Should America Bid Farewell to Exceptional Freedom?

[MaggieMae]

You are focused too far down stream. Unless we narrow the scope of government and reduce the amount of MONEY it has at its disposal, there will be lobbyists, or the same function performed under a different label. When government has intrusive effects upon people's lives and businesses, they will seek a way to try to influence outcomes.

Getting rid of lobbying won't get rid of how much time incumbents spend on re-election.

If real campaign reform outlawed lobbying period, it's quite possible many congresspeople would chose not to run again anyway. And if the lobbyists weren't spending time and money wooing for or against some social/domestic issue that you would like to see removed, they most assuredly have other K Street talent available to woo for or against those programs you wouldn't dream of having removed. IT'S WHAT THEY DO!

you cant eliminate lobbying, maggie. it is an important part of democracy, even if it isnt popular.

Yes, that's what's unfortunate. The ol' freedom of speech. I'm not talking about small interest groups, I'm talking about the registered mega-lobbying firms who are in business for the sole purpose of making big money off legislation. A perfect example would be the insurance lobbists who lobbied first AGAINST the bill (the one that came out of the House), then when the bill was tweaked in the Senate basically handing insurance companies carte blanche permission to continue to do as they wanted, they began to lobby for the bill. Pick a side, and we'll be there is their motto.

Lobbyists Swarm Capitol To Influence Health Reform - The Center for Public Integrity

 

[boedicca]

Yes, that's what's unfortunate. The ol' freedom of speech. I'm not talking about small interest groups, I'm talking about the registered mega-lobbying firms who are in business for the sole purpose of making big money off legislation. A perfect example would be the insurance lobbists who lobbied first AGAINST the bill (the one that came out of the House), then when the bill was tweaked in the Senate basically handing insurance companies carte blanche permission to continue to do as they wanted, they began to lobby for the bill. Pick a side, and we'll be there is their motto.

Lobbyists Swarm Capitol To Influence Health Reform - The Center for Public Integrity

What the hell did you expect?

The Government is engaged in massive expansion which means more access to Other People's Money. Of course the lobbyists are going to swarm.

You want less lobbyists?

Cut the size of government and reduce spending and taxes.

 

[Charles Stucker]

This country has always been the beacon for dealing with major problems in a nonviolent way

You mean like John Brown's method for ending slavery. Small wonder Southern states wanted to secede when his brothers in philosophy took power, it was a matter of life and death.

Perhaps you meant Custer's way of dealing with Indian relations.

Or bill Clinton's method of distracting the media from Monica Lewinsky. Though I suppose in the grand scheme that was a minor problem dealt with by spurious violence.

 

[antagon]

you cant eliminate lobbying, maggie. it is an important part of democracy, even if it isnt popular.

Yes, that's what's unfortunate. The ol' freedom of speech. I'm not talking about small interest groups, I'm talking about the registered mega-lobbying firms who are in business for the sole purpose of making big money off legislation. A perfect example would be the insurance lobbists who lobbied first AGAINST the bill (the one that came out of the House), then when the bill was tweaked in the Senate basically handing insurance companies carte blanche permission to continue to do as they wanted, they began to lobby for the bill. Pick a side, and we'll be there is their motto.

Lobbyists Swarm Capitol To Influence Health Reform - The Center for Public Integrity

thats a great example of exactly how and why democracy is facilitated through lobbies, again, no matter how unpopular. the clintons and later pelozi's ideas about healthcare didnt catch any wind in their sails for lack of lobby support. these lobbies represent what is viable as a reform from the perspective of the folks who are going to have to adapt the most to it, and for a profit crucial to out economy and the provision of their service.

the result is a bill which i think is well thought out. while the clown gallery calls it marxist obamunism; the reality is that the resulting legislation indicates pragmatic consideration for the issues at hand in the favor of citizens and business, rather than pelozi's government direct-competition, or the republican's... bullshit.

 

[Charles Stucker]

the result is a bill which i think is well thought out.

Are they handing out thinking licenses with cracker Jack boxes nowadays? Because with all that thinking one would think your thoughts might be thoughtful.
Just saying what I'm thinking.

 

[antagon]

Yes, that's what's unfortunate. The ol' freedom of speech. I'm not talking about small interest groups, I'm talking about the registered mega-lobbying firms who are in business for the sole purpose of making big money off legislation. A perfect example would be the insurance lobbists who lobbied first AGAINST the bill (the one that came out of the House), then when the bill was tweaked in the Senate basically handing insurance companies carte blanche permission to continue to do as they wanted, they began to lobby for the bill. Pick a side, and we'll be there is their motto.

Lobbyists Swarm Capitol To Influence Health Reform - The Center for Public Integrity

What the hell did you expect?

The Government is engaged in massive expansion which means more access to Other People's Money. Of course the lobbyists are going to swarm.

You want less lobbyists?

Cut the size of government and reduce spending and taxes.

reducing government is an issue all to itself, bo. when people get a catchphrase, it supplies solutions to everything. ive got carbon dioxide in my left ear and the size of government in my right.

our government will always play a role in the way the economy works in businesses, and groups of businesses, so they'll always hire some happy-ending-hotshots to go talk to unc sam, no matter how well he's hung.

 

[antagon]

noted, stucker.

*considering the source*

 

[MaggieMae]

This country has always been the beacon for dealing with major problems in a nonviolent way

You mean like John Brown's method for ending slavery. Small wonder Southern states wanted to secede when his brothers in philosophy took power, it was a matter of life and death.

Perhaps you meant Custer's way of dealing with Indian relations.

Or bill Clinton's method of distracting the media from Monica Lewinsky. Though I suppose in the grand scheme that was a minor problem dealt with by spurious violence.

Well, I suppose if you want to go back that far in history, you win on specifics--except of course the snarky remark about Clinton/Lewinsky. I don't recall any acts of violence over the sex scandal, unless you found yourself in some inappropriate public places frequently whacking off over the details.

 

[MaggieMae]

the result is a bill which i think is well thought out.

Are they handing out thinking licenses with cracker Jack boxes nowadays? Because with all that thinking one would think your thoughts might be thoughtful.
Just saying what I'm thinking.

Antagon seems capable enough and will probably respond. But you might consider that some of us have grown tired of scrutinizing and arguing over every detail and since the bill has now been passed, and it's rather unproductive to once again go into details. But nevermind. I understand you're just trying to be clever. (Do they still sell Cracker Jacks?)

 

[Charles Stucker]

This country has always been the beacon for dealing with major problems in a nonviolent way

You mean like John Brown's method for ending slavery. Small wonder Southern states wanted to secede when his brothers in philosophy took power, it was a matter of life and death.

Perhaps you meant Custer's way of dealing with Indian relations.

Or bill Clinton's method of distracting the media from Monica Lewinsky. Though I suppose in the grand scheme that was a minor problem dealt with by spurious violence.

Well, I suppose if you want to go back that far in history, you win on specifics--except of course the snarky remark about Clinton/Lewinsky. I don't recall any acts of violence over the sex scandal, unless you found yourself in some inappropriate public places frequently whacking off over the details.

I was referring to the gratuitous bombing of Kosovo, Yemen and Afghanistan. You might look them up.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The hell they were "reasonable." Did they want answers or not? In many cases, no one could even hear over all the shouting, and anyone attending with a valid question AND WANTING AN ANSWER couldn't get it. Those attendees who disrupted town hall meetings acted like barbarians. Own up to it.

Yes they were reasonable, with a few exceptions. Their elected representatives did not address their concerns - and kept feeding them scripted talking points instead of answering questions. They did not act like barbarians, unless you view free speech as the hallmark of a barbarian.

Where was the rioting? Where were the pies (or worse) thrown at speakers? Where was the looting?

You find any - and such things are quite common at leftwing protests (i.e., 2003 antiwar protests in San Francisco and Berkely, Rodney King Riots, David Horowitz speeches on university campuses...)

Shouting and screaming in town hall meetings is not free speech.

Those who did in ours were arrested, detained outside while their identities and residences were verified, and then released with a warning: play nice, share your toys, or do not cross Go.