Should America Bid Farewell to Exceptional Freedom?

[jillian]

Congressman Paul Ryan delivered this speech to the Oklahoma Council of Public Affairs in Oklahoma City on March 31, 2010. It's pretty long but an excellent read.

RealClearPolitics - Should America Bid Farewell to Exceptional Freedom?

No offense, Zoom, but he doesn't even make sense. It's partisan blather.

exceptional freedom, my butt...

like making sure people get health insurance somehow affects your 'freedom'.

meshugganah.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

As for your third iteration, if you don't like your representation, there's that thing called a voting booth. You are still free to VOTE

Exactly....as the Democrats will find out in November....much to their detriment.

 

[MaggieMae]

I wish Ron Paul would run under the Tea Party banner in 2012. This period of having our cake and eating it too, where Democrats want to embellish us with entitlements while the Republicans are out to see that we don’t pay for them, just isn’t sustainable.

I would like to see Paul Ryan run as a republican, he could possibly bring the republicxans back to where they need to be.



I mean, you got a mainstream white American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. Wait, didn't somebody else use something like this? If so my apologies.

He is a Republican.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Congressman Paul Ryan delivered this speech to the Oklahoma Council of Public Affairs in Oklahoma City on March 31, 2010. It's pretty long but an excellent read.

RealClearPolitics - Should America Bid Farewell to Exceptional Freedom?

No offense, Zoom, but he doesn't even make sense. It's partisan blather.

exceptional freedom, my butt...

like making sure people get health insurance somehow affects your 'freedom'.

meshugganah.

you cannot make it mandatory to purchase healthcare...this provision of the law will be struck down by the SCOTUS.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Either the Republicans come up with something concrete and acceptable as a platform this fall (which they have not done ~ yelling does not count), or the Democrats are going to Repeal the Republican Party and replace their members with their own.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Congressman Paul Ryan delivered this speech to the Oklahoma Council of Public Affairs in Oklahoma City on March 31, 2010. It's pretty long but an excellent read.

RealClearPolitics - Should America Bid Farewell to Exceptional Freedom?

No offense, Zoom, but he doesn't even make sense. It's partisan blather.

exceptional freedom, my butt...

like making sure people get health insurance somehow affects your 'freedom'.

meshugganah.

you cannot make it mandatory to purchase healthcare...this provision of the law will be struck down by the SCOTUS.

You don't have the law on your side, PP, for that to happen. However, should it, then the Democratic congress will pass a two-tier option.

 

[MaggieMae]

The freedom to choose whether we want health care or not for one.

The freedom to produce our own energy another.

The freedom to be represented by our representatives.

You mean the freedom not to PAY for health care? If you're in a car accident, are you going to tell the paramedics not to treat your injuries and will you send the ambulance away?

What energy are you restricted from producing?

You ARE represented, what you mean is you want your right wing authoritarians back. WHY don't you believe in democracy?

because YOUR fucked up version of democracy equals totalitarianism or communism. You can shove that right up your metrosexual ass.

It's always such fun when trash-mouth PP jumps into the fray. He never actually SAYS anything of import, but as long as he can get a few profane zingers across, he feels he's done his job in helping the cause.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

The law is in fact on the side of the mandatory healthcare opponents.The law will remain in place...but the mandatory provision will more than likely be struck down. It's unconstitutional to mandate people to purchase a product from a private company or face fines. Don't bother with the car insurance argument...it's totally different.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

You mean the freedom not to PAY for health care? If you're in a car accident, are you going to tell the paramedics not to treat your injuries and will you send the ambulance away?

What energy are you restricted from producing?

You ARE represented, what you mean is you want your right wing authoritarians back. WHY don't you believe in democracy?

because YOUR fucked up version of democracy equals totalitarianism or communism. You can shove that right up your metrosexual ass.

It's always such fun when trash-mouth PP jumps into the fray. He never actually SAYS anything of import, but as long as he can get a few profane zingers across, he feels he's done his job in helping the cause.

Your foolish attempt to goad me into an argument with you has failed. Now get a life please and stop stalking me.

 

[Immanuel]

As for your third iteration, if you don't like your representation, there's that thing called a voting booth. You are still free to VOTE

Exactly....as the Democrats will find out in November....much to their detriment.

I wish I had "your guy's" meaning those who are so sure that the tide will turn on the Democratic Congress, optimism. I simply am not so sure that the tide is going to turn this year.

It would be nice if it did, because we need to have a Congress that will curtail the President's wishes. When the Republicans used to control the White House and Congress, Care4all used to say that we needed to put Democrats in charge of Congress to counter act Bush. I thought she was just being partisan. Since I don't think she's paying attention to this thread, I'll say it now... I am beginning to understand just exactly what she meant.

Immie

 

[JakeStarkey]

Case and statute law does not uphold the conservatives' wishes in this debate. They can say it all they want, but they are wrong. But, if they are right, we will end up with a two-tier option, similar to Australia's health care system.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Case and statute law does not uphold the conservatives' wishes in this debate. They can say it all they want, but they are wrong. But, if they are right, we will end up with a two-tier option, similar to Australia's health care system.

can you cite your examples.

 

[MaggieMae]

Exceptional FREEDOM?

The Bush-Cheney regime exhibited such extreme modes of governance in its embrace of an imperial presidency, its violation of domestic and international law, and its disdain for human rights and democratic values that it was hard to view such anti-democratic policies as part of a pervasive shift towards a hidden order of authoritarian politics, which historically has existed at the margins of American society. How else to label such a government other than shockingly and uniquely extremist, given its political legacy that included the rise of the security and torture state; the creation of legal illegalities in which civil liberties were trampled; the launching of an unjust war in Iraq legitimated through official lies; the passing of legislative policies that drained the federal surplus by giving away more than a trillion dollars in tax cuts to the rich; the enactment of a shameful policy of preemptive war; the endorsement of an inflated military budget at the expense of much-needed social programs; the selling off of as many government functions as possible to corporate interests; the resurrection of an imperial presidency; an incessant attack against unions; support for a muzzled and increasingly corporate-controlled media; government production of fake news reports to gain consent for regressive policies; use of an Orwellian vocabulary for disguising monstrous acts such as torture ("enhanced interrogation techniques"); furtherance of a racist campaign of legal harassment and incarceration of Arabs, Muslims and immigrants; advancement of a prison binge through a repressive policy of criminalization; establishment of an unregulated and ultimately devastating form of casino capitalism; the arrogant celebration and support for the interests and values of big business at the expense of citizens and the common good, and the dismantling of social services and social safety nets as part of a larger campaign of ushering in the corporate state and the reign of finance capital.

The fact that you think the vanishing of Exceptional Freedom in this country started with Bush (or Obama for some of the others) is a picturesque example of how it's been allowed to happen. The nibbling away at freedom in this country began long before the 21st century.

We've also grown in population from 4 million when the Constitution was signed to over 305 million. A slight consideration?

 

[MaggieMae]

The freedom to determine my own health. The freedom to build. The freedom to choose who to work for. The freedom over intrusive government. The freedom to determine my own destiny.

The lefties in this thread do not Grok freedom. They think it is the condition of avoiding all individual responsibility and being subservient to The State.

"Freedom's Just Another Word For Letting The State Choose."

Why do you keep using the word "grok"?? Do you think like a Neanderthal? They became extinct when the more intelligent Cro-magnans emerged.

 

[MaggieMae]

The lefties in this thread do not Grok freedom. They think it is the condition of avoiding all individual responsibility and being subservient to The State.

"Freedom's Just Another Word For Letting The State Choose."

Other than vague bullshit, you still have not identified a single freedom that has been lost.

Freedom to build?

Freedom to choose who to work for?


Are you guys really that lame?

That argument is not any different than the one used by real rightwingers when I used to say that the Patriot Act threatened our freedoms. Every time I would say that some kook would say, "what freedoms have you lost?". I'm sorry, maybe people don't understand, The Patriot Act threatened my freedom and so does HCR. It is a threat to freedom. It is a threat to my right to make a choice. I'm sure you have heard of the "freedom to choose" right? Isn't that the freedom that pro-choice people shout about all the time?

Well, I no longer have that right in regards to my health care. In four years I will have to choose a government puppet that promises to pay what the government says it can pay in regards to my health care. I won't be able to choose the plan that is best for me. I will have to take what the government is willing to give me. That is just one freedom that I lost two weeks ago when Obama flashed both his smile and his pen.

I won't be able to choose the most cost effective plan either, because all premiums will be regulated by the government which means Health Insurance companies won't be able to offer me a lower premium than the other guy. Where's my choice?

Immie

That is totally not true. If you want an insurer exclusive of any that participate in the exchange, you can do it. That point was stressed over and over and over again: If you like your own health care provider, you can keep it. The HCR provides for choices that people WHO DO NOT HAVE COVERAGE to pick policies offering lower premiums that they CAN afford.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Plain and simple....some people do not want healthcare because they want to spend their money on other stuff...

Now that freedom has been taken away from them. They will be forced to spend money on something they don't want if the provision remains in the law. This violates the Commerce clause in many constitutional lawyer's opinions. That's why it's going to the Supreme Court.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And that is why the Supreme Court will uphold the law. "I don't want to" is not law.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Wrong....that's not written into the law...what is, is a mandatory provision that violates the Commerce Clause. That's what they will decide on ...

 

[Bfgrn]

Plain and simple....some people do not want healthcare because they want to spend their money on other stuff...

Now that freedom has been taken away from them. They will be forced to spend money on something they don't want if the provision remains in the law. This violates the Commerce clause in many constitutional lawyer's opinions. That's why it's going to the Supreme Court.

There is NO free health care...NONE...

ALL you are refusing to do is be responsible for yourself. Instead, while you are buying your big screen TV and X-box, responsible citizens will be FORCED to pay for YOU...

YOU fit the welfare mentality to a T

 

[MaggieMae]

Health Insurance is not Health Care.

If one cannot afford private health insurance, is not qualified for Medicare or Medicaid, he or she cannot get health care except in free clinics or hospital ERs, which do not engage in health "care" beyond minor ailments. It's a no-brainer.

There is an abundance of research on the uninsured done over the years by Kaiser. While I don't expect anyone who has been adamantly opposed to the current bill to change their minds, I do think people need to understand why SOMETHING this drastic needs to happen. Now perhaps by 2014, the mandatory clause will be removed and replaced with something more acceptable. Only time will tell. In the meantime, it would be nice if people at least expressed some empathy toward those millions of Americans who have not enjoyed the same type of privilege and care that those in strong opposition have.

Analysis - health08.org