Sharon: F*** The Road Map!

[NATO AIR]

this is pretty much my breaking point with Israel. I understand that the Palestinian leadership is essentially hopeless right now, and that is a terrible situation for every one (especially innocent Israelis who are slaughtered by terrorists). However, Israel has done next to nothing for the Palestinian people, denying them jobs (hence money to pay for food, housing, children), denying them dignity, tearing down their houses indiscriminately, etc etc.
I have no qualms with going after terrorists (i'm glad they're hunting down Hamas) but they are not addressing the future or the present by doing nothing but hunting down terrorists.

so now they've told Pres. Bush and Tony Blair, "F*** You, we're doing our own thing."

so it would be so wonderful, if only pres. bush was not concerned with the jewish lobby's support (as any politician trying to stay in office is, face it these lobbies are very powerful, just like other interest groups (african-americans, christian conservatives, liberals, cubans, etc etc), if pres. bush could say "f the israelis, you don't want to follow our plan, don't want to work together with us, fine then, there goes your funding and aid"

unfortunately this will not happen. shame it doesn't though. pres. George Bush I stood up to the Israelis, perhaps his son could as well.

hopefully sharon and his even farther on the right enemies will ignite a civil war in israel over all this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5974183/
JERUSALEM - Israel will not follow the U.S.-backed “road map” peace plan and could remain in much of the West Bank for a long time after it withdraws from the Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said in a newspaper interview published Wednesday.

 

[dilloduck]

this is pretty much my breaking point with Israel. I understand that the Palestinian leadership is essentially hopeless right now, and that is a terrible situation for every one (especially innocent Israelis who are slaughtered by terrorists). However, Israel has done next to nothing for the Palestinian people, denying them jobs (hence money to pay for food, housing, children), denying them dignity, tearing down their houses indiscriminately, etc etc.
I have no qualms with going after terrorists (i'm glad they're hunting down Hamas) but they are not addressing the future or the present by doing nothing but hunting down terrorists.

so now they've told Pres. Bush and Tony Blair, "F*** You, we're doing our own thing."

so it would be so wonderful, if only pres. bush was not concerned with the jewish lobby's support (as any politician trying to stay in office is, face it these lobbies are very powerful, just like other interest groups (african-americans, christian conservatives, liberals, cubans, etc etc), if pres. bush could say "f the israelis, you don't want to follow our plan, don't want to work together with us, fine then, there goes your funding and aid"

unfortunately this will not happen. shame it doesn't though. pres. George Bush I stood up to the Israelis, perhaps his son could as well.

hopefully sharon and his even farther on the right enemies will ignite a civil war in israel over all this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5974183/
JERUSALEM - Israel will not follow the U.S.-backed “road map” peace plan and could remain in much of the West Bank for a long time after it withdraws from the Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said in a newspaper interview published Wednesday.

I heard the Knesset has approved the money (American Aid of course) to be used to buy the settlers off if they move. probelm is---they won't move anyway. Sharon is in it deep.

 

[NATO AIR]

i wash my hands of these oppressive tyrants.... they're misusing our tax dollars and using the WOT to justify their continued oppression of the palestinians.

i mean, god, there are Palestinian terrorists who deserve a bomb or a missile in their life, but what about the other 90% of the population that would gladly live in peace, or something close to it, anything compared to the hell they're experiencing now and will in the future.

 

[NightTrain]

i mean, god, there are Palestinian terrorists who deserve a bomb or a missile in their life, but what about the other 90% of the population that would gladly live in peace, or something close to it, anything compared to the hell they're experiencing now and will in the future.

Those 90% need to stand up for themselves, then, and get rid of Arafat and his henchmen. Then something different can happen, but until Arafat is removed from the picture, they're led by a terrorist and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[NATO AIR]

you are right. they need to do a lot more to stand up for themselves (they're taking baby steps now)

do you think it would be good in the long run if hamas or islamic jihad killed arafat?

 

[NightTrain]

Absolutely. Hell, I don't care who takes him out, as long as he's removed from the picture. The end justifies the means.

Hamas and Islamid Jihad won't take him out, he's the top dog of all those terrorists in the region. He pretends to be against terrorism while quietly directing them.

No, I suspect Israel will dispatch a hunter/killer team to rub him out... they should have snuffed him decades ago.

 

[Annie]

Absolutely. Hell, I don't care who takes him out, as long as he's removed from the picture. The end justifies the means.

Hamas and Islamid Jihad won't take him out, he's the top dog of all those terrorists in the region. He pretends to be against terrorism while quietly directing them.

No, I suspect Israel will dispatch a hunter/killer team to rub him out... they should have snuffed him decades ago.

I agree. It will eventually be Israel to take Arafat out, if he does not croak due to natural causes. The problem is, there are not enough 'moderates' willing to take a stand. That is the reason that the Gaza/West Bank will not be settled.

 

[onedomino]

Imagine yourself as an Israeli.

Your nation is under attack by every fascist Islamic state on the planet. Your country is politically attacked by nations like France, who helped send 100,000 of your grandparents' generation to the death camps. Governments such as Syria and Iran do not recognize the right of your country to exist. They have sworn to destroy your nation, to erase it from the map, and replace it with an Islamic state. There are monstrous hate-filled terrorist organizations residing in Egypt, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia, that want to kill every Jew in your country. Every moment, of everyday, your life is threatened by psychopath fanatics who, if they could, would behead you after they killed your children.

Should your country open its borders to these people? Should your nation provide jobs, education, and housing for these people? Should the homeland of your ancestors provide the demanded "right of return" to these people?

The Palestinians had their chance with Clinton and Barak. In the end, Palestinians rejected concessions that gave them 95 percent of their stated demands. What they really want is the complete elimination of Israel. The state of Israel does not appear on the maps of the Middle-East taught to Palestinian school children.

The anti-Semitism that has ravaged Europe for 1000 years is burning again. It was just sixty years ago, that Germans, and other Europeans, murdered six million Jews. Road map or not, America, the “last best hope,” is all that that stands between Israel and the forces of hatred and chaos.

 

[NATO AIR]

Imagine yourself as an Israeli.

Your nation is under attack by every fascist Islamic state on the planet. Your country is politically attacked by nations like France, who helped send 100,000 of your grandparents' generation to the death camps. Governments such as Syria and Iran do not recognize the right of your country to exist. They have sworn to destroy your nation, to erase it from the map, and replace it with an Islamic state. There are monstrous hate-filled terrorist organizations residing in Egypt, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia, that want to kill every Jew in your country. Every moment, of everyday, your life is threatened by psychopath fanatics who, if they could, would behead you after they killed your children.

Should your country open its borders to these people? Should your nation provide jobs, education, and housing for these people? Should the homeland of your ancestors provide the demanded "right of return" to these people?

The Palestinians had their chance with Clinton and Barak. In the end, Palestinians rejected concessions that gave them 95 percent of their stated demands. What they really want is the complete elimination of Israel. The state of Israel does not appear on the maps of the Middle-East taught to Palestinian school children.

The anti-Semitism that has ravaged Europe for 1000 years is burning again. It was just sixty years ago, that Germans, and other Europeans, murdered six million Jews. Road map or not, America, the “last best hope,” is all that that stands between Israel and the forces of hatred and chaos.

i agree to an extent. however, saying the palestinians had their chance already is inaccurate and dangerous. arafat (not the palestinians) rejected the peace plan. palestinians are as yet incapable of truly holding their leaders accountable. the overwhelming majority of palestinians want peace (as do israelis) and both sides have their problem segments of the population.

for israel to try to deny the basic human rights and freedom of palestinians is dangerous and it is not a condition that can hold for long. israel will be forced to grow into an apartheid state if it continues along this route, because the israeli settlers have settled or are trying to settle in nearly every part of the disputed territories. how long before the palestinians are able to speak as a people to the israelis and to the world about their future is a very big mystery, but we must all hope that it is sooner rather than later. the fate of both peoples rests on this.

 

[onedomino]

i agree to an extent. however, saying the palestinians had their chance already is inaccurate and dangerous. arafat (not the palestinians) rejected the peace plan. palestinians are as yet incapable of truly holding their leaders accountable. the overwhelming majority of palestinians want peace (as do israelis) and both sides have their problem segments of the population.

for israel to try to deny the basic human rights and freedom of palestinians is dangerous and it is not a condition that can hold for long. israel will be forced to grow into an apartheid state if it continues along this route, because the israeli settlers have settled or are trying to settle in nearly every part of the disputed territories. how long before the palestinians are able to speak as a people to the israelis and to the world about their future is a very big mystery, but we must all hope that it is sooner rather than later. the fate of both peoples rests on this.

Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle-East. Since its creation more than 50 years ago, Palestinians terrorists and Arab nations (sometimes overtly and always covertly) have attacked Israel. Egyptians murdered their own leader, Sadat, because he made peace with Israel. If it is true that the majority of Palestinians want to negotiate peace with Israel, then where have they been for the past 50 years? It is apparent from Palestinian behavior that the majority does not accept the existence of Israel. Even if the Palestinian majority does accept the existence of Israel, they have been unable to impress that belief on their leaders.

In an awesome display of maladaptation (e.g., promoting the suicides of their children), the main Palestinian industry since the creation of Israel has been the production of one of the most virulent cultures of hatred the world has ever known. Palestinian school children are literally taught that Israel does not exist and that Jews must be destroyed. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/22/1061529332230.html http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&q=hatred+of+Jews+taught+in+Palestinian+schools&btnG=Search This culture of hatred is taught elsewhere in the Arab world; especially Saudi Arabia. Now the objects of hatred also include Americans. Remember that Palestinians danced in the streets after 911. This hatred is taught within a form of Islam that has been hijacked by fascist terrorists.

Palestinians do not seek accommodation with Israel. They seek its complete elimination. It would be very difficult to find an Israeli leader who agreed that the “overwhelming majority of Palestinians want peace” with Israel. The salient part of the preceding sentence is “with Israel.” Arafat did not accept the Clinton-Barak peace accords because he knew they would be rejected by ordinary Palestinians. The tragic reality is that Hamas is composed of ordinary Palestinians. It was not only Palestinian leaders such as Arafat who were unsatisfied with the peace accords. Consider this: if it was only up to Arafat, then it is probable there would have been acceptance of what was possible to negotiate in the Clinton-Barak peace accords. Why? Acceptance of the peace accords would have resulted in an independent Palestinian state with a seat in the UN. From there, the Palestinians would have had a comparatively secure platform from which to continue attacks on Israel. Instead, the peace accords were not accepted because Arafat knew they would be rejected by ordinary Palestinians and that as a result he would lose his power base. Clearly it would have been easier to continue the fight against Israel from an Independent Palestinian state, than amid the devastation of the Infitada.

I am not saying that every single Palestinian wants the destruction of Israel. However, the relevant factor is that enough Palestinians and Arabs have been brainwashed in a culture of hatred that separation of Jews from Arabs is the only way to prevent an indefinite future of Israelis being murdered by fanatics. Am I sanguine with such a situation? No, but there are no realistic alternatives. In those locations where Palestinians are separated from Israelis, they should of course have “basic human rights.” Israelis should withdraw from the "settlements" that are not buffer zones against terrorist attack. We may be two generations away from Palestinians being able to responsibly negotiate with Israelis. This will occur only when Palestinians (and others Arabs) stop teaching a culture of hatred to their children and seriously acknowledge that Israel has the right, as mandated by the UN, to exist. In any case, Israelis will never agree to a Palestinian “right of return” because the resulting demographics will cause Israel to cease to exist.

 

[NATO AIR]

does that give the israelis the right to take more palestinian land?

they're only adding to the long list of rightful grievances palestinians have.

i think terrorism is horrible, and there is no excuse for it.

the israelis are only trying to create facts on the ground (more israelis on more palestinian land) to be able to keep more land in whatever eventual peace deal is agreed upon.

this only makes the situation worse.

recall that in the aftermath of oslo, both sides seriously violated their agreements, not just the palestinians. both acted in very poor faith.

that is sadly, the real reason why the peace never happened.

 

[dilloduck]

Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle-East. Since its creation more than 50 years ago, Palestinians terrorists and Arab nations (sometimes overtly and always covertly) have attacked Israel. Egyptians murdered their own leader, Sadat, because he made peace with Israel. If it is true that the majority of Palestinians want to negotiate peace with Israel, then where have they been for the past 50 years? It is apparent from Palestinian behavior that the majority does not accept the existence of Israel. Even if the Palestinian majority does accept the existence of Israel, they have been unable to impress that belief on their leaders.

In an awesome display of maladaptation (e.g., promoting the suicides of their children), the main Palestinian industry since the creation of Israel has been the production of one of the most virulent cultures of hatred the world has ever known. Palestinian school children are literally taught that Israel does not exist and that Jews must be destroyed. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/22/1061529332230.html http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&q=hatred+of+Jews+taught+in+Palestinian+schools&btnG=Search This culture of hatred is taught elsewhere in the Arab world; especially Saudi Arabia. Now the objects of hatred also include Americans. Remember that Palestinians danced in the streets after 911. This hatred is taught within a form of Islam that has been hijacked by fascist terrorists.

Palestinians do not seek accommodation with Israel. They seek its complete elimination. It would be very difficult to find an Israeli leader who agreed that the “overwhelming majority of Palestinians want peace” with Israel. The salient part of the preceding sentence is “with Israel.” Arafat did not accept the Clinton-Barak peace accords because he knew they would be rejected by ordinary Palestinians. The tragic reality is that Hamas is composed of ordinary Palestinians. It was not only Palestinian leaders such as Arafat who were unsatisfied with the peace accords. Consider this: if it was only up to Arafat, then it is probable there would have been acceptance of what was possible to negotiate in the Clinton-Barak peace accords. Why? Acceptance of the peace accords would have resulted in an independent Palestinian state with a seat in the UN. From there, the Palestinians would have had a comparatively secure platform from which to continue attacks on Israel. Instead, the peace accords were not accepted because Arafat knew they would be rejected by ordinary Palestinians and that as a result he would lose his power base. Clearly it would have been easier to continue the fight against Israel from an Independent Palestinian state, than amid the devastation of the Infitada.

I am not saying that every single Palestinian wants the destruction of Israel. However, the relevant factor is that enough Palestinians and Arabs have been brainwashed in a culture of hatred that separation of Jews from Arabs is the only way to prevent an indefinite future of Israelis being murdered by fanatics. Am I sanguine with such a situation? No, but there are no realistic alternatives. In those locations where Palestinians are separated from Israelis, they should of course have “basic human rights.” Israelis should withdraw from the "settlements" that are not buffer zones against terrorist attack. We may be two generations away from Palestinians being able to responsibly negotiate with Israelis. This will occur only when Palestinians (and others Arabs) stop teaching a culture of hatred to their children and seriously acknowledge that Israel has the right, as mandated by the UN, to exist. In any case, Israelis will never agree to a Palestinian “right of return” because the resulting demographics will cause Israel to cease to exist.

Palestinians are indeed victims of thier own "leaders". Whether that be Arafat or Hamas terrorists, they have little voice in the matter. Israel is at odds with itself over how to proceed. Some are for making agreements in hopes of less terrorism while others scoff at there EVER being peace with the Arabs. There is NO INCENTIVE for either side to negotiate for a real peace when they both are willing to accept the loss of life as a price to pay for a "victory" that neither country can even define. The ego-satsfaction of "winning" out weighs everything in this dispute. As hard as it is for others to understand it is their "way of life"--they know no other !

 

[DKSuddeth]

sounds an awful lot like a moment in our very own history, though I'm sure most will disagree with me, but does anyone see that this is just like the 1830 Indian Removal Act?

 

[dilloduck]

sounds an awful lot like a moment in our very own history, though I'm sure most will disagree with me, but does anyone see that this is just like the 1830 Indian Removal Act?

Sure does---and we all know how that ended up!

 

[onedomino]

does that give the israelis the right to take more palestinian land?

they're only adding to the long list of rightful grievances palestinians have.

i think terrorism is horrible, and there is no excuse for it.

the israelis are only trying to create facts on the ground (more israelis on more palestinian land) to be able to keep more land in whatever eventual peace deal is agreed upon.

this only makes the situation worse.

recall that in the aftermath of oslo, both sides seriously violated their agreements, not just the palestinians. both acted in very poor faith.

that is sadly, the real reason why the peace never happened.

Well, we do not agree on this issue. But that’s OK, the debate is good.

NATO, if someone is trying to kill you, there is an inherent right of self-defense that means anything can be done to survive. It is war between the Israelis and Palestinians. Let's imagine being in the shoes of the Israelis:

It's a Friday night in AnyTown, USA. The kids are on Main Street at the Pizza shop and the dance bar across the street. Suddenly a Palestinian suicide bomber explodes himself in the middle of that scene killing 40 young people outright and maiming for life dozens of others. You are one of the fathers sitting home that night when you get the phone call that shatters you forever. The attack is one of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of similar atrocities suffered over the years. Does that give us the right to take Palestinian land? At the very least. Can you imagine the American reaction to such events in AnyTown, USA. We would obliterate the people responsible. The Palestinians would be lucky if we did not turn their territories into free fire zones. Would we bulldoze their houses? Yes, probably with B2 and F18 bulldozers.

No one wants innocent Palestinian people to suffer. But Israel is at war with the Palestinians and the fascist terrorist Arab governments surrounding it. In my opinion, rather than worry about how the Israelis are striking back at those committing atrocities against them, we should eliminate the 17,000 Syrian troops enabling Hamas and Hezbollah to use Lebanon as a platform for attacking Israel. Moreover, we should explain how unpleasant it will become for the Iranians if they do not stop sending money and weapons to Hezbollah. We should tell the Saudis that if they allow one of their “charities” to again pay money to the surviving members of a Palestinian homicide bomber that they will very deeply regret it.

 

[dilloduck]

Well, we do not agree on this issue. But that’s OK, the debate is good.

NATO, if someone is trying to kill you, there is an inherent right of self-defense that means anything can be done to survive. It is war between the Israelis and Palestinians. Let's imagine being in the shoes of the Israelis:

It's a Friday night in AnyTown, USA. The kids are on Main Street at the Pizza shop and the dance bar across the street. Suddenly a Palestinian suicide bomber explodes himself in the middle of that scene killing 40 young people outright and maiming for life dozens of others. You are one of the fathers sitting home that night when you get the phone call that shatters you forever. The attack is one of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of similar atrocities suffered over the years. Does that give us the right to take Palestinian land? At the very least. Can you imagine the American reaction to such events in AnyTown, USA. We would obliterate the people responsible. The Palestinians would be lucky if we did not turn their territories into free fire zones. Would we bulldoze their houses? Yes, probably with B2 and F18 bulldozers.

No one wants innocent Palestinian people to suffer. But Israel is at war with the Palestinians and the fascist terrorist Arab governments surrounding it. In my opinion, rather than worry about how the Israelis are striking back at those committing atrocities against them, we should eliminate the 17,000 Syria troops enabling Hamas and Hezbollah to use Lebanon as a platform for attacking Israel. Moreover, we should explain how unpleasant it will become for the Iranians if they do not stop sending money and weapons to Hezbollah. We should tell the Saudis that if they allow one of their “charities” to again pay money to the surviving members of a Palestinian homicide bomber that they will very deeply regret it.

Isn't that Israels responsibilty?

 

[onedomino]

Isn't that Israels responsibilty?

dillo, I think we are at war with Islamic fascism. 911 was one of the battles; Afghanistan and Iraq were others. The war is far from over. Israel is one of the few allies that we can depend on. I think we should actively help defend Israel.

 

[dilloduck]

dillo, I think we are at war with Islamic fascism. 911 was one of the battles; Afghanistan and Iraq were others. The was is far from over. Israel is one of the few allies that we can depend on. I think we should actively help defend Israel.

I agree with the war on fascism but also know that Israel is fully able to protect itself. Why do we have to take all the risks as far as thier internal struggles go?

 

[onedomino]

I agree with the war on fascism but also know that Israel is fully able to protect itself. Why do we have to take all the risks as far as thier internal struggles go?

You are right, dillo. We should not take all the risks, but because they are one of our best allies, and the only democracy in the Middle-East, we should help them in every way reasonable. What is reasonable? Well that's up for discussion and debate. One thing is clear: we and the Israelis will be on the winning side in the war against Islamic fascism. The Palestinians, and current Arab dictatorships will not be. I support President Bush's goal of introducing democracy throughout the Middle-East.

 

[dilloduck]

You are right, dillon. We should not take all the risks, but because they are one of our best allies, and the only democracy in the Middle-East, we should help them in every way resonable. What is reasonable, well that's up for discussion and debate. One thing is clear: we and the Israelis will be on the winning side in the war against Islamic fascism. The Palestinians, and current Arab dictatorships will not be. I support President Bush's goal of introducing democracy throughout the Middle-East.

Agreed