Separating anti-Semitism from Anti-Zionism

[Humanity]

I have a few issues with this article...

I have many Semite friends so cannot really call myself anti-semitic

I believe that Jews have a right, as does everyone have a right, to a 'homeland' so cannot really call myself anti-zionist

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist zionists, Israeli government for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist muslims, Hamas for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

So, what's with this article?

It goes some way, not far enough, perhaps not clearly enough in my opinion, in an attempt to show that there really is a difference between anti-semitic and anti-zionist...

In the same way that there is a difference between race and religion... Though most people prefer to muddy the waters by mixing the two, normally to benefit their own argument!

Separating anti-Semitism from Anti-Zionism

 

[montelatici]

It is a reasoned approach, as best might be expected by a party (figuratively speaking) to the conflict.

 

[Penelope]

Its rather simple, one is secular people who see Judaism as their culture (Zionist) and their God is money and they don't like the religious who actually practice Judaism due to the fact they wont fight and most don't have time to work due to hours of studying the Torah , and both of them contain radicals and zealots. Zionist are also those who worship all of them called Jews and kiss their feet for a name in society, power, money, and prestige, and evangelicals who think they are to be worshipped.

 

[Elvis Obama]

What's with this article is that it's a reflection of bizarre mindset. A mindset that creates false equivalencies and apportions blame in a one-sided fashion.

There is no blame. It is raw nature that's at work. A scenario that has played out over and over again throughout history. A clash of civilizations. There is a great deal of effort made to characterize the conflict differently. To ignore the social and cultural differences which have made compromise impossible. Why?

Has Israel transgressed? Absolutely. They won, though. Throughout their history they have won. They won statehood and they've won several direct military confrontations. The Arabs, quite naturally, have switched their tactics to terrorism and to manipulating public opinion, which they have succeeded in doing. A true nation would compromise, would recognize defeat and offer unconditional surrender. There are no true nations in the region, Israel aside. Their motives are not the motives of modern nations, their motives are far more ancient. They are tribal and religious. It's like the Native Americans negotiating with the settlers to sell Manhattan Island.

So the victories of the Israelis have brought them to the brink of defeat, because public opinion, like the one expressed in this article, has forgotten just what lies at the heart of this conflict.

 

[Shusha]

Its rather simple, one is secular people who see Judaism as their culture (Zionist) and their God is money and they don't like the religious who actually practice Judaism due to the fact they wont fight and most don't have time to work due to hours of studying the Torah , and both of them contain radicals and zealots. Zionist are also those who worship all of them called Jews and kiss their feet for a name in society, power, money, and prestige, and evangelicals who think they are to be worshipped.

So this is anti-semitism.

 

[Penelope]

Right the Palestinians should just lie down die, because the Zionist , secular Europeans thought and think they have some Godly right to it, of course we all know its an excuse they use and are using. Even the PM's expected a fight, they just didn't think that the Palestinians would last this long.

 

[Humanity]

What's with this article is that it's a reflection of bizarre mindset. A mindset that creates false equivalencies and apportions blame in a one-sided fashion.

There is no blame. It is raw nature that's at work. A scenario that has played out over and over again throughout history. A clash of civilizations. There is a great deal of effort made to characterize the conflict differently. To ignore the social and cultural differences which have made compromise impossible. Why?

Has Israel transgressed? Absolutely. They won, though. Throughout their history they have won. They won statehood and they've won several direct military confrontations. The Arabs, quite naturally, have switched their tactics to terrorism and to manipulating public opinion, which they have succeeded in doing. A true nation would compromise, would recognize defeat and offer unconditional surrender. There are no true nations in the region, Israel aside. Their motives are not the motives of modern nations, their motives are far more ancient. They are tribal and religious. It's like the Native Americans negotiating with the settlers to sell Manhattan Island.

So the victories of the Israelis have brought them to the brink of defeat, because public opinion, like the one expressed in this article, has forgotten just what lies at the heart of this conflict.

You post is slightly off topic but would make an interesting new discussion...

 

[Penelope]

Its rather simple, one is secular people who see Judaism as their culture (Zionist) and their God is money and they don't like the religious who actually practice Judaism due to the fact they wont fight and most don't have time to work due to hours of studying the Torah , and both of them contain radicals and zealots. Zionist are also those who worship all of them called Jews and kiss their feet for a name in society, power, money, and prestige, and evangelicals who think they are to be worshipped.

Sorry Penelope...

That has to be the most ridiculous, convoluted "rather simple" comment EVER!

Do you to try and make a clearer comment or just leave it that you simply hate EVERYTHING... Jews, Zionists and Israel?

I never said that, I merely stated who a Zionist is and who a Jew is. Its rather simple. Seems you want the difference between anti Zionism and anit semetic, well first one needs to know who they are.

 

[Humanity]

Its rather simple, one is secular people who see Judaism as their culture (Zionist) and their God is money and they don't like the religious who actually practice Judaism due to the fact they wont fight and most don't have time to work due to hours of studying the Torah , and both of them contain radicals and zealots. Zionist are also those who worship all of them called Jews and kiss their feet for a name in society, power, money, and prestige, and evangelicals who think they are to be worshipped.

So this is anti-semitism.

Anti-semitism, Anti-Zionism...

And rather confused!

 

[Shusha]

I never said that, I merely stated who a Zionist is and who a Jew is. Its rather simple. Seems you want the difference between anti Zionism and anit semetic, well first one needs to know who they are.

The distinction between a Zionist and a Jew is non-existent. Zionism is an integral part of being Jewish. All Jews are Zionists. By "Zionist", I mean one who holds the belief that the Jewish people have a homeland and wish to return to the live in that homeland and re-constitute their self-determination there. Some of the very religious believe that this is not to occur until certain events have come to pass. Others believe it is up to us to rebuild this homeland.

Anyone who claims to be anti-Zionist is either against the rights of ALL people to return to their homeland and establish self-determination there, or they are against the rights of only ONE people to do this. If they are against only the rights of the one people -- they are expressing anti-semitism.

All attempts to associate "Zionists" with violence, murder, hate, etc are, at their root, anti-semitism. Any use of standard anti-semitic tropes (world domination, media control, love of money, greed, dishonesty, stiff-neckedness, blood libel, murdering JC or prophets, etc, etc) is anti-semitism.

 

[Penelope]

You might want to talk and read about true torah jews. Most Jews in Israel are secular There is a big difference. During the Russia revolution the athesist Jews tried to destroy all religion, EO and Judaism.

They have no right to Palestine, unless you take the bible of which they don't even believe. The only one that gave them the right was them. They stole Palestine.

If not like the Puritans who ventured across the ocean to parts unseen, this was a deliberate plan to rid the population of Palestine and make it a Zionist secular country.

 

[Humanity]

I never said that, I merely stated who a Zionist is and who a Jew is. Its rather simple. Seems you want the difference between anti Zionism and anit semetic, well first one needs to know who they are.

The distinction between a Zionist and a Jew is non-existent. Zionism is an integral part of being Jewish. All Jews are Zionists. By "Zionist", I mean one who holds the belief that the Jewish people have a homeland and wish to return to the live in that homeland and re-constitute their self-determination there. Some of the very religious believe that this is not to occur until certain events have come to pass. Others believe it is up to us to rebuild this homeland.

Anyone who claims to be anti-Zionist is either against the rights of ALL people to return to their homeland and establish self-determination there, or they are against the rights of only ONE people to do this. If they are against only the rights of the one people -- they are expressing anti-semitism.

All attempts to associate "Zionists" with violence, murder, hate, etc are, at their root, anti-semitism. Any use of standard anti-semitic tropes (world domination, media control, love of money, greed, dishonesty, stiff-neckedness, blood libel, murdering JC or prophets, etc, etc) is anti-semitism.

Hang on a second....

"Some of the very religious believe that this is not to occur until certain events have come to pass."...

Does that make them anti-semitic, anti-zionist?

"Anyone who claims to be anti-Zionist is either against the rights of ALL people to return to their homeland and establish self-determination "

You mean ALL people or JUST Jews?

"they are against the rights of only ONE people to do this. If they are against only the rights of the one people -- they are expressing anti-semitism."

Expressing anti-semitism, since the term was hijacked by the zionists, can ONLY relate to Jews... Despite the fact that it is not only Jews who are Semites!

"All attempts to associate "Zionists" with violence, murder, hate, etc are, at their root, anti-semitism."

Never heard of Stern Gang, Igrun, Netanyahu? This last comment is historically incorrect...

Pointing out that someone is violent, a murderer, full of hatred who HAPPENS to be a zionist does NOT make you anti-semitic!

 

[Boston1]

Maybe some of you would benefit by actually knowing what Zionism is

Zi·on·ism
ˈzīəˌnizəm/
noun

1. a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.
   
   
   
   

 

[Shusha]

"All attempts to associate "Zionists" with violence, murder, hate, etc are, at their root, anti-semitism."

Never heard of Stern Gang, Igrun, Netanyahu? This last comment is historically incorrect...

Pointing out that someone is violent, a murderer, full of hatred who HAPPENS to be a zionist does NOT make you anti-semitic!

But be aware of the language you are using here:

pointing out that someone is violent, a murderer and full of hatred (preferrably by pointing out their actual words or deeds) is neither anti-zionist nor anti-semitic. One would have to wonder why, though, in the course of the conversation, the fact that they were Zionist or Jewish was brought up, if not to suggest the entire group was violent, murderous or hateful or held ideologies which are violent, murderous or hateful.

It is this association with the group which suggests anti-semtism.

 

[flacaltenn]

The Zionist ship has really sailed decades ago.. And as far as Jews being split over the rationale for a "homeland" -- that is truly a non-issue today within the religion.

Zionism was an international "nationalist movement" that pretty much accomplished their goal 50 years ago. There are virtually no Jews today that want Israel to be packed into crates and moved elsewhere.

The folks that NEED a nationalist movement TODAY are the Palis. And for some damn reason -- they don't recognize how many times they've ruined that road to self-determination..

Ask me if I'm a Zionist and I'd have to think REAL HARD as to how that would be interpreted by folks who MISUSE the term constantly.. The Jews living in Israel ain't Zionists silly wabbits -- they are ISRAELIS..

 

[Humanity]

"All attempts to associate "Zionists" with violence, murder, hate, etc are, at their root, anti-semitism."

Never heard of Stern Gang, Igrun, Netanyahu? This last comment is historically incorrect...

Pointing out that someone is violent, a murderer, full of hatred who HAPPENS to be a zionist does NOT make you anti-semitic!

But be aware of the language you are using here:

pointing out that someone is violent, a murderer and full of hatred (preferrably by pointing out their actual words or deeds) is neither anti-zionist nor anti-semitic. One would have to wonder why, though, in the course of the conversation, the fact that they were Zionist or Jewish was brought up, if not to suggest the entire group was violent, murderous or hateful or held ideologies which are violent, murderous or hateful.

It is this association with the group which suggests anti-semtism.

Semantics...

However, yes, generalisation COULD be considered anti-semitic IF that phrase included "zionists"...

That applies to not ONLY zionists... Stating that ALL Palestinians are terrorists clearly falls into that generalisation...

It is that kind of generalisation that seems to cause a lot of 'debate'(?) on this forum.

 

[Boston1]

The goal doesn't seem to be justice or statehood. Gaza has sat in limbo ever since the Israeli withdrawal and they don't seem to be interested in a state. Jordan is a palestinian state and yet most palestinians today seem to buy into the idea that they don't have a state or that Israel is somehow responsible for creating a state for them.

And now we're back to the question of if hating the people who believe in the only Jewish state is racist of not

Yikes

 

[Roudy]

I have a few issues with this article...

I have many Semite friends so cannot really call myself anti-semitic

I believe that Jews have a right, as does everyone have a right, to a 'homeland' so cannot really call myself anti-zionist

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist zionists, Israeli government for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist muslims, Hamas for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

So, what's with this article?

It goes some way, not far enough, perhaps not clearly enough in my opinion, in an attempt to show that there really is a difference between anti-semitic and anti-zionist...

In the same way that there is a difference between race and religion... Though most people prefer to muddy the waters by mixing the two, normally to benefit their own argument!

Separating anti-Semitism from Anti-Zionism

Anti-Zionism by definition is anti-Semitism, and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. correctly identified it when he said "when people say anti-Zionism, they're talking antisemitism"

Most anti-semites cloak their hatred by calling themselves "anti-Zionists" that are critical of Israel's policies. For the record that isn't what an anti-Zionist is. There are plenty of those in Israel that are critical of of Israeli policies. An anti-Zionist is one who believes that the Jews do not have a right to have their own state in land that their ancestors lived, and that's pure, unadulterated antisemitism.

 

[Roudy]

You might want to talk and read about true torah jews. Most Jews in Israel are secular There is a big difference. During the Russia revolution the athesist Jews tried to destroy all religion, EO and Judaism.

They have no right to Palestine, unless you take the bible of which they don't even believe. The only one that gave them the right was them. They stole Palestine.

If not like the Puritans who ventured across the ocean to parts unseen, this was a deliberate plan to rid the population of Palestine and make it a Zionist secular country.

True Torah Jews again? Ha ha ha. How many times do you antisemites need to be told that 99.9999% of Jews think exactly the opposite and they consider them an abomination and a cult?

 

[Boston1]

I'm thinking the revisionists would like to engage in all kinds of antisemitic lingo disguised as anti zionistic relying on the general publics ignorance of what exactly zionism is

Quote
Until 1948, the primary goals of Zionism were the re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel ("Eretz Israel" in Hebrew), ingathering of the exiles, and liberation of Jews from the antisemitic discrimination and persecution that occurred in their diaspora. Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism continues primarily to advocate on behalf of Israel and address threats to its continued existence and security.

A religious variety of Zionism supports Jews upholding their Jewish identity defined as adherence to religious Judaism, opposes the assimilation of Jews into other societies, and has advocated the return of Jews to Israel as a means for Jews to be a majority nation in their own state.[1] A variety of Zionism, called cultural Zionism, founded and represented most prominently by Ahad Ha'am, fostered a secular vision of a Jewish "spiritual center" in Israel. Unlike Herzl, the founder of political Zionism, Ahad Ha'am strived for Israel to be "a Jewish state and not merely a state of Jews".[8]

Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of a persecuted people residing as minorities in a variety of nations, to the homeland to which they had a historical connection.
End quote

That was from WIKI

The simple reality is that zionism is simply the support of the state of Israel and the belief that it is exactly where it should be, Israel today is in the exact same spot as Judea was in ancient times. ;--)

I would proudly refer to myself as not only a zionist, but also someone who supports native peoples everywhere.