School Choice

[Unkotare]

....

Throughout my involvement with the education system, I found this to be the PREVALENT attitude, not an exception or two. ....

Your 'experience' is subjective.

 

[Spare_change]

....

Throughout my involvement with the education system, I found this to be the PREVALENT attitude, not an exception or two. ....

Your 'experience' is subjective.

Duh!

Course, that makes it no less real.

 

[Thunderbird]

Democrat party elites are failing the people: http://nypost.com/2017/02/08/the-democratic-party-has-lost-its-mind-and-its-soul/

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I am not arguing the public school system is the best it can be, but this argument for "school choice" is based on false pathos (oh, the poor black child is stuck in a low performing school, is bullshit

I'm sure you know all about what's best for minority children - far more than minority parents.

Quote: In fact, school choice is disproportionately popular among minority groups. AFC surveyed 1,100 likely voters in January 2016: 70 percent supported school choice, defined as “giv[ing] parents the right to use the tax dollars associated with their child’s education to send their child to the public or private school which better serves their needs." Among African Americans and Latinos, the number was 76 percent. A poll commissioned last year by the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools showed similar levels of support.

Read more at: Cory Booker Turns on His One-Time Ally, Betsy DeVos

those who want to shield their child from reality have every right to do so, and risk creating bigots and young adults not ready to adapt to a sheltered environment.

So students who go to school in mostly white areas like Maine or Finland are more likely to be bigots?!

Everybody likes free stuff!

DUH!

 

[Markle]

School choice is a euphemism for segregation.

/---- How stupid.

That's not a rebuttal, it's an ad hominem, aka, a logical fallacy. School choice exists now, did when I went to school in the 1950's and this has never changed.

Those who want to send their kids to private schools have ever right to do so. The argument is they want the taxpayer to pay for the costs, when the taxpayer is already paying the school district which provides free public education to every child in its district. Taking money from the public school system is the goal of those who argue for "school choice".

I am not arguing the public school system is the best it can be, but this argument for "school choice" is based on false pathos (oh, the poor black child is stuck in a low performing school, is bullshit - it is the white parent so fearful of cultures, races an ethnic differences they want to protect their child from our diverse and multi society).

Public education has adapted, by allowing the creation of Charter Schools and providing AP Classes, remedial classes, etc. and allowing disabled children to attend the public school. The call for "school choice" is a call for segregation, those who want to shield their child from reality have every right to do so, and risk creating bigots and young adults not ready to adapt to a sheltered environment.

The "How Stupid" comment perfectly and succinctly describes and responds to your position.

Seek help!

 

[Markle]

Are private schools and charter schools subjected to the same testing, of "No child Left Behind" legislation as the Public Schools are...?

If they are NOT, and people think these private schools are BETTER schools than Public Schools, then why not ELIMINATE the rules for no child left behind in the Public Schools? Or why not force the Private schools getting our tax dollars to meet the same testing standards required for Public Schools?

It should be apples to apples so the parents can be informed on a level basis, what school to choose for their child.

We have a number of excellent private schools in our area. We also have some very good, and some whose reputation is less than stellar. I paid for my step-daughter to go to one of the best private schools for her last eight years of education. The school she attended has a record of 100% of their graduates being accepted into college. My step-daughter qualified for the top Bright Futures Scholarship program and went on to graduate from FSU.

Going into her 10th grade, she had begun complaining that she wanted to go to the public school. I took her to the one she would be attending for about half a day. It is one of the top two or three high schools in our county. She was quiet on the way home and then had a talk with her mom, my wife and we never heard her say anything about it again.

 

[Markle]

Are private schools and charter schools subjected to the same testing, of "No child Left Behind" legislation as the Public Schools are...?

If they are NOT, and people think these private schools are BETTER schools than Public Schools, then why not ELIMINATE the rules for no child left behind in the Public Schools? Or why not force the Private schools getting our tax dollars to meet the same testing standards required for Public Schools?

It should be apples to apples so the parents can be informed on a level basis, what school to choose for their child.

Or.....set up our schools like those in countries we seem to admire their school test results so much.

In the vast amount of cases, setting up schools like those in other countries scoring ahead of us would not be possible nor would it be accepted by voters. The fact remains too that those other countries are not multicultural in nature. They have different family values. Anyone who does not understand that or does not believe that is a major difference, are deluding themselves.

 

[Markle]

School choice is fairly routine in many other nations, nations who do a better job of educating their children than we do.

How does school choice work in other countries?[/QUOTE]

What no one seems to take into account is that we are a multicultural nation.

 

[Markle]

School choice is a euphemism for segregation.

The idea that every child will have a choice is a lie

Parents will naturally flock to the better school in the district which will quickly fill up. School choice will end up being a choice of wealthier white parents to pull their child out of a minority school

Most communities, especially rural ones, only have one school
How does school choice help them?

Lol. Do you think maybe successful schools might expand? Set up branches?

Do you think maybe rural folk might figure out how to build another school if an educational need is not being satisfied?

No they won't....most communities struggle to support the school they have

Why not use educational funds wisely? Let's stop wasting money on useless bureaucracies. Focus money on the schools that work.

Why don't you want to empower students and parents?

I agree

Why use our limited education funds on people who choose to send their kids to private school?

Because government schools are failing. If the government school is not educating ten students, that is ten students they will not have as an expense.

Specifically, why do you want to discriminate against low and moderate income people by not allowing them the same choice as more wealthy parents? How do you hope to break the cycle of poverty if all you offer to low and moderate income parents is a low and moderate education?

As for myself and my wife, we pay substantial property taxes, which are one of the primary sources of revenue for our local schools. We then paid a substantial amount for tuition, plus books and trips at a private school.

 

[Markle]

The idea that every child will have a choice is a lie

Parents will naturally flock to the better school in the district which will quickly fill up. School choice will end up being a choice of wealthier white parents to pull their child out of a minority school

Most communities, especially rural ones, only have one school
How does school choice help them?

Lol. Do you think maybe successful schools might expand? Set up branches?

Do you think maybe rural folk might figure out how to build another school if an educational need is not being satisfied?

No they won't....most communities struggle to support the school they have

Why not use educational funds wisely? Let's stop wasting money on useless bureaucracies. Focus money on the schools that work.

Why don't you want to empower students and parents?

I agree

Why use our limited education funds on people who choose to send their kids to private school?

The police come to gated communities if there's a crime, right?

Your point being?

 

[Markle]

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

Saw her live several times, once before she played Woodstock. My very favorite blues singer.

 

[Markle]

The police come to gated communities if there's a crime, right?

Very true

Should gated communities be able to take the part of their tax dollars that support police and pay for their own private force?

They pay for both.

Should they be able to withhold taxes to pay for their own security force?

That's a stupid analogy, people who have no kids can't with hold tax dollars for schools, we pay no matter what.

Good point

Why should someone who sends their kid to catholic school receive a voucher while someone without kids gets nothing

I believe you're off track. We are talking about giving a voucher to students in failing schools to allow them the same choice of schools enjoyed by more affluent parents. How is that a bad thing? How does competition harm education?

 

[Markle]

School choice is a nice idea but won't solve anything. People want to know what's wrong with the education system?

Last week was parent conference night. Every parent was notified via phone message, billboards at the school and announcers, and a take home letter for students. I teach 150 students...how many kids had parents show up? 2. Literally. That's barely over 1%.

I'm not anti-parent, and I'd love for them to be involved with my class....but when you get 1% of parents showing up how could I?

You don't reach out to them?

I can't reach out to 180 people on an individual basis are the start of the year, it's impossible. I do make the students get their syllabi signed where I reach out to them in the paper. I contact student parents for behavioral issues and/or grade issues when necessary and even call home for the good kids.

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

2/150 is pathetic no matter how you slice the numbers or resolve cognitive dissonance.

Nonsense. Of course, it is possible to reach out to a mere 180 people. Apparently, you have a computer, is email not available? It is impossible for me to believe that there are not contact management programs available to teachers just as they are for me a 40 year Realtor.

When I was active I had a contact list of over 1,200 people with whom I had a friendship, professional contact, listed or sold a property to or for. Monthly they were contacted by me with a letter or card. Every three months, or monthly for many, I contacted them personally by phone. Each got a hand written Christmas card.

Yes, I made my living by keeping in touch with these friends, my livelihood depended on referrals. However, you're only talking about 180 people. Quarterly I would visit, going door to door, each house in a neighborhood of 225.

 

[mgh80]

School choice is a nice idea but won't solve anything. People want to know what's wrong with the education system?

Last week was parent conference night. Every parent was notified via phone message, billboards at the school and announcers, and a take home letter for students. I teach 150 students...how many kids had parents show up? 2. Literally. That's barely over 1%.

I'm not anti-parent, and I'd love for them to be involved with my class....but when you get 1% of parents showing up how could I?

You don't reach out to them?

I can't reach out to 180 people on an individual basis are the start of the year, it's impossible. I do make the students get their syllabi signed where I reach out to them in the paper. I contact student parents for behavioral issues and/or grade issues when necessary and even call home for the good kids.

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

2/150 is pathetic no matter how you slice the numbers or resolve cognitive dissonance.

Nonsense. Of course, it is possible to reach out to a mere 180 people. Apparently, you have a computer, is email not available? It is impossible for me to believe that there are not contact management programs available to teachers just as they are for me a 40 year Realtor.

When I was active I had a contact list of over 1,200 people with whom I had a friendship, professional contact, listed or sold a property to or for. Monthly they were contacted by me with a letter or card. Every three months, or monthly for many, I contacted them personally by phone. Each got a hand written Christmas card.

Yes, I made my living by keeping in touch with these friends, my livelihood depended on referrals. However, you're only talking about 180 people. Quarterly I would visit, going door to door, each house in a neighborhood of 225.

1) Not all of my students have internet access at home...you should have seen my old school when I was shocked that almost none of my students knew how to even turn a computer on-let alone know how to send/receive emails.

2) I clearly said on an INDIVIDUAL basis-not sure if you missed that part or not. Sending a mass email to all parents is obviously not reaching out to them on an individual level. Do you really think it's possible to take ten minutes to write 180 emails within the first few days of school? That comes down to 1800 minutes (30 hours).

PS:

-I have stopped sending emails home to parents because they never get answered (unless the parent has emailed me first-and they all have my email)
-My district has an online grading program where parents can message me-and some do and I obviously respond to them on there. Also, all of my assignments are posted on the program so parents have access to it.

3) Contacting parents makes up a small part of my job I have:

Online classes to take for my certification, 6 hours of classes to teach a day, two lessons to plan (per day), essays/papers to grade, tests to grade, IEP/504 notes to submit, pre and post observations to plan for, PLC meetings/observations, prepare my students for their state writing test that they must pass in order to graduate, write recommendation letters, tutor students individually, etc.

Don't get me wrong: I am not complaining about my job whatsoever. I'm merely pointing out that it's not feasible for me to call or contact each parent on an individual level...hence why I said I send home a syllabus to be signed, make calls on on individual basis when necessary (this includes bad AND good calls). Believe it or not I've had plenty of parents get upset at me for contacting them (since they're so used to be contacted by the school for their child's behavior). But of course it's not their fault or their kid's fault why their kid got caught selling molly in the bathroom--they were framed by the REAL drug dealers in the school! (give me a break LOL).

Conference night is the perfect time for parents to show up...and there's crickets. The parents that do show up I absolutely offer input for them and make sure I ask them if they have any suggestions for my class-but usually it's the parents of the "A" or "B" kids that show up, and they're typically very pleased with my class. On the odd occasion they offer a suggestion-I take it seriously as I stated above.

 

[Markle]

School choice is a nice idea but won't solve anything. People want to know what's wrong with the education system?

Last week was parent conference night. Every parent was notified via phone message, billboards at the school and announcers, and a take home letter for students. I teach 150 students...how many kids had parents show up? 2. Literally. That's barely over 1%.

I'm not anti-parent, and I'd love for them to be involved with my class....but when you get 1% of parents showing up how could I?

You don't reach out to them?

I can't reach out to 180 people on an individual basis are the start of the year, it's impossible. I do make the students get their syllabi signed where I reach out to them in the paper. I contact student parents for behavioral issues and/or grade issues when necessary and even call home for the good kids.

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

2/150 is pathetic no matter how you slice the numbers or resolve cognitive dissonance.

Nonsense. Of course, it is possible to reach out to a mere 180 people. Apparently, you have a computer, is email not available? It is impossible for me to believe that there are not contact management programs available to teachers just as they are for me a 40 year Realtor.

When I was active I had a contact list of over 1,200 people with whom I had a friendship, professional contact, listed or sold a property to or for. Monthly they were contacted by me with a letter or card. Every three months, or monthly for many, I contacted them personally by phone. Each got a hand written Christmas card.

Yes, I made my living by keeping in touch with these friends, my livelihood depended on referrals. However, you're only talking about 180 people. Quarterly I would visit, going door to door, each house in a neighborhood of 225.

1) Not all of my students have internet access at home...you should have seen my old school when I was shocked that almost none of my students knew how to even turn a computer on-let alone know how to send/receive emails.

2) I clearly said on an INDIVIDUAL basis-not sure if you missed that part or not. Sending a mass email to all parents is obviously not reaching out to them on an individual level. Do you really think it's possible to take ten minutes to write 180 emails within the first few days of school? That comes down to 1800 minutes (30 hours).

PS:

-I have stopped sending emails home to parents because they never get answered (unless the parent has emailed me first-and they all have my email)
-My district has an online grading program where parents can message me-and some do and I obviously respond to them on there. Also, all of my assignments are posted on the program so parents have access to it.

3) Contacting parents makes up a small part of my job I have:

Online classes to take for my certification, 6 hours of classes to teach a day, two lessons to plan (per day), essays/papers to grade, tests to grade, IEP/504 notes to submit, pre and post observations to plan for, PLC meetings/observations, prepare my students for their state writing test that they must pass in order to graduate, write recommendation letters, tutor students individually, etc.

Don't get me wrong: I am not complaining about my job whatsoever. I'm merely pointing out that it's not feasible for me to call or contact each parent on an individual level...hence why I said I send home a syllabus to be signed, make calls on on individual basis when necessary (this includes bad AND good calls). Believe it or not I've had plenty of parents get upset at me for contacting them (since they're so used to be contacted by the school for their child's behavior). But of course it's not their fault or their kid's fault why their kid got caught selling molly in the bathroom--they were framed by the REAL drug dealers in the school! (give me a break LOL).

Conference night is the perfect time for parents to show up...and there's crickets. The parents that do show up I absolutely offer input for them and make sure I ask them if they have any suggestions for my class-but usually it's the parents of the "A" or "B" kids that show up, and they're typically very pleased with my class. On the odd occasion they offer a suggestion-I take it seriously as I stated above.

I understand it's a bother to make it a point to contact parents on a regular basis. Saying they don't all have the internet is a cop out. You're saying you won't contact 180 parents because five don't have the internet.

A bad response from someone and I'd contact them once more and make a note to not call them again. You've gone the extra mile.

 

[mgh80]

School choice is a nice idea but won't solve anything. People want to know what's wrong with the education system?

Last week was parent conference night. Every parent was notified via phone message, billboards at the school and announcers, and a take home letter for students. I teach 150 students...how many kids had parents show up? 2. Literally. That's barely over 1%.

I'm not anti-parent, and I'd love for them to be involved with my class....but when you get 1% of parents showing up how could I?

You don't reach out to them?

I can't reach out to 180 people on an individual basis are the start of the year, it's impossible. I do make the students get their syllabi signed where I reach out to them in the paper. I contact student parents for behavioral issues and/or grade issues when necessary and even call home for the good kids.

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening. Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

2/150 is pathetic no matter how you slice the numbers or resolve cognitive dissonance.

Nonsense. Of course, it is possible to reach out to a mere 180 people. Apparently, you have a computer, is email not available? It is impossible for me to believe that there are not contact management programs available to teachers just as they are for me a 40 year Realtor.

When I was active I had a contact list of over 1,200 people with whom I had a friendship, professional contact, listed or sold a property to or for. Monthly they were contacted by me with a letter or card. Every three months, or monthly for many, I contacted them personally by phone. Each got a hand written Christmas card.

Yes, I made my living by keeping in touch with these friends, my livelihood depended on referrals. However, you're only talking about 180 people. Quarterly I would visit, going door to door, each house in a neighborhood of 225.

1) Not all of my students have internet access at home...you should have seen my old school when I was shocked that almost none of my students knew how to even turn a computer on-let alone know how to send/receive emails.

2) I clearly said on an INDIVIDUAL basis-not sure if you missed that part or not. Sending a mass email to all parents is obviously not reaching out to them on an individual level. Do you really think it's possible to take ten minutes to write 180 emails within the first few days of school? That comes down to 1800 minutes (30 hours).

PS:

-I have stopped sending emails home to parents because they never get answered (unless the parent has emailed me first-and they all have my email)
-My district has an online grading program where parents can message me-and some do and I obviously respond to them on there. Also, all of my assignments are posted on the program so parents have access to it.

3) Contacting parents makes up a small part of my job I have:

Online classes to take for my certification, 6 hours of classes to teach a day, two lessons to plan (per day), essays/papers to grade, tests to grade, IEP/504 notes to submit, pre and post observations to plan for, PLC meetings/observations, prepare my students for their state writing test that they must pass in order to graduate, write recommendation letters, tutor students individually, etc.

Don't get me wrong: I am not complaining about my job whatsoever. I'm merely pointing out that it's not feasible for me to call or contact each parent on an individual level...hence why I said I send home a syllabus to be signed, make calls on on individual basis when necessary (this includes bad AND good calls). Believe it or not I've had plenty of parents get upset at me for contacting them (since they're so used to be contacted by the school for their child's behavior). But of course it's not their fault or their kid's fault why their kid got caught selling molly in the bathroom--they were framed by the REAL drug dealers in the school! (give me a break LOL).

Conference night is the perfect time for parents to show up...and there's crickets. The parents that do show up I absolutely offer input for them and make sure I ask them if they have any suggestions for my class-but usually it's the parents of the "A" or "B" kids that show up, and they're typically very pleased with my class. On the odd occasion they offer a suggestion-I take it seriously as I stated above.

I understand it's a bother to make it a point to contact parents on a regular basis. Saying they don't all have the internet is a cop out. You're saying you won't contact 180 parents because five don't have the internet.

A bad response from someone and I'd contact them once more and make a note to not call them again. You've gone the extra mile.

When I say they don't have the Internet it's true.

Now as I stated every student gets a syllabus from me with my phone number and school email address-so every parent should have my contact information. I make the students rip the portion to it with a parent's signature (those that don't return it or forged a signature get a call home). That's the first way I reach out.

I update all of my contact information and assignments/announcements on my class page for their parents to access.

I call parents whose child is struggling-many times their parents don't answer, aren't interested, or are afraid to talk to school personnel due to their legal status as in the us.

I invite parents to attend conference night.

Other than calling every parent on the phone (which I will do if their kid is either messing up or improving), or knocking on their doors there's not much more I can do.

If a parent contacts me (which I've clearly informed them on how to do so), I'll talk to them and be open minded (like I said a lesson I taught a few weeks ago directly came from a conversation I had with a parent in the past). It was a great lesson and honestly one I probably wouldn't have thought of on my own-so why wdid uosnt I teach it?

My problem is with the drug dealers, the kids who look up to Pablo Escobar or Jay-Z and the apathy that runs rampant in my classroom. I produce results which is why they give me "those kids" the ones that nobody else wants and I get some kind of them on the right track. The bottom line however is if parents don't care about their child's education and the child doesn't care...there's only so much I can do. I can give them the keys and the car to get to where they need to go, but if they sit around all day doing nothing and don't want to get into the car-i can't force them to.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The idea that every child will have a choice is a lie

Parents will naturally flock to the better school in the district which will quickly fill up. School choice will end up being a choice of wealthier white parents to pull their child out of a minority school

Most communities, especially rural ones, only have one school
How does school choice help them?

Lol. Do you think maybe successful schools might expand? Set up branches?

Do you think maybe rural folk might figure out how to build another school if an educational need is not being satisfied?

No they won't....most communities struggle to support the school they have

Why not use educational funds wisely? Let's stop wasting money on useless bureaucracies. Focus money on the schools that work.

Why don't you want to empower students and parents?

I agree

Why use our limited education funds on people who choose to send their kids to private school?

Because government schools are failing. If the government school is not educating ten students, that is ten students they will not have as an expense.

Specifically, why do you want to discriminate against low and moderate income people by not allowing them the same choice as more wealthy parents? How do you hope to break the cycle of poverty if all you offer to low and moderate income parents is a low and moderate education?

As for myself and my wife, we pay substantial property taxes, which are one of the primary sources of revenue for our local schools. We then paid a substantial amount for tuition, plus books and trips at a private school.

False pathos ^^^?

Of course I can't see into the hearts and minds of those who advocate for vouchers, charter schools and such. What I can do is make an inference based on the goal of conservative Republicans who hope to starve the beast, and make for-profit everything from schools to prisons to police forces to health insurance, to parks and beaches.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Very true

Should gated communities be able to take the part of their tax dollars that support police and pay for their own private force?

They pay for both.

Should they be able to withhold taxes to pay for their own security force?

That's a stupid analogy, people who have no kids can't with hold tax dollars for schools, we pay no matter what.

Good point

Why should someone who sends their kid to catholic school receive a voucher while someone without kids gets nothing

I believe you're off track. We are talking about giving a voucher to students in failing schools to allow them the same choice of schools enjoyed by more affluent parents. How is that a bad thing? How does competition harm education?

The same choice as more affluent parents? Have you considered the unintended consequences of such an integration?

Consider Johnny whose dad is a geek an has every electronic bell and whistle, and a stay at home mom who make little Johnny a hot nutritious breakfast every morning, a morning when dad and mom sit with him and talk over the breakfast table with him about the news of the day, or spend a half hour going over his school work, or present him with a new word of the day?

Compare to John Jr. whose dad works swing or grave yard, and mom works retail. Morning is rushed as mom gets ready to go to work and parks Jr. in front of the TV with a bowl of cold, sugar infested cereal.

What follows for the rest of the school day? Johnny is ready and prepared to work, and Jr's sugar high has crashed and he falls further behind each day. In a public school Jr. might receive a good breakfast, balanced with protein, not simple carbs and sugar, giving him at least a chance to compete with the children of parents more affluent.

When Johnny gets mom is waiting to talk about his school day, provide him a snack and settle him in to work on his homework before being taken to soccer or baseball or basketball or piano practice; Jr's mom is at work, dad is asleep so he grabs something like chips and a cola and head off the the park or streets to play.

Fiction? I know not, I spent a career seeing kids like Jr. in trouble, in gangs or segregated into county or continuation schools, and a vocation coaching the Johnny's (my own sons) in baseball and basketball and with my stay at home wife, established routines on when to study, when to play and when to work by taking care of assorted pets or clean their rooms, on what to eat to be healthy.

The meme on the conservative side is don't throw money at schools, don't pay teachers well and let's spend that money on private schools so affluent parents don't need to worry that Jr. will slow their learning, or worse, infect them with bad habits.

 

[Unkotare]

....

When Johnny gets mom is waiting to talk about his school day, provide him a snake and settle him in to work on his homework before being taken to soccer or baseball or basketball or piano practice.....

Why do they give Johnny a snake? Sounds dangerous.

 

[Wry Catcher]

....

When Johnny gets mom is waiting to talk about his school day, provide him a snake and settle him in to work on his homework before being taken to soccer or baseball or basketball or piano practice.....

Why do they give Johnny a snake? Sounds dangerous.

LOL, I type fast, not necessarily with much accuracy. Thus I've learned to review and edit some silly mistakes. Of course I meant that the snack of the day was on occasion a snake, better that he learn how to deal with snakes and their oil sold by salesmen, bankers and Pols at an early age.