business is a small part - but the individual, unskilled worker is not.

They provide skills & services to the Millions of Americans who want and need them.

They have no skills, which is why they work fast food.

Americans just need to start respecting all American Workers. They are valuable important people. They're not the worthless undesirables many make them out to be. In fact, without them, the Nation would grind to a halt.

You want your union to gain control of fast food so that you can loot the industry to pay your failing pension costs.

It won't happen. It is a pipe dream. If fast food workers walk off the job, they're fired - end of story. The only way your dream of massive strikes bringing the economy to a halt can happen is if the government mandates that fast food workers can't be fire for walking off. The shameful democrats and the unions who own them don't have anywhere the needed political power to pull off such and illegal and unconstitutional act.

 

[paulitician]

Sorry to break it to ya, but that's not the truth. The implications would be serious and far-reaching. Most would be very surprised to realize how important these Workers are to their daily lives. And that goes for many many other 'Undesirables' or 'Low-Skilled Workers.' They're actually vital to the Citizens and the Economy. Americans just need to stop with the arrogant inhumane mentality when it comes to 'Low-Skilled' Workers. Every American Worker provides skills & services to Millions of Americans who want and need them. Americans just need to change their approach. All American Workers deserve respect.

In the first place "low skilled workers" doesn't mean they have no skills, are undesirable or do not work.
It means their skills are not advanced ... Therefore they don't get paid as much because it isn't hard to find them.
Every worker is valuable and they do get respect ... It is called "pay".

If you aren't getting the "pay" or "respect" you want ... Then you better get some more skills.

.

If all the 'Undesirables'/'Low-Skilled Workers' organized and went on Strike, Millions of Americans would immediately realize just how much they need them. They're actually a big part of most Americans' daily lives. They're definitely under-appreciated and disrespected. I fully understand why they're so angry.

 

[RKMBrown]

FYI I recently calculated that number for my second son to illustrate to him what type of job he should shoot for if he wants to live in texas and have a family. My number came out to around 60k being a decent wage for a single income family with a stay at home mom. My number came out to around 70k (or 35k avg) for a two wage family with a goes to work mom. The point of discussion was what types of jobs are viable jobs to live out that American Dream.

That dream was a basic apartment, health care, utilities, food, two cars, etc. Nothing extravagant.

Looks like the MIT site pretty much agrees with my numbers.

My daughter and her husband were raising two children on half that, in Texas.

Yeah but we are trying to discuss this without taking into account welfare checks, right? Plus the discussion leaned to American Dream, not just "surviving."

 

[paulitician]

That wouldn't solve any problems. If all Fast Food Workers did go on Strike tomorrow, the implications would be very serious and far-reaching.

No, they wouldn't.

First of all, they can't "go on strike," they can only quit. If they walk off, they are replaced and everything goes on as usual.

Yes they would possibly be replaced, but at an incredibly large cost. You would be better off just conceding and paying them a bit more.

What cost are you thinking of? The 5 minutes to train the new worker how to press the "chicken" picture to sell a chicken sandwich?



Only because you want to loot them for your pension.



No, the business is a small part - but the individual, unskilled worker is not.

They provide skills & services to the Millions of Americans who want and need them.

They have no skills, which is why they work fast food.

Americans just need to start respecting all American Workers. They are valuable important people. They're not the worthless undesirables many make them out to be. In fact, without them, the Nation would grind to a halt.

You want your union to gain control of fast food so that you can loot the industry to pay your failing pension costs.

It won't happen. It is a pipe dream. If fast food workers walk off the job, they're fired - end of story. The only way your dream of massive strikes bringing the economy to a halt can happen is if the government mandates that fast food workers can't be fire for walking off. The shameful democrats and the unions who own them don't have anywhere the needed political power to pull off such and illegal and unconstitutional act.

No offense, but you're just not being realistic. Instantly replacing Millions of Fast Food Workers would be a massive incredibly costly endeavor. Conducting Background Checks, Drug Tests, and Training new-hires can be quite costly. It just wouldn't be feasible to replace them all. You would be much better off just paying them a bit better. Unfortunately, Striking is probably their only way of showing Americans how much they're needed. Americans are very fortunate the 'Undesirables'/'Low-Skilled Workers' aren't organized. Because if they were, Americans would find out pretty quickly how much they rely on these Workers.

 

[RKMBrown]

I'm just dealing with the reality. Children are usually involved. But you gave a number you feel someone can survive on in today's America. I appreciate that. Doesn't matter whether or not i agree with that number. It's your assessment. Thanks.

It hasn't been all that long ago that people who could not or would not support their kids had those kids taken away until the parents could and would support them. Such a concept is unthinkable now to those who think all people should be subsidized no matter how irresponsibile or lazy they are, most especially if they have children. Thus, we have generations of kids growing up seeing the parent be paid not to work and growing up thinking that if getting an education or holding a crappy job is too hard, then the government will provide. And believing they are owed by society.

So how about we return to societal expectations that people will get married before they have kids, people will have a paying job capable of supporting a family before they have kids, and people return to the idea that minimum wage is what they get paid when they are unskilled and not that much value to their employer, but they use it to acquire skills, work ethic, experience, and references so that they don't have to work for minimum wage? Wouldn't that be a far more compassionate and humane way to approach the problem?

DISCLAIMER: Those who through no fault of their own have fallen on hard times are NOT included in the above scenarios.

That sets up a big conundrum.

Should a person with a PhD get the same wage or more than someone with a GED?

Should a person with no education get the same wage or more as one that completed high school?

Who would decide such complex problems?

It's called a pay-scale. They are set up by the employer. See my earlier post explaining the typical factors of pay-scales.

 

[BlackSand]

If all the 'Undesirables'/'Low-Skilled Workers' organized and went on Strike, Millions of Americans would immediately realize just how much they need them. They're actually a big part of most Americans' daily lives. They're definitely under-appreciated and disrespected. I fully understand why they're so angry.

You really don't understand much at all ... Especially about respect.
It doesn't matter if you go on strike or not ... True respect is something you cannot demand from someone else.
If you demand respect the only thing you can achieve is obedience ... And any respect you get for free has no value.

You can only desire to earn respect ... And if you do what is necessary to earn respect you don't have to demand anything.

.

 

[RKMBrown]

That wouldn't solve any problems. If all Fast Food Workers did go on Strike tomorrow, the implications would be very serious and far-reaching.

No, they wouldn't.

First of all, they can't "go on strike," they can only quit. If they walk off, they are replaced and everything goes on as usual.



What cost are you thinking of? The 5 minutes to train the new worker how to press the "chicken" picture to sell a chicken sandwich?



Only because you want to loot them for your pension.



No, the business is a small part - but the individual, unskilled worker is not.



They have no skills, which is why they work fast food.

Americans just need to start respecting all American Workers. They are valuable important people. They're not the worthless undesirables many make them out to be. In fact, without them, the Nation would grind to a halt.

You want your union to gain control of fast food so that you can loot the industry to pay your failing pension costs.

It won't happen. It is a pipe dream. If fast food workers walk off the job, they're fired - end of story. The only way your dream of massive strikes bringing the economy to a halt can happen is if the government mandates that fast food workers can't be fire for walking off. The shameful democrats and the unions who own them don't have anywhere the needed political power to pull off such and illegal and unconstitutional act.

No offense, but you're just not being realistic. Instantly replacing Millions of Fast Food Workers would be a massive incredibly costly endeavor. Conducting Background Checks, Drug Tests, and Training new-hires can be quite costly. It just wouldn't be feasible to replace them all. You would be much better off just paying them a bit better. Unfortunately, Striking is probably their only way of showing Americans how much they're needed. Americans are very fortunate the 'Undesirables'/'Low-Skilled Workers' aren't organized. Because if they were, Americans would find out pretty quickly how much they rely on these Workers.

Or not. Self-service systems are not that hard to setup. When the workers providing services become to expensive, many times the customers decide they don't need em. Look at full-service gas stations for an example.

 

[paulitician]

God help all those arrogant inhumane Americans out there, if the 'Undesirables'/'Low-Skilled Workers' ever do get organized. Talk about rude awakening time? If the tables ever do get turned, it's gonna be very interesting. The Undesirables just need to get organized. There's strength in numbers. And they do have the numbers. Now they just need to figure out how to get organized.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm just dealing with the reality. Children are usually involved. But you gave a number you feel someone can survive on in today's America. I appreciate that. Doesn't matter whether or not i agree with that number. It's your assessment. Thanks.

It hasn't been all that long ago that people who could not or would not support their kids had those kids taken away until the parents could and would support them. Such a concept is unthinkable now to those who think all people should be subsidized no matter how irresponsibile or lazy they are, most especially if they have children. Thus, we have generations of kids growing up seeing the parent be paid not to work and growing up thinking that if getting an education or holding a crappy job is too hard, then the government will provide. And believing they are owed by society.

So how about we return to societal expectations that people will get married before they have kids, people will have a paying job capable of supporting a family before they have kids, and people return to the idea that minimum wage is what they get paid when they are unskilled and not that much value to their employer, but they use it to acquire skills, work ethic, experience, and references so that they don't have to work for minimum wage? Wouldn't that be a far more compassionate and humane way to approach the problem?

DISCLAIMER: Those who through no fault of their own have fallen on hard times are NOT included in the above scenarios.

That sets up a big conundrum.

Should a person with a PhD get the same wage or more than someone with a GED?

Should a person with no education get the same wage or more as one that completed high school?

Who would decide such complex problems?

The person should receive the wage that represents the value of his/her labor to his/her employer. The PhD will offer credentials that make him/her more valuable in any position requiring such credentials, but will not make him/her more valuable to me in my business. The person with good people skills, math skills, computer skills, and experience/training in a specific area who can do work that keep my clients happy can be very valuable to me. Their level of education is far less important to me than what they can actually do.

So it should be the employer who sets the value of the labor. Only he or she knows what it is worth to him. Conversely the employee knows what he or she needs as a living wage and, in times of full employment, is in a great position to sell his/her particular abilities, skill set, and track record to the highest bidder. And he/she will almost always net a higher wage in times of full employment than he/she can do when there are many more people with the same qualifications vieing for the same job.

 

[RKMBrown]

God help all those arrogant inhumane Americans out there, if the 'Undesirables'/'Low-Skilled Workers' ever do get organized. Talk about rude awakening time? If the tables ever do get turned, it's gonna be very interesting. The Undesirables just need to get organized. There's strength in numbers. And they do have the numbers. Now they just need to figure out how to get organized.

I'm curious, can you name one undesirable job that can't be eliminated entirely?

 

[LoneLaugher]

God help all those arrogant inhumane Americans out there, if the 'Undesirables'/'Low-Skilled Workers' ever do get organized. Talk about rude awakening time? If the tables ever do get turned, it's gonna be very interesting. The Undesirables just need to get organized. There's strength in numbers. And they do have the numbers. Now they just need to figure out how to get organized.

I'm curious, can you name one undesirable job that can't be eliminated entirely?

No......you aren't arrogant at all.

 

[BDBoop]

Conversely;

 

[Foxfyre]

Conversely;

I don't look down on them. I started out my working life doing low skill menial labor odd jobs like that. So did Mr. Foxfyre. But both of us, job by job, improved our situation until we were enjoying work we loved and were earning a comfortable wage.

Both of our kids worked in fast food in highschool and college. And each of them now hugely outearns Mr. Foxfyre and myself when we were at the very top of our earnings. Those fast food and other low level jobs helped us all develop a work ethic, get some honest to goodness experience, develop some skills, and acquire references that opened much more lucrative doors for us later on until we were ready to enter the professional world in the careers we prepared ourselves to excel in.

But if those first employers had been required to pay us a living wage while we learned and prepared ourselves to do better, we never would have been hired for those jobs in the first place.

 

[BDBoop]

Conversely;

I don't look down on them. I started out my working life doing low skill menial labor odd jobs like that. So did Mr. Foxfyre. But both of us, job by job, improved our situation until we were enjoying work we loved and were earning a comfortable wage.

Both of my kids worked in fast food in highschool and college. And each of them now hugely outearns Mr. Foxfyre and myself when we were at the very top of our earnings. Those fast food and other low level helped us all develop a work ethic, get some honest to goodness experience, develop some skills, and acquire references that opened much more lucrative doors for us later on until we were ready to enter the professional world in the careers we prepared ourselves to excel in.

But if those first employers had been required to pay us a living wage while we learned and prepared ourselves to do better, we never would have been hired for those jobs in the first place.

You two apparently are quite intelligent. Not all are. I know you get that. I'm not sure others on the board do.

Not everybody is management material. Or office material. Not all graduated high school. People make mistakes, bad life choices, or just never escape the life level they were born to.

I do not believe it follows, "And therefore, you must suffer further, because corporate greed is the price you (and the government) will pay."

I will ALWAYS believe that if somebody is working 40 hours, they deserve to be able to afford the basics.

NOT have to be on welfare, because - and this is completely ridiculous - they qualify.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Conversely;

I don't look down on them. I started out my working life doing low skill menial labor odd jobs like that. So did Mr. Foxfyre. But both of us, job by job, improved our situation until we were enjoying work we loved and were earning a comfortable wage.

Both of our kids worked in fast food in highschool and college. And each of them now hugely outearns Mr. Foxfyre and myself when we were at the very top of our earnings. Those fast food and other low level jobs helped us all develop a work ethic, get some honest to goodness experience, develop some skills, and acquire references that opened much more lucrative doors for us later on until we were ready to enter the professional world in the careers we prepared ourselves to excel in.

But if those first employers had been required to pay us a living wage while we learned and prepared ourselves to do better, we never would have been hired for those jobs in the first place.

Don't strain your arm.

 

[RKMBrown]

God help all those arrogant inhumane Americans out there, if the 'Undesirables'/'Low-Skilled Workers' ever do get organized. Talk about rude awakening time? If the tables ever do get turned, it's gonna be very interesting. The Undesirables just need to get organized. There's strength in numbers. And they do have the numbers. Now they just need to figure out how to get organized.

I'm curious, can you name one undesirable job that can't be eliminated entirely?

No......you aren't arrogant at all.

What does my arrogance have to do with the question?

 

[RKMBrown]

Conversely;

I don't look down on them. I started out my working life doing low skill menial labor odd jobs like that. So did Mr. Foxfyre. But both of us, job by job, improved our situation until we were enjoying work we loved and were earning a comfortable wage.

Both of my kids worked in fast food in highschool and college. And each of them now hugely outearns Mr. Foxfyre and myself when we were at the very top of our earnings. Those fast food and other low level helped us all develop a work ethic, get some honest to goodness experience, develop some skills, and acquire references that opened much more lucrative doors for us later on until we were ready to enter the professional world in the careers we prepared ourselves to excel in.

But if those first employers had been required to pay us a living wage while we learned and prepared ourselves to do better, we never would have been hired for those jobs in the first place.

You two apparently are quite intelligent. Not all are. I know you get that. I'm not sure others on the board do.

Not everybody is management material. Or office material. Not all graduated high school. People make mistakes, bad life choices, or just never escape the life level they were born to.

I do not believe it follows, "And therefore, you must suffer further, because corporate greed is the price you (and the government) will pay."

I will ALWAYS believe that if somebody is working 40 hours, they deserve to be able to afford the basics.

NOT have to be on welfare, because - and this is completely ridiculous - they qualify.

What does intelligence have to do with skill and effort? And why should we pay someone 30bucks an hour to take food orders at Burger King? Why should anyone be able to achieve the American Dream for taking food orders at Burger King? That is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Foxfyre]

Conversely;

I don't look down on them. I started out my working life doing low skill menial labor odd jobs like that. So did Mr. Foxfyre. But both of us, job by job, improved our situation until we were enjoying work we loved and were earning a comfortable wage.

Both of my kids worked in fast food in highschool and college. And each of them now hugely outearns Mr. Foxfyre and myself when we were at the very top of our earnings. Those fast food and other low level helped us all develop a work ethic, get some honest to goodness experience, develop some skills, and acquire references that opened much more lucrative doors for us later on until we were ready to enter the professional world in the careers we prepared ourselves to excel in.

But if those first employers had been required to pay us a living wage while we learned and prepared ourselves to do better, we never would have been hired for those jobs in the first place.

You two apparently are quite intelligent. Not all are. I know you get that. I'm not sure others on the board do.

Not everybody is management material. Or office material. Not all graduated high school. People make mistakes, bad life choices, or just never escape the life level they were born to.

I do not believe it follows, "And therefore, you must suffer further, because corporate greed is the price you (and the government) will pay."

I will ALWAYS believe that if somebody is working 40 hours, they deserve to be able to afford the basics.

NOT have to be on welfare, because - and this is completely ridiculous - they qualify.

I would invite you to read over some of the arguments and discussion in the greed, giving, or government thread. (It's in general discussion not because I put it there.) What is corporate greed other than profits? And what makes the employee's profit motive any more noble than the person taking the risk, sometimes a risk of all they have, to start and run a business that allows other to profit? Except for the jobs that I willingly volunteer for, I don't work for anybody without an expectation that I will profit from it. I don't work for an employer for HIS or HER benefit. I work for my own benefit. Is that greed? Or is that how the world works?

My sister, a 30-year veteran of the New Mexico school system, and a state acclaimed highschool music teacher with a master's degree, and my brother-in-law, also a 30-year veteran of the NM schools and superintendent of schools, retired at a relatively young age. And they both, on a lark, applied to be greeters at Walmart. Walmart hired them both but not as greeters--they were assigned to the sports and music departments respectively based on their skill sets. (My BIL was a football coach before he got into administration.) They were both started above minimum wage but not at a 'living wage'. That they would have to work their way up to as all other people do. But they didn't need a 'living wage' nor did they want to work full time. They wanted some mad and fun money above and beyond their retirement income. And Walmart provided that for them quite nicely.

They both fairly soon tired of that and moved on to other things, but that is just one example where a big 'greedy' corporation and two 'greedy' employees who worked only for money struck a mutually beneficial deal and served each other well.

As for the person starting out on a 40-hour week expecting to earn a living wage when he or she is not qualified to produce profits for his employer that would cover that living wage, well, he needs to do what he can to make himself more valuable. I myself, have started at the very bottom many times over, just to get my foot in the door, and I knew I had to prove that I was more valuable than that starting wage in order to get a better one.

Nobody in business can afford to pay his/her employees more than those employees earn for the business owner and hope to stay in business.

 

[BDBoop]

I don't look down on them. I started out my working life doing low skill menial labor odd jobs like that. So did Mr. Foxfyre. But both of us, job by job, improved our situation until we were enjoying work we loved and were earning a comfortable wage.

Both of my kids worked in fast food in highschool and college. And each of them now hugely outearns Mr. Foxfyre and myself when we were at the very top of our earnings. Those fast food and other low level helped us all develop a work ethic, get some honest to goodness experience, develop some skills, and acquire references that opened much more lucrative doors for us later on until we were ready to enter the professional world in the careers we prepared ourselves to excel in.

But if those first employers had been required to pay us a living wage while we learned and prepared ourselves to do better, we never would have been hired for those jobs in the first place.

You two apparently are quite intelligent. Not all are. I know you get that. I'm not sure others on the board do.

Not everybody is management material. Or office material. Not all graduated high school. People make mistakes, bad life choices, or just never escape the life level they were born to.

I do not believe it follows, "And therefore, you must suffer further, because corporate greed is the price you (and the government) will pay."

I will ALWAYS believe that if somebody is working 40 hours, they deserve to be able to afford the basics.

NOT have to be on welfare, because - and this is completely ridiculous - they qualify.

I would invite you to read over some of the arguments and discussion in the greed, giving, or government thread. (It's in general discussion not because I put it there.) What is corporate greed other than profits? And what makes the employee's profit motive any more noble than the person taking the risk, sometimes a risk of all they have, to start and run a business that allows other to profit? Except for the jobs that I willingly volunteer for, I don't work for anybody without an expectation that I will profit from it. I don't work for an employer for HIS or HER benefit. I work for my own benefit. Is that greed? Or is that how the world works?

My sister, a 30-year veteran of the New Mexico school system, and a state acclaimed highschool music teacher with a master's degree, and my brother-in-law, also a 30-year veteran of the NM schools and superintendent of schools, retired at a relatively young age. And they both, on a lark, applied to be greeters at Walmart. Walmart hired them both but not as greeters--they were assigned to the sports and music departments respectively based on their skill sets. (My BIL was a football coach before he got into administration.) They were both started above minimum wage but not at a 'living wage'. That they would have to work their way up to as all other people do. But they didn't need a 'living wage' nor did they want to work full time. They wanted some mad and fun money above and beyond their retirement income. And Walmart provided that for them quite nicely.

They both fairly soon tired of that and moved on to other things, but that is just one example where a big 'greedy' corporation and two 'greedy' employees who worked only for money struck a mutually beneficial deal and served each other well.

As for the person starting out on a 40-hour week expecting to earn a living wage when he or she is not qualified to produce profits for his employer that would cover that living wage, well, he needs to do what he can to make himself more valuable. I myself, have started at the very bottom many times over, just to get my foot in the door, and I knew I had to prove that I was more valuable than that starting wage in order to get a better one.

Nobody in business can afford to pay his/her employees more than those employees earn for the business owner and hope to stay in business.

It's not profit. Making a living wage is not profiting. It's surviving.

 

[BDBoop]

I honestly don't know why you are not understanding that there are stupid people in the world.