Settlements only "illegal" for Jews

[Shusha]

We, as a wealthy nation, owe it to the less fortunate ...

I think this may be true for a nation such as the US. But for a vulnerable nation like Israel? Not so much.

 

[Coyote]

We, as a wealthy nation, owe it to the less fortunate ...

I think this may be true for a nation such as the US. But for a vulnerable nation like Israel? Not so much.

I agree - I'm specifically referring to the US. We are large and wealthy. Israel is very small.

 

[flacaltenn]

If settlements in AREA C are legal they should "legal" for all Israelis and not just Jews to initiate, get permits for and receive infrastructure support. A lot of inequality there.

To correct your error here, ALL Israeli citizens, by law, are treated equally. No records on ethnic or religious background are collected or kept in the building application process, as it is illegal to ask these questions.

Well..again...why do we seeJewish outpostsand settlements being built but but no Arab ones?

The law means nothing if it is not followed.

Where'd you get this idea? THere's Pali expansion in Area C.. And with some perserverance, they even get utility connections from Israel to run them with electricity and water... I've shown examples of UPSCALE brand new developments that are equal to upper middle class in the US...

You seem to forget a lot of what you've read in here.... Do you need links???

 

[Coyote]

Sushu posted a good article on that, which, in my mind seems to make two points: Israel is occupying certain territory and building settlements. Other countries have done the same, but only Israel (and Russia) is condemned for it. They should ALL be equally condemned don't you think?

Thank you.

(Though I have quarrels with your first statement.)

I think the two points in the article are:

1. There is a different objective set of "laws" which are applied to Israel, yet no other country.
2. Other countries are actively moving settlers into disputed or foreign territory and are not condemned for it, while Israel is.

Yes. There is a lot less media on those other conflicts with the exception of Russia - that has been condemned. The other aren't as well known. In my mind it's all the same - illegal in occupied territory.

 

[Coyote]

If settlements in AREA C are legal they should "legal" for all Israelis and not just Jews to initiate, get permits for and receive infrastructure support. A lot of inequality there.

To correct your error here, ALL Israeli citizens, by law, are treated equally. No records on ethnic or religious background are collected or kept in the building application process, as it is illegal to ask these questions.

Well..again...why do we seeJewish outpostsand settlements being built but but no Arab ones?

The law means nothing if it is not followed.

Where'd you get this idea? THere's Pali expansion in Area C.. And with some perserverance, they even get utility connections from Israel to run them with electricity and water... I've shown examples of UPSCALE brand new developments that are equal to upper middle class in the US...

You seem to forget a lot of what you've read in here.... Do you need links???

Sure.

I only remember ONE upscale development project that ran into numerous roadblocks before finally being built.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Why did Irish leave Ireland? Italians, Italy? Poles, Poland? Because they were unhappy. "Palestinians" bitch nonstop. Just leave. There are 50+ Islamist nations out there. Pick one. My parent left their homeland because they were unhappy. People leave their homeland frequently. Why are Mexicans leaving Mexico and coming here? Your argument is odd.

Did they want to leave? The Irish were starving.

You have a bizarre idea that all nations of the same religion are culturally the same.

Is Sweden like Italy?
Is Venezuela like France?

They were unhappy. Jews in Europe were persecuted so they left. Jews in the Middle East were and still are banned from living in countries run by Islamic dictatorships. So they left. Residents of Gaza and the WB are unhappy. They should leave or STFU.

Umh...no...they didn't "leave". They were FORCED to leave, many of them unwillingly.

Untrue. They came here for a better life. Who is forcing illegals to come here now? "Palestinians" need to leave. Or STFU. How do you see the conflict ending?

Jews were expelled from Arab countries. Expulsion is not voluntary.

Yes and they settled in Israel and people are still bugging them. Leave them in peace.

 

[Shusha]

Arabs (Palestine)tend to get applauded for building in Area C (disputed territory) while Israel gets condemned.

 

[flacaltenn]

If settlements in AREA C are legal they should "legal" for all Israelis and not just Jews to initiate, get permits for and receive infrastructure support. A lot of inequality there.

To correct your error here, ALL Israeli citizens, by law, are treated equally. No records on ethnic or religious background are collected or kept in the building application process, as it is illegal to ask these questions.

Well..again...why do we seeJewish outpostsand settlements being built but but no Arab ones?

The law means nothing if it is not followed.

Where'd you get this idea? THere's Pali expansion in Area C.. And with some perserverance, they even get utility connections from Israel to run them with electricity and water... I've shown examples of UPSCALE brand new developments that are equal to upper middle class in the US...

You seem to forget a lot of what you've read in here.... Do you need links???

Sure.

I only remember ONE upscale development project that ran into numerous roadblocks before finally being built.

That's more than Palestinians get in the camps in Lebanon or Jordan today.. More than they get in the Egyptian Sinai... And there ARE others... When folks tell you that ANY Israeli citizen, including Arabs and Christians have the same rights to development -- this is important.. Because then -- there's no argument for Israeli Jews being anti Arab or Christian..

The problem is -- there's no real PAuthority anymore.. Not even to evenly distribute the International foreign aid to pay the electric or water bills to Israel... But despite that, developments are POSSIBLE in area C and they ARE being done.... Even the major Pali cities can't cooperate with each other for infrastructure development like power generation and roads...

That's the reason I concluded that Palestinian "autonomy" needs be on a "City scale" and NOT on a country scale with anything like a powerful central Western govt....

 

[Coyote]

Consolidating Annexation of Area C, Part 1: Israel Issues Permits for 715 Palestinian Structures
On July 30th, in an exceedingly rare move, the Israeli Cabinet unanimously approved the issuance of building permits for 715 Palestinian structures in Area C of the West Bank. How rare? Between 2009 and 2016 Israel issued only 66 building permits to Palestinians in Area C (more than offset by demolitions — over the past 2 years alone, Israel has demolished at least 400 Palestinian structures in Area C because they were built without the impossible to obtain Israeli permits).

The approval of even this comparatively small number of permits for Palestinians angered Israeli settlers and their supporters. They expressed outrage at what they characterized as Israeli government “support” for any Palestinian presence in Area C, the 60% of the West Bank settlers have been pressuring the government to unilaterally annex.

Statements made around the approval, however, make clear that the decision to issue the permits for Palestinian construction is not a concession or gift to the Palestinians. One Israeli security cabinet member who voted for the plan, far-right-wing Transportation Minister Bezalel Smotrich (Tkuma), stated in a Facebook post that Israel’s decision to issue the permits actually advances annexation, writing:

“In the last ten years, since the launch of the Fayyad program, the Arab vision of establishing a terrorist state in Area C has been fulfilled in practice. An area under full Israeli security and civil responsibility.

For the first time, the State of Israel will make sure that in Area C, there will only be construction for the Arabs who were original residents of the area since 1994 and not Arabs who came later from Areas A and B.

For the first time, the State of Israel will determine in a clear and unmistakable manner that original inhabitants of the area will be able to build and develop only in places that do not harm the settlement enterprise and security, and do not create territorial contiguity or a de facto Palestinian state. Places that do not serve the national interests of the Arabs, rather the national strategic interests of the State of Israel.

For the first time ever, the State of Israel will implement its sovereignty over the entire territory and take responsibility for what happens inside it. Gone are the days of construction plans pushed by the PA that serve its interests. For the first time, the State of Israel will create a tool basket for real enforcement that will be enacted to neutralize the Palestinian takeover plan.” ...​

66 building permits for Palestinians in Area C in a 7 year period.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Arabs (Palestine)tend to get applauded for building in Area C (disputed territory) while Israel gets condemned.

….because those who practice Judenrein automatically consider the land as Arab land -- they refer to it as THEIR land. .

The same people promoting this view would be peeing all over themselves if the reverse were true and Israel adopted the same attitude instead of providing its Arab inhabitants with more rights than they enjoy in any Arab country.

 

[Coyote]

If settlements in AREA C are legal they should "legal" for all Israelis and not just Jews to initiate, get permits for and receive infrastructure support. A lot of inequality there.

To correct your error here, ALL Israeli citizens, by law, are treated equally. No records on ethnic or religious background are collected or kept in the building application process, as it is illegal to ask these questions.

Well..again...why do we seeJewish outpostsand settlements being built but but no Arab ones?

The law means nothing if it is not followed.

Where'd you get this idea? THere's Pali expansion in Area C.. And with some perserverance, they even get utility connections from Israel to run them with electricity and water... I've shown examples of UPSCALE brand new developments that are equal to upper middle class in the US...

You seem to forget a lot of what you've read in here.... Do you need links???

Sure.

I only remember ONE upscale development project that ran into numerous roadblocks before finally being built.

That's more than Palestinians get in the camps in Lebanon or Jordan today.. More than they get in the Egyptian Sinai... And there ARE others... When folks tell you that ANY Israeli citizen, including Arabs and Christians have the same rights to development -- this is important.. Because then -- there's no argument for Israeli Jews being anti Arab or Christian..

The problem is -- there's no real PAuthority anymore.. Not even to evenly distribute the International foreign aid to pay the electric or water bills to Israel... But despite that, developments are POSSIBLE in area C and they ARE being done.... Even the major Pali cities can't cooperate with each other for infrastructure development like power generation and roads...

That's the reason I concluded that Palestinian "autonomy" needs be on a "City scale" and NOT on a country scale with anything like a powerful central Western govt....

But DO THEY have the same rights? Do the in reality? Sure - it's great when the law says they do...but if the law is just words on paper, then do they have the same rights?

Note - I do not disagree on the disorder that characterizes the PA, but I do disagree on your claim that they have the same rights to build in Area C. That seems not translate into actual action.

 

[Coyote]

Arabs (Palestine)tend to get applauded for building in Area C (disputed territory) while Israel gets condemned.

I haven't noticed any applauding.

 

[flacaltenn]

Arabs (Palestine)tend to get applauded for building in Area C (disputed territory) while Israel gets condemned.

Well Palis should be applauded.. Because Israel makes them work for it.. And it's to Israel's benefit to PROMOTE a certain level of expansion around the major Pali cities..

About time to formulate a new solution for sharing Area C.. Before the pressures get too great for the limited amount of land and resources..

You see Israel is not COMFORTABLE with putting up prison walls around Palestinian "camps" like in Lebanon and prefers to show that the Palis in Israel are not helpless refugees... That respect goes a long way to the reason that there was an attempt to have a PAuthority that would work with Israel to provide security and development access for those areas...

 

[flacaltenn]

But DO THEY have the same rights? Do the in reality? Sure - it's great when the law says they do...but if the law is just words on paper, then do they have the same rights?

You didn't read that properly... I said members told you that Israeli CITIZENS have those rights whether they are Jewish, Arab Muslim or Christian.. Obviously the Palis are NOT citizens, nor do they want to be...

But the point was -- it's not Arab or Muslim discrimination that drives this dispute about development...

 

[flacaltenn]

Consolidating Annexation of Area C, Part 1: Israel Issues Permits for 715 Palestinian Structures
On July 30th, in an exceedingly rare move, the Israeli Cabinet unanimously approved the issuance of building permits for 715 Palestinian structures in Area C of the West Bank. How rare? Between 2009 and 2016 Israel issued only 66 building permits to Palestinians in Area C (more than offset by demolitions — over the past 2 years alone, Israel has demolished at least 400 Palestinian structures in Area C because they were built without the impossible to obtain Israeli permits).

The approval of even this comparatively small number of permits for Palestinians angered Israeli settlers and their supporters. They expressed outrage at what they characterized as Israeli government “support” for any Palestinian presence in Area C, the 60% of the West Bank settlers have been pressuring the government to unilaterally annex.

Statements made around the approval, however, make clear that the decision to issue the permits for Palestinian construction is not a concession or gift to the Palestinians. One Israeli security cabinet member who voted for the plan, far-right-wing Transportation Minister Bezalel Smotrich (Tkuma), stated in a Facebook post that Israel’s decision to issue the permits actually advances annexation, writing:

“In the last ten years, since the launch of the Fayyad program, the Arab vision of establishing a terrorist state in Area C has been fulfilled in practice. An area under full Israeli security and civil responsibility.

For the first time, the State of Israel will make sure that in Area C, there will only be construction for the Arabs who were original residents of the area since 1994 and not Arabs who came later from Areas A and B.

For the first time, the State of Israel will determine in a clear and unmistakable manner that original inhabitants of the area will be able to build and develop only in places that do not harm the settlement enterprise and security, and do not create territorial contiguity or a de facto Palestinian state. Places that do not serve the national interests of the Arabs, rather the national strategic interests of the State of Israel.

For the first time ever, the State of Israel will implement its sovereignty over the entire territory and take responsibility for what happens inside it. Gone are the days of construction plans pushed by the PA that serve its interests. For the first time, the State of Israel will create a tool basket for real enforcement that will be enacted to neutralize the Palestinian takeover plan.” ...​

66 building permits for Palestinians in Area C in a 7 year period.

Those are facts without an understanding of the data.. And much of it is dated... The 2 NEW LARGE Pali cities constructed from SCRATCH have probably more than a THOUSAND apartments or condos just within those TWO PERMITTED locations..

What you're missing here is the whole area of "Urban Planning and Zoning" Even in the fucking USof A cities TAKE people land and bring the bulldozers... It's called "eminent domain" and it's done sometimes for spite so that a corporation can have a headquarters - or a freeway exit can be built.. OR because an area NEEDS more dense "low cost housing"...

So the Pali City states are NOT BIG on urban planning.. And LAND is very rare in Area C and SOMEONE has to decide how much infrastructure and housing is required... If Israel sees a plan for new upscale development with it's own schools, sports and shopping centers and a LOT of high density housing --- they are FAR MORE LIKELY to support it..

Someone has to make those decisions..

So with maybe a 1000 very liveable and nice units recently built on NEW LAND BY PALIS AND FOR PALIS -- you wasted a lot of facts... I'll go dig up the Promo video for those new cities...

 

[Coyote]

Consolidating Annexation of Area C, Part 1: Israel Issues Permits for 715 Palestinian Structures
On July 30th, in an exceedingly rare move, the Israeli Cabinet unanimously approved the issuance of building permits for 715 Palestinian structures in Area C of the West Bank. How rare? Between 2009 and 2016 Israel issued only 66 building permits to Palestinians in Area C (more than offset by demolitions — over the past 2 years alone, Israel has demolished at least 400 Palestinian structures in Area C because they were built without the impossible to obtain Israeli permits).

The approval of even this comparatively small number of permits for Palestinians angered Israeli settlers and their supporters. They expressed outrage at what they characterized as Israeli government “support” for any Palestinian presence in Area C, the 60% of the West Bank settlers have been pressuring the government to unilaterally annex.

Statements made around the approval, however, make clear that the decision to issue the permits for Palestinian construction is not a concession or gift to the Palestinians. One Israeli security cabinet member who voted for the plan, far-right-wing Transportation Minister Bezalel Smotrich (Tkuma), stated in a Facebook post that Israel’s decision to issue the permits actually advances annexation, writing:

“In the last ten years, since the launch of the Fayyad program, the Arab vision of establishing a terrorist state in Area C has been fulfilled in practice. An area under full Israeli security and civil responsibility.

For the first time, the State of Israel will make sure that in Area C, there will only be construction for the Arabs who were original residents of the area since 1994 and not Arabs who came later from Areas A and B.

For the first time, the State of Israel will determine in a clear and unmistakable manner that original inhabitants of the area will be able to build and develop only in places that do not harm the settlement enterprise and security, and do not create territorial contiguity or a de facto Palestinian state. Places that do not serve the national interests of the Arabs, rather the national strategic interests of the State of Israel.

For the first time ever, the State of Israel will implement its sovereignty over the entire territory and take responsibility for what happens inside it. Gone are the days of construction plans pushed by the PA that serve its interests. For the first time, the State of Israel will create a tool basket for real enforcement that will be enacted to neutralize the Palestinian takeover plan.” ...​

66 building permits for Palestinians in Area C in a 7 year period.

Those are facts without an understanding of the data.. And much of it is dated... The 2 NEW LARGE Pali cities constructed from SCRATCH have probably more than a THOUSAND apartments or condos just within those TWO PERMITTED locations..

What you're missing here is the whole area of "Urban Planning and Zoning" Even in the fucking USof A cities TAKE people land and bring the bulldozers... It's called "eminent domain" and it's done sometimes for spite so that a corporation can have a headquarters - or a freeway exit can be built.. OR because an area NEEDS more dense "low cost housing"...

So the Pali City states are NOT BIG on urban planning.. And LAND is very rare in Area C and SOMEONE has to decide how much infrastructure and housing is required... If Israel sees a plan for new upscale development with it's own schools, sports and shopping centers and a LOT of high density housing --- they are FAR MORE LIKELY to support it..

Someone has to make those decisions..

So with maybe a 1000 very liveable and nice units recently built on NEW LAND BY PALIS AND FOR PALIS -- you wasted a lot of facts... I'll go dig up the Promo video for those new cities...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...i-occupation-turns-50/?utm_term=.3bbd73346835

This one?

 

[flacaltenn]

But DO THEY have the same rights? Do the in reality? Sure - it's great when the law says they do...but if the law is just words on paper, then do they have the same rights?

Yes they do... Last time I checked there were 12 Arab members of the Knesset.. And LOTS of Arabs volunteering to work with IDF despite the fact they are NOT REQUIRED to.,.. In fact, some of that help is VITAL to translating and gathering intelligence..

Not saying there aren't some bigots in Israel.. Not saying there is no friction.. But compared to "diversity" in America, it comes about seemingly easier in Israel...

 

[flacaltenn]

Consolidating Annexation of Area C, Part 1: Israel Issues Permits for 715 Palestinian Structures
On July 30th, in an exceedingly rare move, the Israeli Cabinet unanimously approved the issuance of building permits for 715 Palestinian structures in Area C of the West Bank. How rare? Between 2009 and 2016 Israel issued only 66 building permits to Palestinians in Area C (more than offset by demolitions — over the past 2 years alone, Israel has demolished at least 400 Palestinian structures in Area C because they were built without the impossible to obtain Israeli permits).

The approval of even this comparatively small number of permits for Palestinians angered Israeli settlers and their supporters. They expressed outrage at what they characterized as Israeli government “support” for any Palestinian presence in Area C, the 60% of the West Bank settlers have been pressuring the government to unilaterally annex.

Statements made around the approval, however, make clear that the decision to issue the permits for Palestinian construction is not a concession or gift to the Palestinians. One Israeli security cabinet member who voted for the plan, far-right-wing Transportation Minister Bezalel Smotrich (Tkuma), stated in a Facebook post that Israel’s decision to issue the permits actually advances annexation, writing:

“In the last ten years, since the launch of the Fayyad program, the Arab vision of establishing a terrorist state in Area C has been fulfilled in practice. An area under full Israeli security and civil responsibility.

For the first time, the State of Israel will make sure that in Area C, there will only be construction for the Arabs who were original residents of the area since 1994 and not Arabs who came later from Areas A and B.

For the first time, the State of Israel will determine in a clear and unmistakable manner that original inhabitants of the area will be able to build and develop only in places that do not harm the settlement enterprise and security, and do not create territorial contiguity or a de facto Palestinian state. Places that do not serve the national interests of the Arabs, rather the national strategic interests of the State of Israel.

For the first time ever, the State of Israel will implement its sovereignty over the entire territory and take responsibility for what happens inside it. Gone are the days of construction plans pushed by the PA that serve its interests. For the first time, the State of Israel will create a tool basket for real enforcement that will be enacted to neutralize the Palestinian takeover plan.” ...​

66 building permits for Palestinians in Area C in a 7 year period.

Those are facts without an understanding of the data.. And much of it is dated... The 2 NEW LARGE Pali cities constructed from SCRATCH have probably more than a THOUSAND apartments or condos just within those TWO PERMITTED locations..

What you're missing here is the whole area of "Urban Planning and Zoning" Even in the fucking USof A cities TAKE people land and bring the bulldozers... It's called "eminent domain" and it's done sometimes for spite so that a corporation can have a headquarters - or a freeway exit can be built.. OR because an area NEEDS more dense "low cost housing"...

So the Pali City states are NOT BIG on urban planning.. And LAND is very rare in Area C and SOMEONE has to decide how much infrastructure and housing is required... If Israel sees a plan for new upscale development with it's own schools, sports and shopping centers and a LOT of high density housing --- they are FAR MORE LIKELY to support it..

Someone has to make those decisions..

So with maybe a 1000 very liveable and nice units recently built on NEW LAND BY PALIS AND FOR PALIS -- you wasted a lot of facts... I'll go dig up the Promo video for those new cities...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...i-occupation-turns-50/?utm_term=.3bbd73346835

This one?

Yeah that's the upscale one.. A COMPLETE city on a hill... Read it carefully... There's a lot of pride from the Pali developers...

If Palestinians cannot get permission to spend their money in Israeli malls, Masri says, let them shop in Rawabi. That is how you build a state.

“And why not?” he said. “We’ve earned it.”

So that's already close to the thousand units I remember in just past few years..

Here's the deal... You do NEITHER SIDE any good at all returning the land to how it WAS 200 or even 80 years ago.. NEITHER SIDE wants ramshackle houses that take up valuable land when the Pali population itself is now over 2.5 Million...

Returning to the past LAND USE in that area would make BOTH sides angry... It's time to come into the 21st century... Not try to restore a museum aged dream.... There's not enough land to SUPPORT EITHER side with your simple off the cuff declaration of "just returning it to its native state"...

Sometimes "figuring it out" is more informative than a slightly used "fact dump"....

Makes you WORK for really understanding the issues...

 

[flacaltenn]

God save us all... I don't know if it's real or not,, but just look at the illustration of their amphitheater in Rawabi.. Larger than life picture of ELVIS freaking PRESLEY on the wall...

Now I've seen everything.. I'm warming up to the Palis if they adore Elvis... Maybe it was just for the WashPo... But there ya go.. As surreal as it gets... So much for "Arab freedom" and Arab Springs. Looks like it's blooming in the West Bank.. Try that trick in Libya or Saudi or Oman...

Yasser Arafat would be gagging on his head scarf....

At the bottom of the article that Coyote retrieved...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...i-occupation-turns-50/?utm_term=.3bbd73346835

 

[flacaltenn]

This article on "New Pali settlement of Rawabi is a GREAT read... Neighboring Israeli settlement of Ateret has to look up the hill at this fantastic project and huge Palestinian flag... But the settlers in Ateret (the Jewish town) have just a few "technical" concerns.. Pretty much resigned to their "lower status"... LOL...

Rawabi: Take a look inside the city of Palestinians’ dreams

With a photographer and interpreter in tow on a sunny and unusually warm afternoon, I visited the settlement in late February. It's well known that the relationship between Ateret and Rawabi is strained, even if the Israelis never visit Rawabi and the Rawabians never visit Ateret. In 2010, as Rawabi's construction was gearing up, the two sides clashed in the valley. Many of the settlers have since replaced the glass windshields on their cars with plastic ones that won't shatter when rocks hurled by Palestinians hit. (Such measures are not generally available to Palestinians.)

I asked several Ateret residents how they felt living, almost literally, in the shadow of Rawabi. One settler, who declined to give his name, said he didn't have a big problem with it. "Personally, it does not make me angry, though it makes me a little bothered that they take up the beautiful view," he says.

Another settler, Simcha Shumacher, 33, the CEO of a small Israeli branding and design company and a father of six, says he fears the roads around Ateret and Rawabi, already inadequate, will get absolutely plugged once Rawabi fills up. Who would pay for the roads, I ask. "This is Israel's property," he says without hesitation. "Israel has to fix it."

By design or accident, Ateret is playing an expanding role in the battle of the hilltops. As Rawabi gets bigger, so does Ateret; another 50 homes are soon to be built.


If "blocking their view" and "traffic" is their main concern, maybe there's a solution...