Zone1 School forces 7th grader to remove ideological T shirt despite hanging ideological flags/posters

[Mr. Friscus]

Think what you like, but the experts, not to mention the bulk of society, say otherwise.

“the experts”… all? Anywhere near all?

“The bulk of society”… you think the bulk of people think females/women can have penises?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

There are a few reasons why.

First of all, you have to understand that sex and gender are two different things. Sex is a function of physiology, while gender is where you fit in with society's expectations. Curried Goats posted a link to Yale University's explanation of the two, which is as academic and unbiased a source as you're ever going to find. Here's the link again:

What Do We Mean By Sex and Gender?

As we pursue our work at Women's Health Research at Yale, it is particularly important to use language that captures the different concepts of sex and gender so

medicine.yale.edu

So, to start with, the boy's t-shirt flies in the face of science.

A second reason is legal. Sexual preference and gender identity are protected classes under Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. (This was clarified three years ago in a USSC case called Bostock v. Clayton County, Georgia.)

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/17-1618_hfci.pdf

Displaying posters and so on to support non-discrimination of a protected class is acceptable, and one could even argue that it is what public schools should be doing. Wearing a t-shirt that opposes a protected class is not the opposite side of a justice's scales, it is the wrong side of civil rights. Regardless of the administration's (or the kid's, or the parents') personal feelings about the issue, schools generally try to follow federal law.

I find this argument disingenuous, as there are many protected classes that..

A. Aren’t celebrated and promoted by public schools
B. Are allowed to be disagreed with by T shirts.

For example. Should a school have posters and flags of Christ and the Catholic Church? Muhammad and Muslim? Religion is a protected class. What about their pride?

Should they have German flags to make German Americans feel welcome? Russian? Irish posters saying “Irish Pride!”? Turkish? National origin is a protected class. What about their pride?

Of course, that would be ridiculous.. so your contention that schools SHOULD celebrate only LGBTQ with flags/posters but ignore everyone else shows activism and indoctrination via exposure. You don’t care about protected classes, you’ve selected one and ignored all the rest.

Meanwhile, as a Christian I recall seeing many heavy metal band T-shirts that were entirely anti-Christian. They weren’t, and aren’t, asked to remove their shirts. (Nor should they, just as this 7th grader shouldn’t have to). Even if I were put off by them, I, like Christians all over, aren’t encouraged to be victims and cower into emotional breakdowns the moment anyone disagrees with us. We don’t have the insane compulsion to “feel unsafe” around a differing message than our own. Disagreement is not “violence”. The LGBTQ community is far too fragile, and needs to join the rest of us in being able to handle ANY critique without having breakdowns

A third reason is practical. There's a good chance his shirt would start a fight.

That would be on the kid who starts it. Are you saying kids that might simply be triggered by a T shirt are incapable of self control? The rest of us victim classes do it.. why the soft bigotry of lower expectations for the LGBTQ?

 

[Couchpotato]

IDK. Were schools that tried to ban AC/DC shirts back in the day that had Mozart posters on the music room bulletin boards practicing a "double standard"?

I think bans are silly and counter-productive because you are just giving people looking for a reaction the reaction they were looking for, but it isn't something I get too vested in being old enough to have seen these type pearl clutching moments change time and time again.

The obvious difference being that Mozart was likely in the curriculum and AC/DC wasnt. In this case neither "issue" is part of the curriculum so there's foundation to ban one over the other.

 

[Couchpotato]

You have no proof. I'm more than happy to have this debate, again, but I previously linked to an explanation between the difference of sex and gender and you simply ignored it. All you've had for evidence so far on your end are the pejoratives of calling people weird. If you want to try your hand at objective debate then let's have at it.

Biological sex refers to characteristics of your biological make up. Typically your chromosomes and sexual reproductive system. They are objective. Gender refers to social roles. They are subjective. I have a penis. That's an objective biological fact. Women are caregivers on the otherhand is an entirely subjective statement. Some women aren't care givers. Some women would be terrible at it. The role of caregiver for women is a socially expected one rather than a emergent property from every woman's biology.

If gender is a social role and those roles are completely subjective how can a boy "feel" like a girl intrinsically? The "girl gender" is just some shit we made as a society so how can a child who has no understanding of what that means think they are one or the other? Those roles have to be taught so there's no way a boy could be born in girl's body. There's no reason to hack off or add body parts. Those individuals are born in the correct bodies. They have all the correct parts. They just happen to like the roles society has assigned to the other gender. The only way transgenderism works is if women are wired to do "woman things" and men are wire do "man things" Gender cant be a social construct and something you're born into at the same time.

 

[Dekster]

The obvious difference being that Mozart was likely in the curriculum and AC/DC wasnt. In this case neither "issue" is part of the curriculum so there's foundation to ban one over the other.

Pretty sure the first amendment is about protecting something other than the official government edicts.

 

[Couchpotato]

Pretty sure the first amendment is about protecting something other than the official government edicts.

Not the point I was trying to make.

 

[Dekster]

Not the point I was trying to make.

Then perhaps you should have tried a different tact than well that was okay because it wasn't part of the government's agenda.

 

[Curried Goats]

If gender is a social role and those roles are completely subjective how can a boy "feel" like a girl intrinsically? The "girl gender" is just some shit we made as a society so how can a child who has no understanding of what that means think they are one or the other? Those roles have to be taught so there's no way a boy could be born in girl's body. There's no reason to hack off or add body parts. Those individuals are born in the correct bodies. They have all the correct parts. They just happen to like the roles society has assigned to the other gender. The only way transgenderism works is if women are wired to do "woman things" and men are wire do "man things" Gender cant be a social construct and something you're born into at the same time.

Gender and sex are often used interchangeably and I think you're confusing the ways in which it is meant. Gender expressions refers to the socially constructed aspects of gender which represent the way different societies believe men and women should dress and behave and express themselves and gender identities refers to the feeling of having been born in the wrong body. I'm guessing they don't call them sex identities so they aren't confused with people who are gay or bisexual or asexual.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

 

[Couchpotato]

Gender and sex are often used interchangeably and I think you're confusing the ways in which it is meant. Gender expressions refers to the socially constructed aspects of gender which represent the way different societies believe men and women should dress and behave and express themselves and gender identities refers to the feeling of having been born in the wrong body. I'm guessing they don't call them sex identities so they aren't confused with people who are gay or bisexual or asexual.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

Doesn't change my point does it. Gender is just something we've made up. How can you feel you've been born in the wrong body if we've just made up what it means to be a boy or girl from a gender perspective? And if it's just a made up role how can I be born with a feeling that the body I was born with is wrong? What would a child base that on? That has to be a learned thing as the role of man and woman from a gender perspective is learned. What you're describing isn't (cant) be a physical problem. The roles you speak of are completely made up, completely subjective and have nothing to do with one's genitalia as you've pointed out. So why would we need to hack off someone's dick and balls or their tits as part of this?

 

[Curried Goats]

Doesn't change my point does it. Gender is just something we've made up. How can you feel you've been born in the wrong body if we've just made up what it means to be a boy or girl from a gender perspective? And if it's just a made up role how can I be born with a feeling that the body I was born with is wrong? What would a child base that on? That has to be a learned thing as the role of man and woman from a gender perspective is learned. What you're describing isn't (cant) be a physical problem. The roles you speak of are completely made up, completely subjective and have nothing to do with one's genitalia as you've pointed out. So why would we need to hack off someone's dick and balls or their tits as part of this?

I gave you the link to help explain that to you. Gender expressions are a reference to the things society makes up. Gender identities is a reference to the brain and body not aligning, biologically. It's like the difference between a transgender woman and a Tom Boy. A Tom Boy is a girl, who's brain identifies as a girl but who likes to wear clothes and do things that society typically associates with boy behavior. A trans woman's brain is telling her she's in the wrong body. Trans are for the brain what the intersexed are for genitalia.

 

[Couchpotato]

I gave you the link to help explain that to you. Gender expressions are a reference to the things society makes up. Gender identities is a reference to the brain and body not aligning, biologically. It's like the difference between a transgender woman and a Tom Boy. A Tom Boy is a girl, who's brain identifies as a girl but who likes to wear clothes and do things that society typically associates with boy behavior. A trans woman's brain is telling her she's in the wrong body. Trans are for the brain what the intersexed are for genitalia.

Gender is a made up thing right or wrong?

 

[Curried Goats]

Gender is a made up thing right or wrong?

Gender expressions are. Gendered identities are not.

For the especially illiterate and dense.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

It is important to note that gender identity is different from gender expression. Whereas gender identity refers to one’s psychological sense of their gender, gender expression refers to the way in which one presents to the world in a gendered way. For example, in much of the U.S., wearing a dress is considered a “feminine” gender expression, and wearing a tuxedo is considered a “masculine” gender expression. Such expectations are culturally defined and vary across time and culture. One’s gender expression does not necessarily align with their gender identity. Diverse gender expressions, much like diverse gender identities, are not indications of a mental disorder.

 

[Couchpotato]

Gender expressions are. Gendered identities are not.

For the especially illiterate and dense.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

It is important to note that gender identity is different from gender expression. Whereas gender identity refers to one’s psychological sense of their gender, gender expression refers to the way in which one presents to the world in a gendered way. For example, in much of the U.S., wearing a dress is considered a “feminine” gender expression, and wearing a tuxedo is considered a “masculine” gender expression. Such expectations are culturally defined and vary across time and culture. One’s gender expression does not necessarily align with their gender identity. Diverse gender expressions, much like diverse gender identities, are not indications of a mental disorder.

So it's their sense of the made-up roles we've subjectively assigned to people of a certain sex? And we are to believe that people are born with this inherent in them? All the things listed in your link are learned behaviors. So, if a boy is born in the US and likes to wear dresses, he's a transgender but had he been born in the middle east he wouldn't have been a transgender because men wear something akin to a dress there?

 

[Curried Goats]

So it's their sense of the made-up roles we've subjectively assigned to people of a certain sex? And we are to believe that people are born with this inherent in them? All the things listed in your link are learned behaviors. So, if a boy is born in the US and likes to wear dresses, he's a transgender but had he been born in the middle east he wouldn't have been a transgender because men wear something akin to a dress there?

No. Wearing dresses has nothing to do with being transgender. Did you only read the part I quoted for you? It's not that hard to understand guy. Here's a longer quote from the link.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

The term “transgender” refers to a person whose sex assigned at birth (i.e. the sex assigned at birth, usually based on external genitalia) does not align their gender identity (i.e., one’s psychological sense of their gender). Some people who are transgender will experience “gender dysphoria,” which refers to psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity. Though gender dysphoria often begins in childhood, some people may not experience it until after puberty or much later.

People who are transgender may pursue multiple domains of gender affirmation, including social affirmation (e.g., changing one’s name and pronouns), legal affirmation (e.g., changing gender markers on one’s government-issued documents), medical affirmation (e.g., pubertal suppression or gender-affirming hormones), and/or surgical affirmation (e.g., vaginoplasty, facial feminization surgery, breast augmentation, masculine chest reconstruction, etc.). Of note, not all people who are transgender will desire all domains of gender affirmation, as these are highly personal and individual decisions.

It is important to note that gender identity is different from gender expression. Whereas gender identity refers to one’s psychological sense of their gender, gender expression refers to the way in which one presents to the world in a gendered way. For example, in much of the U.S., wearing a dress is considered a “feminine” gender expression, and wearing a tuxedo is considered a “masculine” gender expression. Such expectations are culturally defined and vary across time and culture. One’s gender expression does not necessarily align with their gender identity. Diverse gender expressions, much like diverse gender identities, are not indications of a mental disorder.

Gender identity is also different from sexual orientation. Sexual orientation refers to the types of people towards which one is sexually attracted. As with people who are cisgender (people whose sex assigned at birth aligns with their gender identity), people who are transgender have a diverse range of sexual orientations.

 

[Couchpotato]

No. Wearing dresses has nothing to do with being transgender. Did you only read the part I quoted for you? It's not that hard to understand guy. Here's a longer quote from the link.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

The term “transgender” refers to a person whose sex assigned at birth (i.e. the sex assigned at birth, usually based on external genitalia) does not align their gender identity (i.e., one’s psychological sense of their gender). Some people who are transgender will experience “gender dysphoria,” which refers to psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity. Though gender dysphoria often begins in childhood, some people may not experience it until after puberty or much later.

People who are transgender may pursue multiple domains of gender affirmation, including social affirmation (e.g., changing one’s name and pronouns), legal affirmation (e.g., changing gender markers on one’s government-issued documents), medical affirmation (e.g., pubertal suppression or gender-affirming hormones), and/or surgical affirmation (e.g., vaginoplasty, facial feminization surgery, breast augmentation, masculine chest reconstruction, etc.). Of note, not all people who are transgender will desire all domains of gender affirmation, as these are highly personal and individual decisions.

It is important to note that gender identity is different from gender expression. Whereas gender identity refers to one’s psychological sense of their gender, gender expression refers to the way in which one presents to the world in a gendered way. For example, in much of the U.S., wearing a dress is considered a “feminine” gender expression, and wearing a tuxedo is considered a “masculine” gender expression. Such expectations are culturally defined and vary across time and culture. One’s gender expression does not necessarily align with their gender identity. Diverse gender expressions, much like diverse gender identities, are not indications of a mental disorder.

Gender identity is also different from sexual orientation. Sexual orientation refers to the types of people towards which one is sexually attracted. As with people who are cisgender (people whose sex assigned at birth aligns with their gender identity), people who are transgender have a diverse range of sexual orientations.

Gender is a made up thing. It's a subjective group of behaviors we've assigned to people with certain genitalia. The solution to someone who doesnt have that genitalia liking some or all of those things isnt to lop off or add genitalia.

 

[Curried Goats]

Gender is a made up thing. It's a subjective group of behaviors we've assigned to people with certain genitalia. The solution to someone who doesnt have that genitalia liking some or all of those things isnt to lop off or add genitalia.

Are you medically trained to make that determination?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

“the experts”… all? Anywhere near all?

“The bulk of society”… you think the bulk of people think females/women can have penises?

The proles live in their own insulated little world.

I love it when one of these little fools who have never taken a science class in their lives push the tranny agenda as "science".

 

[Couchpotato]

Are you medically trained to make that determination?

Why would you require medical training to understand that? Are you saying that a person's likes and dislikes are tied to their genitalia? That their personality is set by what body parts they have and cannot deviate from that?

 

[Curried Goats]

Why would you require medical training to understand that?

I think the answer to why you need medical training to give medical diagnosis is obvious.

Are you saying that a person's likes and dislikes are tied to their genitalia?

No.

That their personality is set by what body parts they have and cannot deviate from that?

Your personality is a property of your brain function, not your genitals.

 

[Couchpotato]

I think the answer to why you need medical training to give medical diagnosis is obvious.

No.

Your personality is a property of your brain function, not your genitals.

So why are we cutting off or adding genitals based on someone’s personality?


Oh if gender and sex aren’t tied to each other why would we need to alter someone’s sex organ based on the gender they identify with?