CDZ Should the state be able to force parents to change the sex of their children? This parent had to flee to save his son.

[2aguy]

I heard about this story on the Andrew Klavan show....Abigail Shrier wrote a book about the Transgender push that is essentially child abuse by the medical and psychiatric profession. This is a story she covered in an article for City Journal.....

Here is the story...

Ahmed is a Pakistani immigrant, a faithful Muslim, and until recently, a financial consultant to Seattle’s high-tech sector. But when he reached me by phone in October 2020, he was just one more frightened father. Days earlier, he and his wife had checked their 16-year-old son into Seattle Children’s Hospital for credible threats of suicide. Now, Ahmed was worried that the white coats who had gently admitted his son to their care would refuse to return him.

“They sent an email to us, you know, ‘you should take your ‘daughter’ to the gender clinic,’” he told me.

At first, Ahmed (I have changed names in this essay to protect the identities of minor children) assumed there had been a mistake. He had dropped off a son, Syed, to the hospital, in a terrible state of distress. Now, the email he received from the mental health experts used a new name for that son and claimed he was Ahmed’s daughter. “They were trying to create a customer for their gender clinic . . . and they seemed to absolutely want to push us in that direction,” he said when I spoke to him again this May, recalling the horror of last October. “We had calls with counselors and therapists in the establishment, telling us how important it is for him to change his gender, because that’s the only way he’s going to be better out of this suicidal depressive state.”
---------
The age at which minors in the State of Washington can receive mental health and gender-affirming care without parental permission is 13. In other words, the emails Ahmed received from the hospital were effectively a courtesy; the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.

But unlike some other parents I would later speak with, Ahmed’s cool head prevailed. Believing he might be walking into a trap, Ahmed reached out to both a lawyer and a psychiatrist friend he trusted. The psychiatrist gave him advice that he believes saved his son, saying, in Ahmed’s words:

“You have to be very, very careful, because if you come across as just even a little bit anti-trans or anything, they’re going to call the Child Protective Services on you and take custody of your kid.” The lawyer told Ahmed the same: “What you want to do is agree with them and take your kid home. When the gender counselors advise you to ‘affirm,’ go along with it. Just say ‘Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, let’s take him home, and we’ll go to the gender clinic.’”

Ahmed assured Seattle Children’s Hospital that he would take his son to a gender clinic and commence his son’s transition. Instead, he collected his son, quit his job, and moved his family of four out of Washington.

Amazon product

Should the state be able to take your children and then allow them to change their physical form.....without your consent...........by force?

 

[JoeMoma]

Wow!

 

[JoeMoma]

Answer to OP question: Hell No!

The child can decide otherwise when he/she/it becomes an adult.

 

[Votto]

Answer to OP question: Hell No!

The child can decide otherwise when he/she/it becomes an adult.

Sounds like you are Islamo-phobic.

Tsk, tsk.

 

[danielpalos]

I heard about this story on the Andrew Klavan show....Abigail Shrier wrote a book about the Transgender push that is essentially child abuse by the medical and psychiatric profession. This is a story she covered in an article for City Journal.....

Here is the story...

Ahmed is a Pakistani immigrant, a faithful Muslim, and until recently, a financial consultant to Seattle’s high-tech sector. But when he reached me by phone in October 2020, he was just one more frightened father. Days earlier, he and his wife had checked their 16-year-old son into Seattle Children’s Hospital for credible threats of suicide. Now, Ahmed was worried that the white coats who had gently admitted his son to their care would refuse to return him.

“They sent an email to us, you know, ‘you should take your ‘daughter’ to the gender clinic,’” he told me.

At first, Ahmed (I have changed names in this essay to protect the identities of minor children) assumed there had been a mistake. He had dropped off a son, Syed, to the hospital, in a terrible state of distress. Now, the email he received from the mental health experts used a new name for that son and claimed he was Ahmed’s daughter. “They were trying to create a customer for their gender clinic . . . and they seemed to absolutely want to push us in that direction,” he said when I spoke to him again this May, recalling the horror of last October. “We had calls with counselors and therapists in the establishment, telling us how important it is for him to change his gender, because that’s the only way he’s going to be better out of this suicidal depressive state.”
---------
The age at which minors in the State of Washington can receive mental health and gender-affirming care without parental permission is 13. In other words, the emails Ahmed received from the hospital were effectively a courtesy; the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.

But unlike some other parents I would later speak with, Ahmed’s cool head prevailed. Believing he might be walking into a trap, Ahmed reached out to both a lawyer and a psychiatrist friend he trusted. The psychiatrist gave him advice that he believes saved his son, saying, in Ahmed’s words:

“You have to be very, very careful, because if you come across as just even a little bit anti-trans or anything, they’re going to call the Child Protective Services on you and take custody of your kid.” The lawyer told Ahmed the same: “What you want to do is agree with them and take your kid home. When the gender counselors advise you to ‘affirm,’ go along with it. Just say ‘Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, let’s take him home, and we’ll go to the gender clinic.’”

Ahmed assured Seattle Children’s Hospital that he would take his son to a gender clinic and commence his son’s transition. Instead, he collected his son, quit his job, and moved his family of four out of Washington.

Amazon product

Should the state be able to take your children and then allow them to change their physical form.....without your consent...........by force?

No.

 

[Coyote]

Wow!

Ahmed is 16.

In most states, that means he can marry.

If he can marry then why the hell can't he make his own determinations about his sexual identity?

 

[JoeMoma]

Wow!

Ahmed is 16.

In most states, that means he can marry.

If he can marry then why the hell can't he make his own determinations about his sexual identity?

16 is too young to marry, unless it involves a dowry including goats.

 

[Coyote]

Wow!

Ahmed is 16.

In most states, that means he can marry.

If he can marry then why the hell can't he make his own determinations about his sexual identity?

16 is too young to marry, unless it involves a dowry including goats.

It is but it's legal and does not involve either a dowry or goats in this country.

16 is not quite a child, not quite an adult. It's old enough that the law recognizes their right to choice in medical treatment for example. It is old enough to have a say in their gender identity.

 

[progressive hunter]

Powerful testimonial from young lady who detransitioned after Covid isolation, believes she had SOCIAL, not GENDER dysphoria

When parents or fellow teenagers of young people who suddenly question their own gender or say they are trans tell people that the youth in question is facing peer pressure and being led to believe…

therightscoop.com

 

[Colin norris]

I heard about this story on the Andrew Klavan show....Abigail Shrier wrote a book about the Transgender push that is essentially child abuse by the medical and psychiatric profession. This is a story she covered in an article for City Journal.....

Here is the story...

Ahmed is a Pakistani immigrant, a faithful Muslim, and until recently, a financial consultant to Seattle’s high-tech sector. But when he reached me by phone in October 2020, he was just one more frightened father. Days earlier, he and his wife had checked their 16-year-old son into Seattle Children’s Hospital for credible threats of suicide. Now, Ahmed was worried that the white coats who had gently admitted his son to their care would refuse to return him.

“They sent an email to us, you know, ‘you should take your ‘daughter’ to the gender clinic,’” he told me.

At first, Ahmed (I have changed names in this essay to protect the identities of minor children) assumed there had been a mistake. He had dropped off a son, Syed, to the hospital, in a terrible state of distress. Now, the email he received from the mental health experts used a new name for that son and claimed he was Ahmed’s daughter. “They were trying to create a customer for their gender clinic . . . and they seemed to absolutely want to push us in that direction,” he said when I spoke to him again this May, recalling the horror of last October. “We had calls with counselors and therapists in the establishment, telling us how important it is for him to change his gender, because that’s the only way he’s going to be better out of this suicidal depressive state.”
---------
The age at which minors in the State of Washington can receive mental health and gender-affirming care without parental permission is 13. In other words, the emails Ahmed received from the hospital were effectively a courtesy; the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.

But unlike some other parents I would later speak with, Ahmed’s cool head prevailed. Believing he might be walking into a trap, Ahmed reached out to both a lawyer and a psychiatrist friend he trusted. The psychiatrist gave him advice that he believes saved his son, saying, in Ahmed’s words:

“You have to be very, very careful, because if you come across as just even a little bit anti-trans or anything, they’re going to call the Child Protective Services on you and take custody of your kid.” The lawyer told Ahmed the same: “What you want to do is agree with them and take your kid home. When the gender counselors advise you to ‘affirm,’ go along with it. Just say ‘Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, let’s take him home, and we’ll go to the gender clinic.’”

Ahmed assured Seattle Children’s Hospital that he would take his son to a gender clinic and commence his son’s transition. Instead, he collected his son, quit his job, and moved his family of four out of Washington.

Amazon product

Should the state be able to take your children and then allow them to change their physical form.....without your consent...........by force?

Absolute rubbish. You'll believe anything.

 

[JoeMoma]

Wow!

Ahmed is 16.

In most states, that means he can marry.

If he can marry then why the hell can't he make his own determinations about his sexual identity?

16 is too young to marry, unless it involves a dowry including goats.

It is but it's legal and does not involve either a dowry or goats in this country.

16 is not quite a child, not quite an adult. It's old enough that the law recognizes their right to choice in medical treatment for example. It is old enough to have a say in their gender identity.

In my state, parental consent is required for marriage of a 16 year old.

 

[Turtlesoup]

2aguy NO ONE should be changing their sex before 18 to begin with.....

 

[Pellinore]

There seems to be an assumption in the thread title that transitioning means getting surgery. It does not.

Personally, I think the teenage years are the best time of your life to try new things; some of those things become lifelong pursuits, others become embarrassing sections of the photo album. If this kid is in anguish every day and the mental health professionals think this will help, what's the harm? It's not permanent, and in two or four or ten years, they can choose a different path if they want.

... as long as they don't follow through with the suicide. Taking the story at face value, I shudder to think what has happened to the child's mental health now that the father has yanked them away from treatment and fled the state. It would be nice if this conservative news site would follow up on that, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[justinacolmena]

the state be able to take your children and then allow them to change their physical form.....without your consent...........by force?

Should parents be allowed to change the sex or gender of their children against their will?

This is not, realistically, a decision parents can make on behalf of their children.

If the children had been allowed to develop naturally in the womb, without unnecessary procedures of amniocentesis and injectionss of bovine testosterone in utero to alter their sex, chances are they would be perfectly content with their gender as naturally determined at the time of conception by their Creator, not altered on the whims of "parents" and "doctors" at the Planned Parenthood clinic.

 

[ClaireH]

I heard about this story on the Andrew Klavan show....Abigail Shrier wrote a book about the Transgender push that is essentially child abuse by the medical and psychiatric profession. This is a story she covered in an article for City Journal.....

Here is the story...

Ahmed is a Pakistani immigrant, a faithful Muslim, and until recently, a financial consultant to Seattle’s high-tech sector. But when he reached me by phone in October 2020, he was just one more frightened father. Days earlier, he and his wife had checked their 16-year-old son into Seattle Children’s Hospital for credible threats of suicide. Now, Ahmed was worried that the white coats who had gently admitted his son to their care would refuse to return him.

“They sent an email to us, you know, ‘you should take your ‘daughter’ to the gender clinic,’” he told me.

At first, Ahmed (I have changed names in this essay to protect the identities of minor children) assumed there had been a mistake. He had dropped off a son, Syed, to the hospital, in a terrible state of distress. Now, the email he received from the mental health experts used a new name for that son and claimed he was Ahmed’s daughter. “They were trying to create a customer for their gender clinic . . . and they seemed to absolutely want to push us in that direction,” he said when I spoke to him again this May, recalling the horror of last October. “We had calls with counselors and therapists in the establishment, telling us how important it is for him to change his gender, because that’s the only way he’s going to be better out of this suicidal depressive state.”
---------
The age at which minors in the State of Washington can receive mental health and gender-affirming care without parental permission is 13. In other words, the emails Ahmed received from the hospital were effectively a courtesy; the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.

But unlike some other parents I would later speak with, Ahmed’s cool head prevailed. Believing he might be walking into a trap, Ahmed reached out to both a lawyer and a psychiatrist friend he trusted. The psychiatrist gave him advice that he believes saved his son, saying, in Ahmed’s words:

“You have to be very, very careful, because if you come across as just even a little bit anti-trans or anything, they’re going to call the Child Protective Services on you and take custody of your kid.” The lawyer told Ahmed the same: “What you want to do is agree with them and take your kid home. When the gender counselors advise you to ‘affirm,’ go along with it. Just say ‘Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, let’s take him home, and we’ll go to the gender clinic.’”

Ahmed assured Seattle Children’s Hospital that he would take his son to a gender clinic and commence his son’s transition. Instead, he collected his son, quit his job, and moved his family of four out of Washington.

Amazon product

Should the state be able to take your children and then allow them to change their physical form.....without your consent...........by force?

In the OP: “the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.” Gender transition can either involve an operation or not, but because they used the word medical that implies the actual gender surgery.

Considering the fact that our frontal lobes do not connect with the base of the brain stem until around or after age 23, using that anatomical information alone should help society figure out where we should “draw the legal lines” with respect to ages and changing one’s gender by an operation.

Many generations ago out of necessity, large families in the states had young girls marry. In some states, over 14 was an accepted age for the female to wed, over 16 more the norm in other states, while 17-19 was average age to marry. Unmarried females, found to “still” be living with their parents who were 19 in KY in 1850, were listed as “spinsters. Lol I kid not- as I read it on a US census while conducting family tree research. Farm families had at least 8 kids- A few dying during childbirth or a few years after, often babies given the same name that the baby who died was given, most having 8 plus babies survive to mostly man their farms. Lack of birth control played a factor with families having so many children, often where the woman would die after birthing so many and the widower would often marry a widowed sister-in-law and they’d have five more children together.

Our society is way past the “need” for large families. It’s more of a choice to have say, more than three kids, either due to a religious conviction that there should be no birth control whatsoever, or just a couple who wants a large family.

Medically speaking, future generations might use that info (and unknown info to come) about brainstem connection in determining legal age limits, but it’ll be unlikely any crowd backs setting higher, age requirements, for example drinking alcohol, since they’ve already been established. Regarding genetic surgery, that seems to be a decision that should be made after 23, but I’m only going by the brain stem thing here. There are always unique factors to consider as we’re all uniquely programmed, but as a parent I would strongly encourage any person under 21 to wait to make that decision until they have full capability for logic.

 

[justinacolmena]

Our society is way past the “need” for large families

So you have the PP agenda of population control and forced sterilization of mentally ill persons.

 

[Pellinore]

I heard about this story on the Andrew Klavan show....Abigail Shrier wrote a book about the Transgender push that is essentially child abuse by the medical and psychiatric profession. This is a story she covered in an article for City Journal.....

Here is the story...

Ahmed is a Pakistani immigrant, a faithful Muslim, and until recently, a financial consultant to Seattle’s high-tech sector. But when he reached me by phone in October 2020, he was just one more frightened father. Days earlier, he and his wife had checked their 16-year-old son into Seattle Children’s Hospital for credible threats of suicide. Now, Ahmed was worried that the white coats who had gently admitted his son to their care would refuse to return him.

“They sent an email to us, you know, ‘you should take your ‘daughter’ to the gender clinic,’” he told me.

At first, Ahmed (I have changed names in this essay to protect the identities of minor children) assumed there had been a mistake. He had dropped off a son, Syed, to the hospital, in a terrible state of distress. Now, the email he received from the mental health experts used a new name for that son and claimed he was Ahmed’s daughter. “They were trying to create a customer for their gender clinic . . . and they seemed to absolutely want to push us in that direction,” he said when I spoke to him again this May, recalling the horror of last October. “We had calls with counselors and therapists in the establishment, telling us how important it is for him to change his gender, because that’s the only way he’s going to be better out of this suicidal depressive state.”
---------
The age at which minors in the State of Washington can receive mental health and gender-affirming care without parental permission is 13. In other words, the emails Ahmed received from the hospital were effectively a courtesy; the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.

But unlike some other parents I would later speak with, Ahmed’s cool head prevailed. Believing he might be walking into a trap, Ahmed reached out to both a lawyer and a psychiatrist friend he trusted. The psychiatrist gave him advice that he believes saved his son, saying, in Ahmed’s words:

“You have to be very, very careful, because if you come across as just even a little bit anti-trans or anything, they’re going to call the Child Protective Services on you and take custody of your kid.” The lawyer told Ahmed the same: “What you want to do is agree with them and take your kid home. When the gender counselors advise you to ‘affirm,’ go along with it. Just say ‘Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, let’s take him home, and we’ll go to the gender clinic.’”

Ahmed assured Seattle Children’s Hospital that he would take his son to a gender clinic and commence his son’s transition. Instead, he collected his son, quit his job, and moved his family of four out of Washington.

Amazon product

Should the state be able to take your children and then allow them to change their physical form.....without your consent...........by force?

In the OP: “the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.” Gender transition can either involve an operation or not, but because they used the word medical that implies the actual gender surgery.

The key word there being "implied." It says they do not need the parent's permission "to begin his son on a path to medical transition," not to undergo it.

Counseling and support are steps on the path, but without the parental OK, surgery wouldn't happen until after kid turned 18, at least. I don't see anyone here trying to force that against the will of the parents.

 

[justinacolmena]

The key word there being "implied." It says they do not need the parent's permission "to begin his son on a path to medical transition," not to undergo it.

A the Planned Parenthood clinic they give parents a "choice" early in pregnancy whether to raise their child "as" a boy or girl — so with the "appropriate" treatment of anabolic steroids administered in utero via amniocentesis they can raise a girl, conceived with the XX chromosome pair, "as" a boy, force her to grow male genitalia, shrivel her ovaries, cause her to develop testicles, and "assign" a male biological sex to her at birth.

It can be done of course but it is more difficult and less desirable and pleasing for the ladies and gentlemen of the district to force a male fetus to grow up "as" female.

Remember it is especially women's sports we are talking about, even as Samson's hair was cut, and he was blinded and put in prison for the sport of women, and Samson at his death killed more Philistines than he did while alive, and judged Israel twenty years.

 

[Pellinore]

The key word there being "implied." It says they do not need the parent's permission "to begin his son on a path to medical transition," not to undergo it.

A the Planned Parenthood clinic they give parents a "choice" early in pregnancy whether to raise their child "as" a boy or girl — so with the "appropriate" treatment of anabolic steroids administered in utero via amniocentesis they can raise a girl, conceived with the XX chromosome pair, "as" a boy, force her to grow male genitalia, shrivel her ovaries, cause her to develop testicles, and "assign" a male biological sex to her at birth.

It can be done of course but it is more difficult and less desirable and pleasing for the ladies and gentlemen of the district to force a male fetus to grow up "as" female.

Remember it is especially women's sports we are talking about, even as Samson's hair was cut, and he was blinded and put in prison for the sport of women, and Samson at his death killed more Philistines than he did while alive, and judged Israel twenty years.

I was responding to the OP, not the side conversation that's going on about in utero treatments and such.

 

[ClaireH]

I heard about this story on the Andrew Klavan show....Abigail Shrier wrote a book about the Transgender push that is essentially child abuse by the medical and psychiatric profession. This is a story she covered in an article for City Journal.....

Here is the story...

Ahmed is a Pakistani immigrant, a faithful Muslim, and until recently, a financial consultant to Seattle’s high-tech sector. But when he reached me by phone in October 2020, he was just one more frightened father. Days earlier, he and his wife had checked their 16-year-old son into Seattle Children’s Hospital for credible threats of suicide. Now, Ahmed was worried that the white coats who had gently admitted his son to their care would refuse to return him.

“They sent an email to us, you know, ‘you should take your ‘daughter’ to the gender clinic,’” he told me.

At first, Ahmed (I have changed names in this essay to protect the identities of minor children) assumed there had been a mistake. He had dropped off a son, Syed, to the hospital, in a terrible state of distress. Now, the email he received from the mental health experts used a new name for that son and claimed he was Ahmed’s daughter. “They were trying to create a customer for their gender clinic . . . and they seemed to absolutely want to push us in that direction,” he said when I spoke to him again this May, recalling the horror of last October. “We had calls with counselors and therapists in the establishment, telling us how important it is for him to change his gender, because that’s the only way he’s going to be better out of this suicidal depressive state.”
---------
The age at which minors in the State of Washington can receive mental health and gender-affirming care without parental permission is 13. In other words, the emails Ahmed received from the hospital were effectively a courtesy; the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.

But unlike some other parents I would later speak with, Ahmed’s cool head prevailed. Believing he might be walking into a trap, Ahmed reached out to both a lawyer and a psychiatrist friend he trusted. The psychiatrist gave him advice that he believes saved his son, saying, in Ahmed’s words:

“You have to be very, very careful, because if you come across as just even a little bit anti-trans or anything, they’re going to call the Child Protective Services on you and take custody of your kid.” The lawyer told Ahmed the same: “What you want to do is agree with them and take your kid home. When the gender counselors advise you to ‘affirm,’ go along with it. Just say ‘Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, let’s take him home, and we’ll go to the gender clinic.’”

Ahmed assured Seattle Children’s Hospital that he would take his son to a gender clinic and commence his son’s transition. Instead, he collected his son, quit his job, and moved his family of four out of Washington.

Amazon product

Should the state be able to take your children and then allow them to change their physical form.....without your consent...........by force?

In the OP: “the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.” Gender transition can either involve an operation or not, but because they used the word medical that implies the actual gender surgery.

The key word there being "implied." It says they do not need the parent's permission "to begin his son on a path to medical transition," not to undergo it.

Counseling and support are steps on the path, but without the parental OK, surgery wouldn't happen until after kid turned 18, at least. I don't see anyone here trying to force that against the will of the parents.

Your distinction about “path to medical transition” is appreciated in the name of specificity. A path to medical alteration could involve exactly what you’ve stated- counseling, but could also mean taking additional steps medically by initiating hormonal changes. I would hope most professional facilities would hold off on offering any form of physical changes induced medically until a person can sign a legal document about it. I haven’t checked it out enough to know what’s happening in the states and the laws about this issue, but I’d prefer keeping it about states rights and let voters decide, and forget the federal control element all together.