Scruffy's math program for kids

my kids were doing trig by ninth grade.
Our friend scruffy is a pest, he litters the forum with his pontifications yet when challenged he wilts and retreats and denies reality, he has absolutely denied many things that are easily seen to be true, he's a fool and should have no role in any kind of education.

He uses the forum as a blog.

Here's one example and there are many more lying around the forum:

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I can suggest some potential trends and innovations in math education for American children from kindergarten to senior high based on current developments.

Here’s a speculative list of what math programs might be:

1. Personalized Learning Platforms: Adaptive technologies that tailor math programs to individual learning speeds and styles, using AI to assess progress.

2. Gamified Learning: Interactive games and challenges that make math concepts engaging, incorporating elements of competition and rewards to motivate students.

3. Project-Based Learning: Hands-on projects that integrate math with real-world applications, such as budgeting, coding, and engineering tasks.

4. STEM Integration: Emphasis on Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) through cross-curricular projects that highlight the applications of math in various fields.

5. Remote and Hybrid Learning Models: Online resources and virtual classrooms that provide flexible learning environments, supported by digital communication tools.

6. Focus on Financial Literacy: Programs that teach practical math skills related to personal finance, investing, and economic principles.

7. Social-Emotional Learning Integration: Strategies to foster a positive mindset towards math, encouraging resilience and a growth mindset among students.

8. Collaborative Learning Experiences: Group projects and peer tutoring that enhance problem-solving skills and promote teamwork in mathematical contexts.

These innovations aim to create a more engaging, relevant, and effective math education system for future generations. 📡💻📱🏡🏫
 
I can suggest some potential trends and innovations in math education for American children from kindergarten to senior high based on current developments.

Here’s a speculative list of what math programs might be:

1. Personalized Learning Platforms: Adaptive technologies that tailor math programs to individual learning speeds and styles, using AI to assess progress.

2. Gamified Learning: Interactive games and challenges that make math concepts engaging, incorporating elements of competition and rewards to motivate students.

3. Project-Based Learning: Hands-on projects that integrate math with real-world applications, such as budgeting, coding, and engineering tasks.

4. STEM Integration: Emphasis on Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) through cross-curricular projects that highlight the applications of math in various fields.

5. Remote and Hybrid Learning Models: Online resources and virtual classrooms that provide flexible learning environments, supported by digital communication tools.

6. Focus on Financial Literacy: Programs that teach practical math skills related to personal finance, investing, and economic principles.

7. Social-Emotional Learning Integration: Strategies to foster a positive mindset towards math, encouraging resilience and a growth mindset among students.

8. Collaborative Learning Experiences: Group projects and peer tutoring that enhance problem-solving skills and promote teamwork in mathematical contexts.

These innovations aim to create a more engaging, relevant, and effective math education system for future generations. 📡💻📱🏡🏫
Yes, these are interesting ideas, especially 1. Mathematics is inherently unambiguous and lends itself to such a method.
 
More fun with math! Be creative!

In yesterday's lesson we learned about rotation groups.

Algebraic groups are simple versions of RINGS. Groups and Rings begin with a set, which is just a collection of elements. In yesterday's example the elements were the vertexes of a polygon (or equivalently, the Nth roots of unity).

Groups only require a set and an operation. In yesterday's example the operation was rotation. Every time we apply the operation to an element of the set, we get a new element, which is also a member of the set. (That's why we say the elements form a group, and the operation is the group operator).

Rings, it turns out, require two operations, they're usually called + (addition) and * (multiplication). But they don't always have to be that way. You can invent your own operations, as long as they obey the rules.

The rules are:

1. Each operation is binary, it acts on pairs of elements and returns a single element. The result has to be another element of the same set.

2. The addition operator has to be commutative, which means the elements can be in either order and the same result will be obtained. In other words a + b = b + a. Also, there has to be an additive inverse and an additive identity, which means a + (-a) = 0. When we drop the requirement for an additive inverse, we have a semiring instead of a full ring.

3. Multiplication has to be associative but not necessarily commutative, and it has to distribute over addition. Which means a * (b * c) = (a * b) * c, and a * (b + c) = (a * b) + (a * c).

Now kids, you already know how the ring of integers behaves under addition and multiplication. But let's look at a ring with different operators. We're going to call this ring the tropical semiring, and we're going to define the operations this way:

addition: a + b = min(a,b)
multiplication: a * b = sum(a,b)

So in our tropical semiring, a polynomial like x^2 + xy + y^2 becomes

min( sum(x,x), sum(x,y), sum (y,y) )

The identity element for + is infinity, and the identity element for * is 0.

Why is this example a semiring and not a full ring? That's right - the "min" operation doesn't have an inverse.

Now kids, what kind of geometry can we expect from our tropical semiring?

I'm going to leave that to you as a homework assignment. You can start here:


For extra credit, I want you to define the mathematical term "idempotent", and tell me why our tropical semiring is idempotent.

For extra extra credit, I want you to invent your own ring. Remember, you'll need a set and two operations, and the operations have to obey the rules. Tomorrow we'll take your best inventions and share them with the class.
 
Background in algebra:

Set - a collection of objects (points, items, elements)

Operator - an action that "does something" to a member of a set

Binary operator - a function that takes two members of a set, and returns another member of the set

Properties of binary operators:

Associative
Commutative
Distributive

Magma: a set together with a binary operator. The operator action must be closed on the set.

Semi group - a magma with an operator that is associative (but not necessarily commutative)

There are also magmas that are commutative but not associative. Example: rock-paper-scissors
Such magmas generate non-associative algebras

Monoid - a semi group with an identity. Examples: the natural numbers with the multiplication operator, and the non-negative integers (natural numbers plus zero), together with the addition operator.

Group - an invertible monoid. Example: the (positive, negative, and zero) integers with addition.

Morphism: a function that maps one magma to another, and preserves the binary operation. (So f(x*y) = f(x) * f(y) )

The first recorded use of an algebraic morphism is the economist Stanley Jevons in 1863, when he calculated rates of commodity inflation.

Here is an example of a morphism M => N:

M is positive real numbers together with the geometric mean operator

N is real numbers together with the arithmetic mean operator

Then the logarithm f is a morphism from M to N, because log(sqrt(xy)) = (log x + log y) / 2

Note that these commutative magmas are not associative, nor do they have identities.

A commutative magma can generate a commutative monoid. A commutative group is called an Abelian group.

For non-associative magmas, order matters. Even if ab = ba, it is not necessarily true that (ab)c = a(bc). Parentheses can be avoided by using reverse polish notation.

If the underlying set has n elements, the number of possible magmas (algebras) is n ^ (n ^ 2).

An algebra is a set together with a collection of operations on the set. Therefore a magma is in a sense a "minimal algebra". The only requirement is closure.

Every other algebra is a magma with additional structure. If there is additional structure in the set we usually say it has additional topological structure. If there is additional structure in the operator(s) we usually say it has additional algebraic structure. Topological structure may for example include organization into subsets and the concepts of openness and compactness. Whereas algebraic structure may include commutativity and associativity.

A variety is a collection of algebraic structures defined by identities - which does not necessarily include quantification, connectives, and relations. This viewpoint falls into the domain of "universal algebra", and its natural representation is category theory. Category theory is pure mathematics, it describes many more things than just algebras. Its language includes monads, functors, and transformations like closure operators on partially ordered sets. These things are useful in programming languages but not necessarily in systems of equations. However there is some crossover, for instance in a magma with a non associative concatenation operator the list of all possible strings is expressed in the Dyck language and the number of ways of writing it is given by the Catalan number.

This diagram shows the general structure of useful computational algebras. The above summary references the right hand side of the picture.

1736667317719.webp


See also: Algebraic structure - Wikipedia
 
I'm showing you this because I want you to understand how much algebra (and math in general) has changed from when you learned it.

Kids need to learn, they need to keep up.

Groups are easy. They're just sets and operators. But the "Atlas of groups" (the complete classification) is only 20 years old. Kids should learn Cayley diagrams, which are just truth tables for groups.

Groups are fundamental to all of mathematics. They tell us what works, and what won't work. And sets are intuitive, any first grader can understand them. First graders should be able to handle truth tables, right?
 
Note how our resident bore scruffy repeatedly uses the phrase "kids should" and "kids need" over and over. Like this dingbat thinks he can dictate to others all the time even though he tells blatant lies.

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Sherlock thinks this is funny.

Because he doesn't know math.

He's an old fart, he learned math 50 years ago when it was still a bunch of memorization.

The key word for children is CONFIDENCE. We need to show them things that make sense to them.

Kids need to understand sets and operators BEFORE we ask them to start adding numbers and memorizing multiplication tables. Otherwise their natural reaction is going to be "this sucks, why do I have to memorize all this garbage".

Kids like FUN, so we make math fun for them. We play games, and we let them invent their own games. This way they end up liking math, instead of being intimidated by it.

I take this issue seriously because I have kids. I had to spend a lot of time with my son, supplementing the things he didn't learn in school. It helped me too, I had to actually go back and learn modern math so I could teach him. Now he's studying robotics at an Ivy League university. He'll get a good job, and make plenty of money. His skills will last a lifetime.

If we can get to the point where the kids say "this math stuff is fun, it ain't so bad", we'll have made an enormous leap and the test scores will increase and we'll start raising rocket scientists instead of dumbasses who can't balance a checkbook.
 
Sherlock thinks this is funny.
Not at all, I think you are.
Because he doesn't know math.
I knew what the generalized Pythagorean theorem was for curved spaces.
He's an old fart, he learned math 50 years ago when it was still a bunch of memorization.
How did you establish that belief?
The key word for children is CONFIDENCE. We need to show them things that make sense to them.
There are many important words when it comes to teaching children, "listening" is a very good one too, it helps to listen to them.
Kids need to understand sets and operators BEFORE we ask them to start adding numbers and memorizing multiplication tables. Otherwise their natural reaction is going to be "this sucks, why do I have to memorize all this garbage".
Most experts on mathematics teaching do not share your belief.
Kids like FUN, so we make math fun for them. We play games, and we let them invent their own games. This way they end up liking math, instead of being intimidated by it.

I take this issue seriously because I have kids. I had to spend a lot of time with my son, supplementing the things he didn't learn in school. It helped me too, I had to actually go back and learn modern math so I could teach him. Now he's studying robotics at an Ivy League university. He'll get a good job, and make plenty of money. His skills will last a lifetime.

If we can get to the point where the kids say "this math stuff is fun, it ain't so bad", we'll have made an enormous leap and the test scores will increase and we'll start raising rocket scientists instead of dumbasses who can't balance a checkbook.
But your posts are not my idea of "fun" they are full of dogma and "scruffy says" pontifications, boring is what I'd call them.

You also voted for and openly support the anti-science and anti-vaccines and anti-climate change trumpanzee in chief yet expect to be taken seriously when speaking of teaching STEM subjects? you're a joker, an egotistical windbag with an exaggerated sense of self importance.
 
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"in Chinese elementary schools, algebra is introduced at a relatively early age, focusing on basic concepts like solving simple equations with one variable, understanding the concept of variables, and performing basic operations with expressions, often starting as early as second grade with multiplication and progressing to more complex concepts as they move through the grades; this is generally considered more advanced than the typical algebra introduction in many Western elementary schools."

First grade.

Philosophy is a bunch of old men sitting around kvetching about "truth".

Mathematics is 1st graders building truth tables.

First grade:
  • Addition and subtraction: Adding and subtracting numbers, and applying strategies like counting on and decomposing numbers

  • Place value: Understanding place value, including grouping in tens and ones

  • Word problems: Solving word problems using drawings, objects, and equations

    • Fractions: Representing fractions, adding fractions, and finding equivalent fractions
    • Geometry: Identifying shapes, comparing sides and corners, and counting sides, corners, edges, vertices, and faces
    • Measurement: Using customary and metric units of length
    • Telling time: Reading clocks, matching clocks and time, and comparing clocks
    • Data collection and analysis: Collecting and analyzing data
First grade:

    • Understand the meaning of the equal sign and other mathematical operators
    • Determine if addition and subtraction equations are true or false
    • Research famous mathematicians and their mathematical ideas
 
 




 
First graders can learn geometry too.

Here's some fun learning tools.



 
In several previous posts, I talked about Clifford algebras. Now I want to show you the magic. You'll see how easy this is. Any child can learn it.

But I'll show it to you by way of explanation, so you can see how powerful it is. With a Clifford algebra, Maxwell's four equations become one simple and intuitive equation. By simply varying the Clifford numbers, we cover everything in physics, from relativity to quantum spinors.

We'll begin with an operator called the "wedge product", represented by the symbol ^. The algebra of wedge products is called a Grassmann algebra. I'll show it to you in 2 dimensions to keep it simple and intuitive. A wedge product works like this:

Given any two vectors x and y, the wedge product x ^ y is the area of the parallelogram spanned by x and y. To calculate it, you first move the vector y so its tail is at the tip of x. Like this:

1736733630460.gif


Now you just calculate the resulting area in the usual way. If your vectors are orthogonal you'll get a square or a rectangle, so the area is just ||x|| times ||y|| (where || is the norm, or the length of the vector).

If your vectors aren't orthogonal, you'll get a parallelogram, and the area is just the cross product of the vectors (which is x1y2 - x2 y1). The result of aligning the vectors this way is called a bivector, and you'll notice that in addition to a magnitude (which is its area), it also has an orientation. In two dimensions we say the orientation is either clockwise or counter-clockwise, and to figure out which it is you simply follow the vectors. So in the above diagram, the bivector on the top left has a counter-clockwise orientation, whereas the bivector on the top right has a clockwise orientation.

The trick with bivectors is, they anticommute. Which means

x ^ y = - y ^ x

The minus sign means you're reversing the orientation. And you can verify this works, by following the tip-to-tail construction method above.

So this is a Grassmann algebra in 2 dimensions, and you can also do it in 3 dimensions, or any number of dimensions. When you do it in 3 dimensions, you get a trivector instead of a bivector. A trivector looks like this:

1736734866352.jpeg


You'll notice, that the faces of the trivector are made up of three bivectors, and the rule for orientation is the bivectors have to be in opposite orientations everywhere the faces meet.

So now I'll tell you about Clifford algebras. In Clifford algebras, symbols square to either +1 or -1. How many of each you get is specified by the Clifford numbers. We write C(p,q) where p is the number of plus signs, and q is the number of minus signs. C(p,q) defines what kind of Clifford algebra we're talking about. For example, in C(1,0) symbols square to +1, which means they're either +1 or -1. But in C(0,1) symbols square to -1, which means they're either +I or -i (where i is the imaginary i, the square root of -1) - so C(0,1) are the complex numbers.

Similarly to the Grassmann algebra, if we exchange the order of the arguments we introduce a minus sign, so once again the Clifford algebra is anticommutative, xy = -yx. This time, the multiplication rule is called the Clifford product (or "geometric product"), and I'll define it in a moment, but first I want to show you how clever this is.

If we have symbols that square to 1 or -1, we can interpret this in many ways. One way is, we can have our symbols be matrices. So for example

1 =

| 1 0 |
| 0 1 |

squares to 1, whereas

i =

| 0 -1|
| 1 0 |

squares to -1, because

| -1 0 |
| 0 -1 |

is the negative identity.

The expression a + ib would then give you a matrix like this:

| a -b |
| b a |

OR, we can just use ordinary symbols, and have i stand for the square root of -1, in which case a + ib is just the usual complex number.

You can verify the equivalence of these two representations by working out the expression

(a + ib)(c + id)

in both ordinary and matrix form.

We can now introduce a second symbol j that squares to +1, but in this case we'll make the matrix

| 0 1 |
| 1 0 |

and thus we have C(1,0) which are the split complex numbers.

C(3,0) gives us the Pauli matrices (which are anticommutative), and which are formally identical to the quaternions (which are also anticommutative).

When we have C(1,3) we get the Dirac matrices which are also called the gamma matrices or the Weyl basis ("chiral basis"), that allows us to work with particle physics and quantum field theory. C(1,3) is also called the "spacetime algebra" because it gives us a Minkowski metric that allows us to work with special relativity.

The Clifford product is more complicated than the wedge product. With the wedge product, any vector wedge itself is 0

x ^ x = 0

but with the Clifford product a vector multiplied by itself gives the square of the norm (ie its length squared).

And more importantly, in Clifford algebras strict anticommutativity applies only for orthogonal vectors.

What you get out of a Clifford product depends on the dimensionality. In C(2,0) you get

uv = u . v + u ^ v

which is the sum of the dot product and the wedge product (in other words, the sum of a scalar and a bivector). When the vectors u and v are orthogonal, the dot product goes to 0 and we're left with the anticommutativity of the wedge product. When the vectors are parallel, the wedge product goes to 0 and we're left with the commutativity of the dot product.

To understand how this "really really" works, requires a knowledge of groups and rings. The Grassmann algebra is a tensor algebra quotiented by the left ideal of the special rule that any vector tensored with itself goes to 0. For a Clifford algebra, the special rule becomes any vector tensored with itself goes to the square of the norm. Formally, if Z = the tensor product of v tensored by itself, MINUS the squared length of V (which is given by the metric tensor), then the Clifford algebra is given by

C(V) = T(V) / Z

where / is the group quotient.

But you don't really have to know that, to use any given Clifford algebra. The derivation is really "not important" most of the time. It's abstract algebra, and what we're really interested in is the computing power.

However if you DO know the derivation, you'll be able to figure out any physical formula just by knowing its metric tensor (because the signs on the metric tensor will tell us how it commutes). In relativity, the sign convention of the metric tensor tells us whether we're looking at timelike intervals or spacelike intervals, and we can choose the appropriate Clifford algebra depending on our needs. You can verify this by working out the Einstein field equation with both sign conventions.

Clifford algebras are very powerful. They're not necessarily easy at the "proof" level, but they save us from memorizing 50 or more physical equations if we know how to use them. And it takes a whole lot less time to understand a derivation than it does to memorize 50 complicated equations. You can learn Clifford algebras in two weeks. How long did it take you to learn Maxwell's equations AND Schrodinger's equation AND quantum field theory AND Einstein's field equation? You see? This is why we have to teach kids the fast and powerful way of doing things, because we expect a lot from them these days.
 
To finish up with Clifford algebras, we can introduce a new definition.

We saw how the fundamental component of the Grassmann and Clifford algebras is a vector, and how the wedge product can be used to create bivectors, trivectors, and in general k-vectors.

We also saw how the Clifford product in 2 dimensions is the sum of a scalar and a bivector. (A scalar being a 0-vector).

In general, the sum of any arbitrary k-vectors is called a versor, and the Clifford product is a versor.

In the C(3,0) Clifford algebra describing quantum spin, the basis vectors are orthogonal, and orthogonality is associated with right angles.

But in the C(3,1) Clifford algebra describing spacetime (or more commonly C(1,3) according to which version of the metric we choose to use), orthogonality is not defined by right angles. Instead, it is defined by vectors that make equal angles with light.

Therefore our versor (our Clifford product) looks like a wedge product in the first case (because the dot product of orthogonal Euclidean vectors is always 0), but not in the second. In the first case, the Pauli matrices simply give us rotations in 3 dimensions, but in the second case the gamma matrices give us three additional transformations called "Lorentz boosts", which are kind of like stretching space and squishing time (or vice versa).

In addition to the Clifford symbols that square to 1 and -1, there are some that square to 0. An example in 2d would be a matrix like

| 0 1 |
| 0 0 |

In this case, we can add a third Clifford number to the definition of our algebra, for example C(0,0,1). When the third number is missing, we understand that all our symbols only square to 1 or -1.

So in general, a Clifford symbol is a square root of -1, 0, or 1, and the conjugation of symbols is specified by a permutation of commutativity and anticommutativity. A Clifford algebra is therefore slightly more general than an ordinary algebra which can be "either" commutative or anti commutative - a Clifford algebra can be both at the same time. How much of each we get depends on the angles of the vectors relative to the basis. A C(3,0) algebra results in a Euclidean geometry, whereas a C(3,1) algebra results in a hyperbolic geometry. In relativity, this translates into a distance that depends on the velocities of nearby points (in other words, it's the velocity space that's hyperbolic, and ordinary Euclidean, elliptic, and hyperbolic geometries translate into Minkowski, deSitter, and anti-deSitter space respectively - corresponding to zero, positive, and negative curvature). The Clifford construction shows us that velocity is formulated as a hyperbolic angle. (See "kinematic geometries", here: Non-Euclidean geometry - Wikipedia - where you will find an example of a Clifford symbol that squares to 0 in the form of the "dual number" €).

So, this Clifford algebra business is not "that" hard. If you can memorize all those God-awful integrals in calculus you can surely understand an algebra that's only very slightly more complex than simple matrix math.

You can just remember that a "versor" is a combination of vectors of different dimensions, and the fundamental form of a Clifford product is

xy = x . y + x ^ y

which in two dimensions turns out to be a dot product and a cross product, with the additional feature of an angular orientation.

Easy peasy, right? :p

Generally, Clifford algebras describe 100% of the known universe. Everything from quantum fields to general relativity. If you know Clifford algebras, you know physics.

Which is why kids should learn about Clifford algebras.

And by the way - you can get yourself a prize in mathematics if you can extend the Clifford product from square roots to Nth roots. Just like the description of the polygons in the previous post. Shouldn't be very hard. Last I checked math prizes are worth about a million bucks. You just have to know a bit about rings. Hopefully it'll be an American kid that gets the prize.
 
Children benefit from being taught philosophy, how to think, how to ask questions how to frame questions and assess the strength of arguments. In European schools this has been part of a school kid's life for a long time but here in the US we don't see such lessons.

Once a child has learned how to think for themselves the door to self education becomes wide open.
 
Traditionally, math begins with addition, subtraction, and the multiplication tables in the 3rd grade or so. Then, there is an introduction to geometry, algebra, and calculus in high school. Finally, there is usually a course in differential equations in college, and maybe some complex analysis if you're in a STEM field, and somewhere along the way there is also probability and statistics.

Scruffy says, this is not enough. To be competent in the modern world, a college graduate should understand differential geometry and tensor calculus (same thing, kind of), topology, and abstract algebra including but not limited to the theory of groups, rings, modules, and categories. Waiting for graduate school to understand these things is a guarantee of difficulty. These topics should be well studied prerequisites for any kind of graduate work.

Scruffy proposes to condense the course work at the high school level, as the beginning of a new mathematics program. BEFORE we start learning about triangles, we need an exposure to surfaces. Otherwise, there is no motivation for triangles, trigonometry, or conic sections. 7th grade is the perfect time for a "survey of mathematics" course. Why are we learning abstract algebra? What good is it? Why is calculus important? What is topology, and what is differential geometry?

In 6th grade, is when we want to cover basic algebra, combinatorics, and probability.

The 8th grade algebra course should include systems of linear equations, matrix math, and change of coordinates in addition to polynomials.

The 9th grade geometry course should include manifolds and an introduction to dot product, cross product, and tensor product.

The 10th grade calculus course should include multi variable calculus and de-emphasize the memorization of integrals and derivatives. It should specifically include an introduction to differential equations. Students should understand Stokes' and Green's theorems by the end of the course.

All this will prepare the student for the typical 11th grade introduction to physics, which should include Hamiltonian and LaGrangian mechanics (introductory dynamics, the LaPlacian, what is a wave equation, and so on). Math in 11th grade should be fun, not rigorous. It should include topology, abstract algebra, and probability as an introduction to quantum science. It should also specifically include an introduction to non-Euclidean geometries. It should provide motivation for the continuing study of math in college.

This is an example of a math curriculum that provides motivation for continuing study:


Then, by the time we get to college, we ALREADY know what an orbit is, before we start taking first year physics and chemistry. We know what polar coordinates are BEFORE we have to solve problems involving angular momentum, and thus we can easily and intuitively understand concepts like quantum spin, and we can already start to manipulate them using spinors and quantum computing gates.

First year math in college should be hard core differential equations. (Since we already learned linear algebra and multi variable calculus in high school). It should also include an introduction to stochastic equations (like Brownian motion, which fits right in with first year chemistry and physics).

Second year math should be differential geometry and topology, with a focus on tensor calculus. By the end of the second year in college, students should be able to seamlessly transition between coordinates systems, both geometrically and algebraically. The course should include an introduction to measure theory and invariances, so we understand measure preserving and conformal transformations, and it should also include the mechanics of distances and angles on curved surfaces.

After all this, third year college math should focus on abstract algebra and algebraic topology, starting with immersions and including fiber bundles, sheaves, foliations, simplexes with graph theory, and so on.

Finally, senior level.math in college should once again be fun and motivational. Dimensionality is a good topic, fractional dimensions, dusts, space filling curves, fractal geometries, and so on. Electives might include a course in quantum field theory, for instance the creation and annihilation operators tie right in with dimensionality and also pertain to neural networks and machine learning. Advanced probability theory could be another elective - the Ito, Langevin, and Malliavin calculuses, how to solve non-equilibrium equations in open systems, information geometry, stochastic dynamics and stability, and entropy.

Anyone who graduates from college should be conversational with mathematics. It doesn't mean you have to pull equations out of your butt, it just means you have to be familiar with the principles. You don't have to know what a Lorentz boost is unless you're a physicist, but you should know enough about coordinates systems so someone could explain it to you in 5 minutes.

This business of graduating from college without knowing how to balance a checkbook has to stop. Scruffy says: if you want to graduate, you WILL learn math. If you can't do it, go to trade school instead. (Where you'll learn it anyway lol). :p
On this topic, I have to agree with "rightwinger" as to all of the complicated mathematics.
I completed four years of college and served a career in the military and the most mathematics I've had to use in my life are basic mathematics, a few conversion equations and topical grid maps in the field. That's it. The same can be said of people in most careers.
 
On this topic, I have to agree with "rightwinger" as to all of the complicated mathematics.
I completed four years of college and served a career in the military and the most mathematics I've had to use in my life are basic mathematics, a few conversion equations and topical grid maps in the field. That's it. The same can be said of people in most careers.
But not all.

And those peole don't fall out of the sky as fully formed adults. They start as children in Algebra class.

And we need those people. They are the reason your job even exists in the first place.
 
But not all.

And those peole don't fall out of the sky as fully formed adults. They start as children in Algebra class.

And we need those people. They are the reason your job even exists in the first place.
My career existed because humans like to kill each other, whether it was with clubs, rocks, bow and arrows, or spears. Even if this world no longer had any modern warfare, we'd still resort to those other items. It's all part of human nature.
 

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