Should America Bid Farewell to Exceptional Freedom?

[Skull Pilot]

If Social Security were a "Ponzi scheme," it never would have worked from the first year out. The only reason it can't work now without some adjustment is because people are living longer, thereby collecting longer, and more in benefits are paid out than taken in.

Wrong. Social Security is very much a Ponzi Scheme because there are less workers supporting the recipients than there were when the program was implemented. There were 16 workers for every recipient back in the 1930s. Today there are two and now you have the Baby Boomers, the largest generation, retiring. People don't have eight kids like they did back in those days to sustain the system.

That's what I said. But you're implying that from the start it was a Ponzi scheme, and it wasn't. Your own words confirm that. Was the design flawed by not taking into consideration that there would gradually become more recipients than workers to support it? Well yeah. On that I agree.

It doesn't matter what SS started as. It matters what it is. And what it is is a Ponzi Scheme.

Roads to hell and good intentions come to mind.

 

[beowolfe]

Maybe you were thinking of the right to open a manufacturing plant and not hire collective bargainers...

People have been doing that for decades....it's called 'right to work states'

Or open an Insurance company and not being forced to set aside acturial principles and forced to pay for certain losses of those who are already sick...

Now that we're heading into a system that insures everyone, this isn't an issue anymore.

Or to make commission contracts with an employer and expect to be paid on my hitting the performance thresholds of that contract.

You still can.......unless you took taxpayer money to bail out BS decisions by your company's executives. Sort of like union contracts at GM

Or to not buy healthinsurance...

On this one, you're correct. But others were paying for your right to not buy health insurance. Now, you'll pay your own way.

Or to not have significant portions of the product of my labor confiscated to subsidize the ethereal needs of the collective.

It's your position that Obama invented taxes? (Because that's what you're railing against in this one)

 

[boedicca]

Really? Which practices that are common in other areas of the world are routinely done in America:

- Female Genital Mutilation
- Stoning Rape Victims
- Marrying 8 year old girls to old men
- Executing Gays for Being Gay
- Raping children to Cure Disease
- Slavery (sexual and otherwise)

Oh please. Using third world mentality as an analogy is ungrocky. Does Great Britain engage in those activities?

Stay focused. We were discussing the US, not any foreign nation.

Putting the freedom we have in America in the context of the rest of the world and history is perfectly appropriate.

Freedom has been enjoyed by far more than Caucasoid Males.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If Social Security were a "Ponzi scheme," it never would have worked from the first year out. The only reason it can't work now without some adjustment is because people are living longer, thereby collecting longer, and more in benefits are paid out than taken in.

As for the rest of your analysis, assuming you are griping about the possibility of taxes being raised, even if that happens, the rate will be increased only to the level under the Clinton Administration, and I don't recall too many unhappy people during the 90's.

SS is a Ponzi scheme because it takes the payments of one person to provide the benefits for another.

There is no investment, no capital appreciation. The reason it worked for as long as it did was because the baby boomers were paying into SS to support the benefits to a much smaller population.

The reason it is failing now is that there are less people paying in to support the benefits being paid out.

You do know that SS has been nothing but an off the books slush fund for indiscriminate government spending right?

And the point of my other responses was not solely taxes.

RightWanker put forth the proposition that we who want less government infringement on our freedoms were somehow racist and homophobic.

But giving minorities equal access and expanding their freedoms did not lessen anyone else's freedoms.

The ultra left progressive idiocy of today is lessening our freedoms by allowing the government more control over our lives.

If you don't see the plain as day fact the the government being allowed to force us to buy insurance is a lessening of liberty then there really is no point in arguing with you as you are devoid of all reason.

A true Ponzi scheme leaves new "investors" with nothing. Social Security recipients, regardless when they become beneficiaries, continue to receive benefits. I'm certainly not arguing that Social Security is solvent, because it is not. But it isn't about to be tossed into the dumpster in favor of some other riskier form of government retirement program either. It would be completely impossible to just yank the rug out from under millions of people. So, for that reason alone, arguing over the reasons why SS has failed is stupid. It isn't a political debate, as both parties have stolen from the trust fund and neither party has done anything other than put patches on it.

As for the rest of your stuff, I'm really really really tired of arguing ideology. I'm sick to death of hearing that freedoms have been lost, liberties are nonexistent, and that conservatives have ALL the solutions to ALL our problems and thereafter we'll ALL be able to run around waving flags of freedom because of it. You do not have all the answers.

You see solutions as being as simple as just throwing out the old and shooting for those utopian stars where everyone should be healthy and wealthy if it weren't for those pesky government social programs, and it could all be accomplished without taxing anyone. Happy happy joy joy. But of course you ignore the whole landscape and see only your own flower bed through rose-colored glasses. So yes, you're right. There's no point in arguing because in my opinion, it is YOU who is devoid of all reason.

we haven't topped out the pyramid yet.

Do you really expect people in the future to get back what they put in?

Simple point of fact: if we kept our own money in our own accounts where the government could not raid them, we would all have more money in retirement than we would know what to do with.

Could you imagine a generation of Seniors where say 80% of them did not need the government in retirement?

I can but the government can't.

 

[Immanuel]

A true Ponzi scheme leaves new "investors" with nothing. Social Security recipients, regardless when they become beneficiaries, continue to receive benefits. I'm certainly not arguing that Social Security is solvent, because it is not. But it isn't about to be tossed into the dumpster in favor of some other riskier form of government retirement program either. It would be completely impossible to just yank the rug out from under millions of people. So, for that reason alone, arguing over the reasons why SS has failed is stupid. It isn't a political debate, as both parties have stolen from the trust fund and neither party has done anything other than put patches on it.

As for the rest of your stuff, I'm really really really tired of arguing ideology. I'm sick to death of hearing that freedoms have been lost, liberties are nonexistent, and that conservatives have ALL the solutions to ALL our problems and thereafter we'll ALL be able to run around waving flags of freedom because of it. You do not have all the answers.

You see solutions as being as simple as just throwing out the old and shooting for those utopian stars where everyone should be healthy and wealthy if it weren't for those pesky government social programs, and it could all be accomplished without taxing anyone. Happy happy joy joy. But of course you ignore the whole landscape and see only your own flower bed through rose-colored glasses. So yes, you're right. There's no point in arguing because in my opinion, it is YOU who is devoid of all reason.

You are absolutely right that Social Security will continue to go on and on and on. Neither party is going to allow Social Security to fail. They simply cannot allow that to happen not only for those who need the retirement income, but also because they depend on the funds that they co-mingle with the General Fund.

However, there are ways to wean us off of it. It would take at least a generation, but it could be done, if we wanted to do it.

I don't think conservative "answers" are any better than liberal answers. I think if we want to solve our problems we have to be willing to sit down together and talk about them from both sides of the spectrum and then decide to come to terms with the solutions that are presented.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime in the next dozen lifetimes or so.

Immie

Well I still maintain a glimmer of hope that there still remains enough sensible people who understand that no government can withstand for very long the outright civil war going on among the principal parties, and that they will HAVE to come to compromising positions soon, and it will take a LOT of give and take by both.

I don't think "they" will come to understand that.

By "they" I mean the political parties and the men and women who run this country.

"We" meaning the common citizens have no say in the matter. Sure we can vote the S.O.B.s out of office, but the parties are the ones that tell us who will run in their places and the new-comers are no different than those whom we boot out on their buttocks, so I am not so certain this country can withstand what we are now going through.

And quite frankly, that saddens me.

Immie

 

[Skull Pilot]

The idea that Americans are massively overtaxed is a bit bizarre, considering things like the following:

Have you ever thought that the strengths of the USA stem from the fact that we are NOT just like every other country in the world? I don't know about you but I want to keep it that way.

It is not a bad thing that we are different but the libby progressives will have us think that because we don't have high taxes like the rest of the world that we are somehow living in the stone age.

we're actually pretty cutting edge, skull. our debt and deficits, mainly because we choose to borrow rather than tax our citizens for what we spend, are without peer. on the upside, though, despite many conservatives and libertarians paradoxically criticizing the Fed, it holds together a magical monetary policy which better compensates for debt, deficit and their inflationary effects, than any other world/central bank.

I wouldn't call spending more than one takes in cutting edge at all.

We could do very well for ourselves if we put our country first in terms of all priorities. We don't.

We are taxed billions for infrastructure yet our roads are in disrepair all the while we use our resources to build roads and infrastructure in foreign countries.

That would be like living in a tar paper shack while spending you money to fix up someone else's house. Pretty stupid huh?

The government confiscates enough of our money as to completely modernize our entire country but we do not have our priorities straight.

 

[Immanuel]

Could you imagine a generation of Seniors where say 80% of them did not need the government in retirement?

I can but the government can't.

Maybe they can and that is why they are so afraid of the idea?

Heck, if that happened, they couldn't control that voting block.

Immie

 

[Skull Pilot]

Could you imagine a generation of Seniors where say 80% of them did not need the government in retirement?

I can but the government can't.

Maybe they can and that is why they are so afraid of the idea?

Heck, if that happened, they couldn't control that voting block.

Immie

 

[boedicca]

I wouldn't call spending more than one takes in cutting edge at all.

We could do very well for ourselves if we put our country first in terms of all priorities. We don't.

We are taxed billions for infrastructure yet our roads are in disrepair all the while we use our resources to build roads and infrastructure in foreign countries.

That would be like living in a tar paper shack while spending you money to fix up someone else's house. Pretty stupid huh?

The government confiscates enough of our money as to completely modernize our entire country but we do not have our priorities straight.

Spending is not investment. Sadly, the moral hazard of having access to Other People's Money results in things like this:

The former co-owner of a Houston a durable medical equipment company has been convicted of bilking Medicaid of nearly $1 million in a scheme involving adult diapers, federal authorities said.

Fred Jessie Cole Jr., 44, pleaded guilty to 14 counts of health care fraud connected to a scam to file fraudulent claims for incontinence supplies, such as diapers and briefs, federal authorities said late Monday.

Cole, who is free on bond, is scheduled to be sentenced Aug. 11.

He faces up to 10 years in prison, a fine of up to $250,000 and up to three years of supervised release.

Federal officials said Cole, who was co-owner of Crusade Integrated Health Services, admitted to submitting fraudulent claims to the Texas Medicaid Program for incontinence supplies that were either not delivered to Medicaid beneficiaries, wanted by Medicaid beneficiaries or medically needed.

Between May 3, 2003, and Sept. 1, 2006, Cole submitted $1,068,387 worth of claims for diapers and briefs to Medicaid and was paid $937,567 for those claims, federal officials said.

Federal authorities said he admitted to submitting claims to Medicaid for the delivery of 1,338,466 units of diapers and briefs when he only purchased 314,571 units for delivery and to forging the signatures of Medicaid beneficiaries on delivery tickets to cover up the fact that he was billing Medicaid for more than he was providing.


Houston man convicted in $1M adult diaper scam | Houston & Texas News | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle


He steals $1M - and is fined $250K.

Great. That's a big incentive for people to continue to defraud the government - they just need to pay off a patsy to do the jail time while they cash in.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The collective reactionary mentality here has clearly lost this discussion. Move on folks, nothing to see here.

 

[beowolfe]

Oh please. Using third world mentality as an analogy is ungrocky. Does Great Britain engage in those activities?

Stay focused. We were discussing the US, not any foreign nation.

Putting the freedom we have in America in the context of the rest of the world and history is perfectly appropriate.

Freedom has been enjoyed by far more than Caucasoid Males.

So, you think the US is great because the rest of the world is worse????

 

[antagon]

that is how qualified judgment is made, beo.

 

[boedicca]

Yes. I do.

America is a better place to live than countries in which women's genitals are mutilated, gays are stoned to death, children are raped in superstitious practices, etc.

We live in a Freer Society than has been enjoyed by the vast amount of humans who have ever lived. Most have lived in Fear societies. If we lived in the latter, you would not be free to post snarky hostile comments about it on the internet.

 

[The T]

Stay focused. We were discussing the US, not any foreign nation.

Putting the freedom we have in America in the context of the rest of the world and history is perfectly appropriate.

Freedom has been enjoyed by far more than Caucasoid Males.

So, you think the US is great because the rest of the world is worse????

I can see that Logic, and understanding of basic Human Nature isn't your strong suit.

 

[The T]

Yes. I do.

America is a better place to live than countries in which women's genitals are mutilated, gays are stoned to death, children are raped in superstitious practices, etc.

We live in a Freer Society than has been enjoyed by the vast amount of humans who have ever lived. Most have lived in Fear societies. If we lived in the latter, you would not be free to post snarky hostile comments about it on the internet.

And the fact that *WE* are a nation governed by the Rule of LAW, and not of MEN which was a brilliant stroke by the Founders to attest to the fact that *WE* haven't become as other nations that lacked the forsight of the Founders.

This is so simple to see...these people boedicca have eyes but yet they remain blind and ignorant to boot. [To say something of intellectually LAZY would be a moot point]

 

[beowolfe]

Yes. I do.

America is a better place to live than countries in which women's genitals are mutilated, gays are stoned to death, children are raped in superstitious practices, etc.

We live in a Freer Society than has been enjoyed by the vast amount of humans who have ever lived. Most have lived in Fear societies. If we lived in the latter, you would not be free to post snarky hostile comments about it on the internet.

Let's see........we have children being raped here. We have gays that are sometimes beaten to death by gangs of homophobes here. We have boys getting their genitals mutilated here. So, by YOUR standards. America looks like the some of the countries that you think are oh so horrible.

You can't post snarky internet comments in practically ALL of the nations on this planet. But like in the US, some of your internet posts can get you in 'deep doo doo' with the authorities.

You guys have some weird ideas about what goes on in this and other countries.

 

[xsited1]

Yes. I do.

America is a better place to live than countries in which women's genitals are mutilated, gays are stoned to death, children are raped in superstitious practices, etc.

We live in a Freer Society than has been enjoyed by the vast amount of humans who have ever lived. Most have lived in Fear societies. If we lived in the latter, you would not be free to post snarky hostile comments about it on the internet.

Let's see........we have children being raped here. We have gays that are sometimes beaten to death by gangs of homophobes here. We have boys getting their genitals mutilated here. So, by YOUR standards. America looks like the some of the countries that you think are oh so horrible.

You can't post snarky internet comments in practically ALL of the nations on this planet. But like in the US, some of your internet posts can get you in 'deep doo doo' with the authorities.

You guys have some weird ideas about what goes on in this and other countries.

Awesome troll post!

Obviously, America has rapists and murderers, etc., but our laws do not allow these crimes to go unpunished. You obviously knew the distinction the poster was making, but chose to ignore it for trolling purposes. Great job!

 

[Meister]

Yes. I do.

America is a better place to live than countries in which women's genitals are mutilated, gays are stoned to death, children are raped in superstitious practices, etc.

We live in a Freer Society than has been enjoyed by the vast amount of humans who have ever lived. Most have lived in Fear societies. If we lived in the latter, you would not be free to post snarky hostile comments about it on the internet.

Let's see........we have children being raped here. We have gays that are sometimes beaten to death by gangs of homophobes here. We have boys getting their genitals mutilated here. So, by YOUR standards. America looks like the some of the countries that you think are oh so horrible.

You can't post snarky internet comments in practically ALL of the nations on this planet. But like in the US, some of your internet posts can get you in 'deep doo doo' with the authorities.

You guys have some weird ideas about what goes on in this and other countries.

Beowolfe....how old are you?
Have you not learned the word comprehension and practiced it?

 

[beowolfe]

Yes. I do.

America is a better place to live than countries in which women's genitals are mutilated, gays are stoned to death, children are raped in superstitious practices, etc.

We live in a Freer Society than has been enjoyed by the vast amount of humans who have ever lived. Most have lived in Fear societies. If we lived in the latter, you would not be free to post snarky hostile comments about it on the internet.

Let's see........we have children being raped here. We have gays that are sometimes beaten to death by gangs of homophobes here. We have boys getting their genitals mutilated here. So, by YOUR standards. America looks like the some of the countries that you think are oh so horrible.

You can't post snarky internet comments in practically ALL of the nations on this planet. But like in the US, some of your internet posts can get you in 'deep doo doo' with the authorities.

You guys have some weird ideas about what goes on in this and other countries.

Awesome troll post!

Obviously, America has rapists and murderers, etc., but our laws do not allow these crimes to go unpunished. You obviously knew the distinction the poster was making, but chose to ignore it for trolling purposes. Great job!

So, which countries are you claiming have laws that allow rape and murder? As for trolls, you the king man!! No one can beat you!!!

 

[Meister]

Let's see........we have children being raped here. We have gays that are sometimes beaten to death by gangs of homophobes here. We have boys getting their genitals mutilated here. So, by YOUR standards. America looks like the some of the countries that you think are oh so horrible.

You can't post snarky internet comments in practically ALL of the nations on this planet. But like in the US, some of your internet posts can get you in 'deep doo doo' with the authorities.

You guys have some weird ideas about what goes on in this and other countries.

Awesome troll post!

Obviously, America has rapists and murderers, etc., but our laws do not allow these crimes to go unpunished. You obviously knew the distinction the poster was making, but chose to ignore it for trolling purposes. Great job!

So, which countries are you claiming have laws that allow rape and murder? As for trolls, you the king man!! No one can beat you!!!

Exsited is no troll, Beowolfe.