Snowden vs. Manning.

[dblack]

More: Edward Snowden: From GED To NSA? | TPMMuckraker

Uh? Why does it matter?

Because it's another two bits for Spmahontas.

I can only assume Lakhota is 'cashing out'.

 

[dblack]

More: Edward Snowden: From GED To NSA? | TPMMuckraker

Something just doesn't pass the smell test with this guy........

I agree...

If you stopped shilling long enough to shower, the air might clear a bit....

 

[Sallow]

Yeah, of reporting a war crime.

He should be a witness in a congressional investigation, not a defendant in a court sanctioned lynching.

That's not all that Manning did..

He showed a government, acting in our name, committing war crimes with absolute malice. He showed that what we're doing in these country's are more akin to Weimar, Germany, than they are to the US of A.

The Afghans, the Iraqis, the Yemenis, the Pakistanis and the Somalis know what American military forces do. They do not need to read WikiLeaks. They have seen the bodies, including the bodies of their children, left behind by drone strikes and other attacks from the air. They have buried the corpses of those gunned down by coalition forces. With fury, they hear our government tell lies, accounts that are discredited by the reality they endure. Our wanton violence and hypocrisy make us hated and despised, fueling the rage of jihadists and amassing legions of new enemies against the United States. Manning, by providing a window into the truth, opened up the possibility of redemption. He offered hope for a new relationship with the Muslim world, one based on compassion and honesty, on the rule of law, rather than the cold brutality of industrial warfare. But by refusing to heed the truth that Manning laid before us, by ignoring the crimes committed daily in our name, we not only continue to swell the ranks of our enemies but put the lives of our citizens in greater and greater danger. Manning did not endanger us. He sought to thwart the peril that is daily exacerbated by our political and military elite.

Manning showed us through the documents he released that Iraqis have endured hundreds of rapes and murders, along with systematic torture by the military and police of the puppet government we installed. He let us know that none of these atrocities were investigated. He provided the data that showed us that between 2004 and 2009 there were at least 109,032 “violent deaths” in Iraq, including those of 66,081 civilians, and that coalition troops were responsible for at least 195 civilian deaths in unreported events. He allowed us to see in the video “Collateral Murder” the helicopter attack on unarmed civilians in Baghdad. It was because of Manning that we could listen to the callous banter between pilots as the Americans nonchalantly fired on civilian rescuers. Manning let us see a U.S. Army tank crush one of the wounded lying on the street after the helicopter attack. The actions of the U.S. military in this one video alone, as law professor Marjorie Cohn has pointed out, violate Article 85 of the First Protocol to the Geneva Conventions, which prohibits the targeting of civilians, Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which requires that wounded be treated, and Article 17 of the First Protocol, which permits civilians to rescue and care for wounded without being harmed. We know of this war crime and many others because of Manning. And the decision to punish the soldier who reported these war crimes rather than the soldiers responsible for these crimes mocks our pretense of being a nation ruled by law.

Anyone who sees that "Collateral Murder" video and is not out-raged by it, may be a citizen of this country, but they are certainly not an American. Because this country does not mow down innocent civilians and joke about it as they are doing it. Unfortunately, this country isn't this country anymore.

Manning did a data dump without redacting names or classified information. What he did could have put many people in serious danger and/or very compromising positions.

What he should have done was taken his story to a reputable news organization and hired a lawyer.

There's a proper way to engage in whistle blowing that doesn't need to be injurious to the nation.

 

[Billo_Really]

Manning did a data dump without redacting names or classified information. What he did could have put many people in serious danger and/or very compromising positions.

What he should have done was taken his story to a reputable news organization and hired a lawyer.

There's a proper way to engage in whistle blowing that doesn't need to be injurious to the nation.

The government has already stated no one was put in danger.

He released information that we, as the citizens of this country, have a right to know about. We have a right to know what our government is doing in our name. Bradley Manning reported a war crime and that fuckin' judge won't let him submit the Nuremburg Principles as part of his defense.

If it wasn't for Manning, we'd still be in Iraq. The information he released, made it impossible for the Iraqi government to give US military personel immunity, which is why we left.

 

[Sallow]

Manning did a data dump without redacting names or classified information. What he did could have put many people in serious danger and/or very compromising positions.

What he should have done was taken his story to a reputable news organization and hired a lawyer.

There's a proper way to engage in whistle blowing that doesn't need to be injurious to the nation.

The government has already stated no one was put in danger.

He released information that we, as the citizens of this country, have a right to know about. We have a right to know what our government is doing in our name. Bradley Manning reported a war crime and that fuckin' judge won't let him submit the Nuremburg Principles as part of his defense.

If it wasn't for Manning, we'd still be in Iraq. The information he released, made it impossible for the Iraqi government to give US military personel immunity, which is why we left.

Believe it or not..we live in a representative democracy..not a direct democracy.

The differences between the two are vast.

And those representatives, granted powers by the constitution, enact policies and laws that we, as citizens, as part of the social compact, are obliged to follow. It's not perfect but it's gotten us this far.

And I haven't seen many alternatives that are all that attractive.

I agree with the spirit of what Manning was trying to do.

That posted..his methods were really awful.

 

[dblack]

Manning did a data dump without redacting names or classified information. What he did could have put many people in serious danger and/or very compromising positions.

What he should have done was taken his story to a reputable news organization and hired a lawyer.

There's a proper way to engage in whistle blowing that doesn't need to be injurious to the nation.

The government has already stated no one was put in danger.

He released information that we, as the citizens of this country, have a right to know about. We have a right to know what our government is doing in our name. Bradley Manning reported a war crime and that fuckin' judge won't let him submit the Nuremburg Principles as part of his defense.

If it wasn't for Manning, we'd still be in Iraq. The information he released, made it impossible for the Iraqi government to give US military personel immunity, which is why we left.

Believe it or not..we live in a representative democracy..not a direct democracy.

The differences between the two are vast.

And those representatives, granted powers by the constitution, enact policies and laws that we, as citizens, as part of the social compact, are obliged to follow. It's not perfect but it's gotten us this far.

LOL... wow. Watching you guys quote Republicans is just hilarious. Are you a fan of Gitmo now too?

 

[SFC Ollie]

First off Manning is guilty as hell........

Yeah, of reporting a war crime.

He should be a witness in a congressional investigation, not a defendant in a court sanctioned lynching.

Wrong answer.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Sallow is telling the truth as far as he can. Manning released many many documents which could have and possibly did harm troops. As far as the war crime, i don't think so, but that's another topic......

 

[Oddball]

The government has already stated no one was put in danger.

He released information that we, as the citizens of this country, have a right to know about. We have a right to know what our government is doing in our name. Bradley Manning reported a war crime and that fuckin' judge won't let him submit the Nuremburg Principles as part of his defense.

If it wasn't for Manning, we'd still be in Iraq. The information he released, made it impossible for the Iraqi government to give US military personel immunity, which is why we left.

Believe it or not..we live in a representative democracy..not a direct democracy.

The differences between the two are vast.

And those representatives, granted powers by the constitution, enact policies and laws that we, as citizens, as part of the social compact, are obliged to follow. It's not perfect but it's gotten us this far.

LOL... wow. Watching you guys quote Republicans is just hilarious. Are you a fan of Gitmo now too?

You misspelled "neocons".

 

[Billo_Really]

Believe it or not..we live in a representative democracy..not a direct democracy.

The differences between the two are vast.

And those representatives, granted powers by the constitution, enact policies and laws that we, as citizens, as part of the social compact, are obliged to follow. It's not perfect but it's gotten us this far.

And I haven't seen many alternatives that are all that attractive.

I agree with the spirit of what Manning was trying to do.

That posted..his methods were really awful.

We live under a corporate oligarchy and no longer have representation in government.

That's why 70% of American's are against these wars, but we're still fighting them.

That's why the "occupy movement" were treated as terrorists.

That's why whistleblowers are treated as criminals, instead of the people committing the crimes they're whislteblowing on.

That's why it doesn't matter which side is in office, it's always business as usual in Washington DC.

That's why Citizen United happened.

That's why we spent over $3 trillion dollars in Iraq and got nothing in return for that investment. $3 trillion US tax payer dollars and we didn't get shit out of the deal!

 

[Billo_Really]

Sallow is telling the truth as far as he can. Manning released many many documents which could have and possibly did harm troops. As far as the war crime, i don't think so, but that's another topic......

Did you see the Collateral Murder video?

11 people standing around outside a home were gunned down by an Apache .50 cal. You can hear the pilots joking about it as they blew these people to bits. You cannot target innocent civilians and the video clearly shows they were not making any hostile gestures. The video also shows them shooting up a van that came to assist the wounded. There is absolutely no law on earth (domestic or international), that allows you to shoot people providing medical assistance to the wounded. That's a war crime!

If our troops are doing this shit, then they themselves are the ones doing harm.

 

[Billo_Really]

Wrong answer.

So reporting a crime is against the law?

What is this? The Weimar Republic?

 

[Synthaholic]

Believe it or not..we live in a representative democracy..not a direct democracy.

The differences between the two are vast.

And those representatives, granted powers by the constitution, enact policies and laws that we, as citizens, as part of the social compact, are obliged to follow. It's not perfect but it's gotten us this far.

LOL... wow. Watching you guys quote Republicans is just hilarious. Are you a fan of Gitmo now too?

You misspelled "neocons".

NeoCons were/are the biggest segment of the Republican Party.

Therefore, NeoCons ARE the Republican Party. You may think the teabaggers are, but they do not have the power, ie committee chairs, election machine, etc.


Off topic: Why does the 'View First Unread' frequently take me way past my actual first unread post? This time it took me to yours, but there are probably 20 before yours that weren't there last time I was in this thread. Since you were a mod, you may know the answer. I use Firefox. Thanks.

 

[Synthaholic]

Believe it or not..we live in a representative democracy..not a direct democracy.

The differences between the two are vast.

And those representatives, granted powers by the constitution, enact policies and laws that we, as citizens, as part of the social compact, are obliged to follow. It's not perfect but it's gotten us this far.

And I haven't seen many alternatives that are all that attractive.

I agree with the spirit of what Manning was trying to do.

That posted..his methods were really awful.

We live under a corporate oligarchy and no longer have representation in government.

That's why 70% of American's are against these wars, but we're still fighting them.

That's why the "occupy movement" were treated as terrorists.

That's why whistleblowers are treated as criminals, instead of the people committing the crimes they're whislteblowing on.

That's why it doesn't matter which side is in office, it's always business as usual in Washington DC.

That's why Citizen United happened.

That's why we spent over $3 trillion dollars in Iraq and got nothing in return for that investment. $3 trillion US tax payer dollars and we didn't get shit out of the deal!

But...but...Bush said that we spread democracy!!! We liberated a people!!!

 

[Trajan]

First off Manning is guilty as hell........

Yeah, of reporting a war crime.

He should be a witness in a congressional investigation, not a defendant in a court sanctioned lynching.

he released a great deal more than what you classify as a war crime.....diplomatic cable traffic etc.

 

[Trajan]

Believe it or not..we live in a representative democracy..not a direct democracy.

The differences between the two are vast.

And those representatives, granted powers by the constitution, enact policies and laws that we, as citizens, as part of the social compact, are obliged to follow. It's not perfect but it's gotten us this far.

And I haven't seen many alternatives that are all that attractive.

I agree with the spirit of what Manning was trying to do.

That posted..his methods were really awful.

We live under a corporate oligarchy and no longer have representation in government.

That's why 70% of American's are against these wars, but we're still fighting them.

That's why the "occupy movement" were treated as terrorists.

That's why whistleblowers are treated as criminals, instead of the people committing the crimes they're whislteblowing on.

That's why it doesn't matter which side is in office, it's always business as usual in Washington DC.

That's why Citizen United happened.

That's why we spent over $3 trillion dollars in Iraq and got nothing in return for that investment. $3 trillion US tax payer dollars and we didn't get shit out of the deal!

we heard same under bush......so I guess ya'll get a 2 fer...

 

[SFC Ollie]

Sallow is telling the truth as far as he can. Manning released many many documents which could have and possibly did harm troops. As far as the war crime, i don't think so, but that's another topic......

Did you see the Collateral Murder video?

11 people standing around outside a home were gunned down by an Apache .50 cal. You can hear the pilots joking about it as they blew these people to bits. You cannot target innocent civilians and the video clearly shows they were not making any hostile gestures. The video also shows them shooting up a van that came to assist the wounded. There is absolutely no law on earth (domestic or international), that allows you to shoot people providing medical assistance to the wounded. That's a war crime!

If our troops are doing this shit, then they themselves are the ones doing harm.

What I saw was people less than 4 blocks and 15 minutes from a place where our troops had taken small arms and rocket fire. What I saw was several people carrying weapons. What I saw was a justified attack on a justified target. Maybe you should learn to trust your military just a little. Yes there was collateral damage, but maybe that photographer knew the danger he was in walking with those guys......And the van was their bad luck. Why anyone would stop like that I'll never know....especially with kids in the van....

But then again that's not what this thread is about.

 

[Ravi]

LOL... wow. Watching you guys quote Republicans is just hilarious. Are you a fan of Gitmo now too?

You misspelled "neocons".

NeoCons were/are the biggest segment of the Republican Party.

Therefore, NeoCons ARE the Republican Party. You may think the teabaggers are, but they do not have the power, ie committee chairs, election machine, etc.


Off topic: Why does the 'View First Unread' frequently take me way past my actual first unread post? This time it took me to yours, but there are probably 20 before yours that weren't there last time I was in this thread. Since you were a mod, you may know the answer. I use Firefox. Thanks.

To your off topic, it's probably because you aren't logging off when you go away from your computer. The software, though capable of doing otherwise, doesn't log you off until an hour after your last activity here. And then it counts everything within that hour as something you've actually read.

 

[Lakhota]

Edward Snowden As A Teen Online

 

[alan1]

The Patriot Act was dead wrong.

That doesn't give people who swore oaths to keep secrets license to break that oath and the law.

Why not?

Seriously?

We are a nation of laws..and even if those laws are wrong, they must be followed.

There are plenty of avenues to get laws changed.

But if no one follows the laws..we will wind up with something worse than bad laws.

We will wind up with anarchy.

Isn't one of the avenues called "Civil Disobedience"?
How did that work out for segregation and Jim Crow laws? Anarchy or positive changes? <---Rhetorical questions.