Ships return to dock as Syria chemical weapons deadline missed

[georgephillip]

Maybe the Iraqi government should have complied with their obligations then, rather than violating them to an extent wherein further sanctions were necessary... it was their choice.

Why murder children because their government doesn't conform to your malignant conception of morality?

Civilians die during (and subsequent to) military actions.

Had the Iraqi government complied with UN and treaty-imposed obligations and ceased provocative military actions, none of that would have happened.

The Iraqi government and its leadership made that choice on behalf of their people.

Bad decisions have consquences.

What provocative military actions did Iraq commit after 1991?

 

[Kondor3]

How about violations of No-Fly Zones and shooting (AA guns, SAMs) at Coalition aircraft engaged in legitimate monitoting and patrol functions?

 

[georgephillip]

How about violations of No-Fly Zones and shooting (AA guns, SAMs) at Coalition aircraft engaged in legitimate monitoting and patrol functions?

How about coalition aircraft dropping bombs on civilians prior to Iraqi shooting?

 

[Kondor3]

How about violations of No-Fly Zones and shooting (AA guns, SAMs) at Coalition aircraft engaged in legitimate monitoting and patrol functions?

How about coalition aircraft dropping bombs on civilians prior to Iraqi shooting?

I have no knowledge of such things.

This does not mean that they do not exist; merely that I have no knowledge of them.

I remember regular media updates saying that the Iraqis had sortied aircraft over no-fly zones.

I remember regular media updates saying that the Iraqis had taken pot-shots (guns, missiles, etc.) at Coalition aircraft engaged in routine monitoring operations.

I'm sure those old incident reports are fairly easy to dig-up, online.

Do you have reliable reports of Coalition aircraft deliberately targeting Iraqi civilians after the 1991 War had ended, and before the 2003 War began, such deliberate targeting of civilians being the underlying reason or trigger for Iraqi fire?

I'm sure that at least some folks in the audience would be interested in seeing solid evidence in that vein, stipulating that the Coalition had deliberately targeted civilians, and that that is why the Iraqis opened fire.

And, if, by some chance, you are able to establish such example(s), we are going to need to look at frequency or volume, to determine whether we are looking at a matter of policy, or one or two isolated incidents that cannot be used to explain all the rest of the Iraqi violations in question.

Have at it.

I really want to know.

 

[Roudy]

How about violations of No-Fly Zones and shooting (AA guns, SAMs) at Coalition aircraft engaged in legitimate monitoting and patrol functions?

How about coalition aircraft dropping bombs on civilians prior to Iraqi shooting?

Bullshit.

 

[georgephillip]

That's not the point.

You asked how many Muslims were killing each other in Iraq prior to 2003.

I gave you a range of numbers from credible sources.

Sources that put the death toll anywhere between 250,000 and 1,000,000 and beyond.

Your attempt to portray Iraq as a Muslim-triggered pogrom-free zone prior to 2003 failed.

None of that other happy horseshit has anything to do with your point getting hosed.

And make no mistake about it.

Your attempt to portray Iraq as a Muslim pogrom-free zone prior to 2003 failed miserably.


I do not call the serving-up of requested credible data to be 'rambling and deflection'.


Non sequitur to the points being made at the time.


Ahhhhh... thus begins the latest exercise in Muslim Moral Relativism.

Again... non sequitur to the points being made at the time.

Nice try at wiggling out of getting an unexpected answer to your question about Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq prior to 2003...

Not...

An embarrassing 'Fail' for you in all of this, actually.

Got it?

You don't.
That's obvious.
I'll type slower.

I made no attempt to portray Iraq as a Muslim pogrom-free zone prior to 2003.

Those words are all yours.

I alleged the number of Muslims in Iraq who were killing, maiming, and displacing each other was far less prior to the US invasion in 2003.

You've failed to disprove that.
Spectacularly, I might add.

so saddam killing 250,000 iraqi and the world should have left him in place? They did that after desert storm and it was a disaster.

Your solution to Saddam's butchery is to murder, maim, displace, and incarcerate millions of additional Iraqis, is that right? Most Iraqis today believe they were better off before 1991 and Desert Storm:

"The increased importance of air attacks from both warplanes and cruise missiles led to controversy over the number of civilian deaths caused during the war's initial stages.

"Within the war's first 24 hours, more than 1,000 sorties were flown, many against targets in Baghdad.

"The city was the target of heavy bombing, as it was the seat of power for Saddam and the Iraqi forces' command and control.

"This ultimately led to civilian casualties.

"In one noted incident, two USAF stealth planes bombed a bunker in Amiriyah, causing the deaths of 408 Iraqi civilians who were in the shelter.[118] Scenes of burned and mutilated bodies were subsequently broadcast, and controversy arose over the bunker's status, with some stating that it was a civilian shelter, while others contended that it was a center of Iraqi military operations, and that the civilians had been deliberately moved there to act as human shields.

"An investigation by Beth Osborne Daponte estimated total civilian fatalities at about 3,500 from bombing, and some 100,000 from the war's other effects."

Gulf War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[georgephillip]

"...I made no attempt to portray Iraq as a Muslim pogrom-free zone prior to 2003. Those words are all yours..."

Correct.

Inferred from the following...

"...How many 'Islamic third world'ers' were killing each other in Iraq prior to March 2003?"

...and even admitting, a post or two ago, that it was an inference.

----------

"...I alleged the number of Muslims in Iraq who were killing, maiming, and displacing each other was far less prior to the US invasion in 2003..."

That was not articulated in your one-liner (above), which is what I was responding to.

"...You've failed to disprove that. Spectacularly, I might add."

Incorrect.

I didn't even try.

It's a little difficult to fail at something - spectacularly or otherwise - if you never even began.

Better luck next time.

From the question, "how many Islamic third world'ers' were killing each other in Iraq prior to March 2003" you inferred "an attempt to portray Iraq as a Muslim pogram-free zone prior to 2003", is that right, Lucky?

 

[Kondor3]

"...Your solution to Saddam's butchery is to murder, maim, displace, and incarcerate millions of additional Iraqis, is that right? Most Iraqis today believe they were better off before 1991 and Desert Storm..."

Who gives a fuck what the Iraqis think about how-and-when they were better off prior to Desert Storm?

The point of the exercise in 1991 was to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait, after they had invaded.

Don't want to get your people killed?

Don't invade your neighbors.

Especially when your goal is to strengthen your hold on oil fields and waterways to the detriment of the rest of the world.

They were better off before Desert Storm?

Who gives a rat's ass?

They invaded Kuwait and started that whole mess.

Fuck 'em.

Although ya gotta hand it to them...

They DID crisp-up nicely, skeddadling back to Iraq, didn't they?

 

[Kondor3]

From the question, "how many Islamic third world'ers' were killing each other in Iraq prior to March 2003" you inferred "an attempt to portray Iraq as a Muslim pogram-free zone prior to 2003", is that right, Lucky?

Yep. Given the context, that's the way I read it. And I'm perfectly willing to admit that, right or wrong - which is more than I've ever seen you do. So what?

 

[georgephillip]

Malnutrition and contaminated water due to US targeting the Baghdad electrical grid. Why do you ask, since you obviously couldn't care less?

are you clueless to what Saddam was doing to his own people?

No, he chooses to ignore that. As long as it's a Muslim doing it to another Muslim, they could be killing millions and it won't phase them. You see, they know what their own brethren are capable of better than us Infidels and Kufars.

Hasbara knows best, right?

 

[georgephillip]

Malnutrition and contaminated water due to US targeting the Baghdad electrical grid. Why do you ask, since you obviously couldn't care less?

are you clueless to what Saddam was doing to his own people?

No, he chooses to ignore that. As long as it's a Muslim doing it to another Muslim, they could be killing millions and it won't phase them. You see, they know what their own brethren are capable of better than us Infidels and Kufars.

If you're American, your government has killed millions of innocent human beings from Korea to Kandahar since the end of WWII. Why don't you care more about that?

 

[georgephillip]

Maybe the Iraqi government should have complied with their obligations then, rather than violating them to an extent wherein further sanctions were necessary... it was their choice.

Why murder children because their government doesn't conform to your malignant conception of morality?

You mean Sadam Hussein (no relation to our Barack Hussein) was dropping chemical weapons on Kurdish Iraqi villages because it didn't "conform to Western malignant conception of morality"? Good to know.

Saddam, Bush, and Barry serve the same malignant Master:

"Dramatic increases in infant mortality, cancer and leukaemia in the Iraqi city of Fallujah, which was bombarded by US Marines in 2004, exceed those reported by survivors of the atomic bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, according to a new study."

Toxic legacy of US assault on Fallujah 'worse than Hiroshima' - Middle East - World - The Independent

 

[georgephillip]

How about violations of No-Fly Zones and shooting (AA guns, SAMs) at Coalition aircraft engaged in legitimate monitoting and patrol functions?

How about coalition aircraft dropping bombs on civilians prior to Iraqi shooting?

I have no knowledge of such things.

This does not mean that they do not exist; merely that I have no knowledge of them.

I remember regular media updates saying that the Iraqis had sortied aircraft over no-fly zones.

I remember regular media updates saying that the Iraqis had taken pot-shots (guns, missiles, etc.) at Coalition aircraft engaged in routine monitoring operations.

I'm sure those old incident reports are fairly easy to dig-up, online.

Do you have reliable reports of Coalition aircraft deliberately targeting Iraqi civilians after the 1991 War had ended, and before the 2003 War began, such deliberate targeting of civilians being the underlying reason or trigger for Iraqi fire?

I'm sure that at least some folks in the audience would be interested in seeing solid evidence in that vein, stipulating that the Coalition had deliberately targeted civilians, and that that is why the Iraqis opened fire.

And, if, by some chance, you are able to establish such example(s), we are going to need to look at frequency or volume, to determine whether we are looking at a matter of policy, or one or two isolated incidents that cannot be used to explain all the rest of the Iraqi violations in question.

Have at it.

I really want to know.

I'm sure I can dig up old reports of Coalition aircraft instigating hostile actions by Iraqi AA batteries; however, I fail to see why I should take the time since you'll likely find my sources to be not credible.

I have exactly the same regard for your "old incident reports."

FWIW, I want to know why someone of your education and intelligence fails to consider the obvious possibility that the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World is also the Worlds Biggest Liar?

 

[Phoenall]

are you clueless to what Saddam was doing to his own people?

No, he chooses to ignore that. As long as it's a Muslim doing it to another Muslim, they could be killing millions and it won't phase them. You see, they know what their own brethren are capable of better than us Infidels and Kufars.

Hasbara knows best, right?

Kithman and taqiya will always be used when a dhimmi is up against a wall

 

[Phoenall]

are you clueless to what Saddam was doing to his own people?

No, he chooses to ignore that. As long as it's a Muslim doing it to another Muslim, they could be killing millions and it won't phase them. You see, they know what their own brethren are capable of better than us Infidels and Kufars.

If you're American, your government has killed millions of innocent human beings from Korea to Kandahar since the end of WWII. Why don't you care more about that?

More to the point why don't you and leave the Jews alone, or is it your dhimmi job to spot LIES and LIBELS

 

[georgephillip]

"...Your solution to Saddam's butchery is to murder, maim, displace, and incarcerate millions of additional Iraqis, is that right? Most Iraqis today believe they were better off before 1991 and Desert Storm..."

Who gives a fuck what the Iraqis think about how-and-when they were better off prior to Desert Storm?

The point of the exercise in 1991 was to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait, after they had invaded.

Don't want to get your people killed?

Don't invade your neighbors.

Especially when your goal is to strengthen your hold on oil fields and waterways to the detriment of the rest of the world.

They were better off before Desert Storm?

Who gives a rat's ass?

They invaded Kuwait and started that whole mess.

Fuck 'em.

Although ya gotta hand it to them...

They DID crisp-up nicely, skeddadling back to Iraq, didn't they?

Cyberspace commandos always find the cold blooded, for-profit murder of other people's children something to laugh about.

'Shame they can't find out how it feels

 

[georgephillip]

No, he chooses to ignore that. As long as it's a Muslim doing it to another Muslim, they could be killing millions and it won't phase them. You see, they know what their own brethren are capable of better than us Infidels and Kufars.

If you're American, your government has killed millions of innocent human beings from Korea to Kandahar since the end of WWII. Why don't you care more about that?

More to the point why don't you and leave the Jews alone, or is it your dhimmi job to spot LIES and LIBELS

I'm not paid or otherwise materially compensated to post on USMB.
Are 'Jew?

 

[irosie91]

Can someone tell me OF WHAT a half million Iraqi children died because of sanctions?

Malnutrition and contaminated water due to US targeting the Baghdad electrical grid. Why do you ask, since you obviously couldn't care less?

Maybe the Iraqi government should have complied with their obligations then, rather than violating them to an extent wherein further sanctions were necessary... it was their choice.

I still do not know of what half a million Iraqi children died. What effect did bombing
baghdad electrical grid have on the children of Iraq? -------what were the sicknesses
induced by the "contaminated water" ----with what was the water contaminated?

I have heard all kinds of very very very vague reasons-----there is no actual documentation -----no pictures of starving kids lining the streets of Baghdad. Circa 1970--
there were pictures even DEEP in Nigeria of starved Biafran kids Anyone know of any
documentation of this happening? Way back ----sometime around 1980---there were
pictures out of Baghdad of people HANGED----by the charming Sadaam---for some
weird reason he liked to hang people in the nude. . There were pictures of dead kurds
compliments of saddam too.

Without a shred of evidence-----I tend to disbelieve that story about half a million dead
Iraqi children because of sanctions

 

[georgephillip]

Malnutrition and contaminated water due to US targeting the Baghdad electrical grid. Why do you ask, since you obviously couldn't care less?

Maybe the Iraqi government should have complied with their obligations then, rather than violating them to an extent wherein further sanctions were necessary... it was their choice.

I still do not know of what half a million Iraqi children died. What effect did bombing
baghdad electrical grid have on the children of Iraq? -------what were the sicknesses
induced by the "contaminated water" ----with what was the water contaminated?

I have heard all kinds of very very very vague reasons-----there is no actual documentation -----no pictures of starving kids lining the streets of Baghdad. Circa 1970--
there were pictures even DEEP in Nigeria of starved Biafran kids Anyone know of any
documentation of this happening? Way back ----sometime around 1980---there were
pictures out of Baghdad of people HANGED----by the charming Sadaam---for some
weird reason he liked to hang people in the nude. . There were pictures of dead kurds
compliments of saddam too.

Without a shred of evidence-----I tend to disbelieve that story about half a million dead
Iraqi children because of sanctions

"During the 1970s, border disputes with Iran and Kuwait caused many problems.

"Kuwait's refusal to allow Iraq to build a harbor in the Shatt al-Arab delta strengthened Iraq's belief that conservative powers in the region were trying to control the Persian Gulf.

"Iran's occupation of numerous islands in the Strait of Hormuz didn't help alter Iraq's fears.

"The border disputes between Iraq and Iran were temporarily resolved with the signing of the Algiers Accord on 6 March 1975.

"In 1972 an Iraqi delegation visited Moscow.

"The same year diplomatic relations with the US were restored.

"Relations with Jordan and Syria were good. Iraqi troops were stationed in both countries. During the 1973 October War, Iraqi divisions engaged Israeli forces.

"In retrospect, the 1970s can be seen as a high point in Iraq's modern history. A new, young, technocratic elite was governing the country and the fast-growing economy brought prosperity and stability.

"Many Arabs outside Iraq considered it an example. However, the following decades would not be as favorable for the fledgling country."

20th-century history of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What was your world like in the '70s, Rosie?

 

[SAYIT]

Maybe the Iraqi government should have complied with their obligations then, rather than violating them to an extent wherein further sanctions were necessary... it was their choice.

I still do not know of what half a million Iraqi children died. What effect did bombing
baghdad electrical grid have on the children of Iraq? -------what were the sicknesses
induced by the "contaminated water" ----with what was the water contaminated?

I have heard all kinds of very very very vague reasons-----there is no actual documentation -----no pictures of starving kids lining the streets of Baghdad. Circa 1970--
there were pictures even DEEP in Nigeria of starved Biafran kids Anyone know of any
documentation of this happening? Way back ----sometime around 1980---there were
pictures out of Baghdad of people HANGED----by the charming Sadaam---for some
weird reason he liked to hang people in the nude. . There were pictures of dead kurds
compliments of saddam too.

Without a shred of evidence-----I tend to disbelieve that story about half a million dead
Iraqi children because of sanctions

"During the 1970s, border disputes with Iran and Kuwait caused many problems.

"Kuwait's refusal to allow Iraq to build a harbor in the Shatt al-Arab delta strengthened Iraq's belief that conservative powers in the region were trying to control the Persian Gulf.

"Iran's occupation of numerous islands in the Strait of Hormuz didn't help alter Iraq's fears.

"The border disputes between Iraq and Iran were temporarily resolved with the signing of the Algiers Accord on 6 March 1975.

"In 1972 an Iraqi delegation visited Moscow.

"The same year diplomatic relations with the US were restored.

"Relations with Jordan and Syria were good. Iraqi troops were stationed in both countries. During the 1973 October War, Iraqi divisions engaged Israeli forces.

"In retrospect, the 1970s can be seen as a high point in Iraq's modern history. A new, young, technocratic elite was governing the country and the fast-growing economy brought prosperity and stability.

"Many Arabs outside Iraq considered it an example. However, the following decades would not be as favorable for the fledgling country."

20th-century history of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What was your world like in the '70s, Rosie?

Hmmm. Iraqi troops stationed in neighboring Syria and Jordan in the early 70s. I wonder why.
BTW, Saddam took over in 1979 and led Iraq from their 1970s "high point in Iraq's modern history" into the tyrannical abyss so common in the Arab/Muslim Mideast.