Saving the Planet One Generator at a Time

[JohnDB]

I disagree of course. Could you specify one or more of my statements that you believe "slanted and unequal"? And perhaps you could explain what you mean by that.

I am not lying John. If you think I am, you're going to have to demonstrate it. And that the US has made great strides in reducing emissions has not saved us (the human race) from the need for further action.

Again, I have told you no lies. That you "play in energy commodity markets" doesn't help much in a discussion of physics, chemistry or thermodynamics.

So did I. Again, what lies do you believe I have told you?

Look,
What we want is cheap power that doesn't destroy the planet we live on.
Coal, the ONLY fossil fuel, is cheap but causes mercury to get into the environment in ways that are disastrous. Clean coal tech works but the Jax (byproducts) have no use like gypsum (coal ash) does with drywall.

The problem with the current demands for "green tech" is that it isn't that green except in principle. The science and economics of these aren't there yet. No different from demanding that tomorrow every bit of electricity must be derived from fusion....all other sources of electricity must be shut off.

If tomorrow EVERY new vehicle/tractor/barge sold was mandatory to be all electric, peak petroleum usage (the maximum amount of petroleum products used on a daily basis) would be realized in 30 years....consumption would not decrease for 30 YEARS and would continue to increase before actually leveling off.
AND
The problem is that personal passenger vehicles only account for 25% of petroleum usage. However the economic demand by green tech on individual citizens is massive by comparison...often encompassing a year's salary to comply. The actual logistics of such demands are often extremely intrusive in everyone's lifestyles as well when they live in multi family residences (apartments)

Automobiles did replace horses and buggies....seed and feed stores were replaced with gas stations....and there is no longer a manure problem in the streets. Which was a huge benefit for everyone that everyone agreed was indeed a benefit.
Now you are talking about a benefit that is highly contentious at best...as well as at a cost that is much much higher (by percentage of income and inconvenience of time) than what most people are comfortable with.

And your solutions are rather juvenile and simplistic at best. There are better ways to accomplish the goals without dictating the solutions. And if you asked instead of claiming to know everything and distorting facts to come to conclusions that simply aren't provable....you might actually hear something viable for a change.

 

[Crick]

You accused me of lying. I asked you to specify what lies you believe I have told. You have not done so. I don't like being called a liar, particularly when I go to some lengths to be fully honest here. Either show where I lied or retract your accusation.

Look,
What we want is cheap power that doesn't destroy the planet we live on.

What we want is power we get paid to use that turns the planet into great meadows of flowers and waterfalls. So what? What we REQUIRE is power produced without emitting greenhouse gases. It would be great if it was cheap, but I'm afraid that has become a secondary need.

Coal, the ONLY fossil fuel

Petroleum and natural gas are also fossil fuels.
"Fossil energy sources, including oil, coal and natural gas, are non-renewable resources that formed when prehistoric plants and animals died and were gradually buried by layers of rock."

Fossil

Fossil fuels -- including coal, oil and natural gas -- are drilled or mined before being burned to produce electricity, or refined for use as fuel.

www.energy.gov

is cheap but causes mercury to get into the environment in ways that are disastrous.

It does. It also produces sooty particulates and CO2.

Clean coal tech works but the Jax (byproducts) have no use like gypsum (coal ash) does with drywall.

Clean coal tech reduces NOx, SO2 and sooty particulates. It does not reduce CO2 production. And there are no simple uses for the waste products produced

The problem with the current demands for "green tech" is that it isn't that green except in principle.

The amount of fossil fuel NOT burned during the typical lifespan of a wind turbine or a solar panel is enormous. The "green"-ness of these technologies is solely responsible for the 14% decrease of fossil fuel use in the United States.

The science and economics of these aren't there yet.

Please explain.

No different from demanding that tomorrow every bit of electricity must be derived from fusion....all other sources of electricity must be shut off.

There are thousands of wind turbines and millions of solar panels in full operation today. There are NO fusion reactors on the grid and there won't be for probably at least another decade. Its coming, but not tomorrow. So, it is QUITE different.

If tomorrow EVERY new vehicle/tractor/barge sold was mandatory to be all electric, peak petroleum usage (the maximum amount of petroleum products used on a daily basis) would be realized in 30 years....consumption would not decrease for 30 YEARS and would continue to increase before actually leveling off.

I'm sorry but that is demonstrably incorrect.

AND
The problem is that personal passenger vehicles only account for 25% of petroleum usage.

That is incorrect. Transportation accounts for 27% of US total energy consumption but accounts for over 88% of all petroleum consumption.

Use of energy for transportation - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Types and amounts of energy sources used for transportation in the United States.

www.eia.gov

However the economic demand by green tech on individual citizens is massive by comparison...often encompassing a year's salary to comply.

The average price of a gasoline powered car today is $33,800. The average price of a hybrid is $39,040. The average price for an EV is $67,000.
CORRECTION: Kelly's Blue Book just released updated numbers following copious price cuts. The average price for a new EV is down to $53,438, a 20% reduction.

The actual logistics of such demands are often extremely intrusive in everyone's lifestyles as well when they live in multi family residences (apartments)

I assume you're referring to home chargers. That is an issue but as should be obvious, we are in a transition. New construction housing more and more often comes complete with charging equipment standard.

Automobiles did replace horses and buggies....seed and feed stores were replaced with gas stations....and there is no longer a manure problem in the streets.

Which was quite an intrusive demand, wasn't it. If you told someone from 1905 that in the next century the US would have to build 168,000 gas stations across the country and the refining capacity to produce 135 billion gallons of gasoline a year, they'd have gone dizzy

Which was a huge benefit for everyone that everyone agreed was indeed a benefit.

Farmers lost a huge source of fertilizer. People even then complained about the air pollution and the noise.

Now you are talking about a benefit that is highly contentious at best...

It is not the least bit contentious among people with a basic science education.

as well as at a cost that is much much higher (by percentage of income and inconvenience of time) than what most people are comfortable with.

As I have argued here on numerous occasions, the cost of dealing with this issue could have been FAR less had we done so when we first learned of it. Putting off dealing with problems, particularly problems that are growing worse over time, is NEVER a good strategy. And you KNOW that.

And your solutions are rather juvenile and simplistic at best.

Your rejection of any reasonable solution is indefensible.

There are better ways to accomplish the goals without dictating the solutions. And if you asked instead of claiming to know everything and distorting facts to come to conclusions that simply aren't provable....you might actually hear something viable for a change.

I have asked. I ask the experts. I ask the people who can best be relied on to find causes and provide solutions. I do not distort facts. I do not present unprovable conclusions (beyond the FACT that there are no proofs in the natural sciences) and I have heard NOTHING viable from you as of yet. If you think you have a better solution to AGW, other than do nothing, I'd love to hear it.

 

[JohnDB]

That is incorrect. Transportation accounts for 27% of US total energy consumption but accounts for over 88% of all petroleum consumption.

Absolutely false....
It is NOT personal vehicles...it is commercial vehicles like tractor trailer rigs and ocean freight that consumes the lion's share amount of diesel and gasoline. They might still count as transportation but the way you have stated it leaves the "individual" guilty and responsible when in fact its actually corporations and normal business that uses the fuel. And petroleum is NOT fossil fuel. Hydrocarbon petroleum fuels are the result of naturally occurring environments that are not necessarily from organic residues. Coal is the only fossil fuel. Petroleum is not. Where it is renewable it does not renew very quickly or quickly enough to meet current demand. Yellow coal however can be a renewable resource by using Jax from various processes including farming and lumber industries.

Try again.

Once again you claim to have ALL the facts but demonstrate your unwillingness to actually relate truth from the facts by misrepresenting the truth....which in essence is a lie. (You asked for an example of your lies and now I have given you one out of a plethora...I am not going to waste time explaining the rest)

And again you only want the solutions that you are promoting instead of viable solutions that would actually work.

 

[Crick]

You still have not addressed your accusations that I lied. I will not wait much longer.

Absolutely false....
It is NOT personal vehicles...it is commercial vehicles like tractor trailer rigs and ocean freight that consumes the lion's share amount of diesel and gasoline. They might still count as transportation but the way you have stated it leaves the "individual" guilty and responsible when in fact its actually corporations and normal business that uses the fuel.

I used the term "transportation" with the complete knowledge that it includes personal vehicles, commercial vehicles and trucks, ships, planes and trains. The two major consumers of fossil fuels have always been transportation and energy generation. I have never suggested otherwise. You brought up personal transportation. Your charges that I am attempting to lay special blame on the individual is simply not supported by my posts here.

And petroleum is NOT fossil fuel.

I'm sorry but you simply don't know what you're talking about.

"We call crude oil and petroleum fossil fuels because they are mixtures of hydrocarbons that formed from the remains of animals and plants (diatoms) that lived millions of years ago in a marine environment before dinosaurs existed."

Oil and petroleum products explained - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

An introduction to crude oil and the products that are produced from crude oil refining.

www.eia.gov

"Millions of years ago, algae and plants lived in shallow seas. After dying and sinking to the seafloor, the organic material mixed with other sediments and was buried. Over millions of years under high pressure and high temperature, the remains of these organisms transformed into what we know today as fossil fuels. Coal, natural gas, and petroleum are all fossil fuels that formed under similar conditions. "

Petroleum

Petroleum, or crude oil, is a fossil fuel and nonrenewable source of energy.

education.nationalgeographic.org

"Petroleum, natural gas and coal come from biomass, primarily from plankton and decaying marine organisms, and “single-celled bacteria” that “evolved in the Earth’s oceans about three billion years ago.” Over millions of years, layers of sediment built up, along with plants (plankton and algae) and bacteria. Heat and pressure began to rise. The degree of heat and the amount of pressure, along with the type of biomass, determine if the material becomes petroleum or natural gas."

Sorry, folks, oil does not come from dinosaurs

Petroleum is made from aquatic phytoplankton and zooplankton, and because petroleum is created by biomass, plastic also is a form of biomass.

www.plasticstoday.com

"Fossil energy sources, including oil, coal and natural gas, are non-renewable resources that formed when prehistoric plants and animals died and were gradually buried by layers of rock. Over millions of years, different types of fossil fuels formed -- depending on what combination of organic matter was present, how long it was buried and what temperature and pressure conditions existed as time passed."

Fossil

Fossil fuels -- including coal, oil and natural gas -- are drilled or mined before being burned to produce electricity, or refined for use as fuel.

www.energy.gov

Hydrocarbon petroleum fuels are the result of naturally occurring environments that are not necessarily from organic residues. Coal is the only fossil fuel. Petroleum is not. Where it is renewable it does not renew very quickly or quickly enough to meet current demand. Yellow coal however can be a renewable resource by using Jax from various processes including farming and lumber industries.

You and a few others (see the the plasticstoday link above) seem to be under the impression that fossils only come from dinosaurs. That is incorrect. Think of the fossilized shellfish you've probably seen in a thousand different rocks. Those ancient molluscs aren't dinosaurs, are they.

Try again.

Some advice you could put to good use.

Once again you claim to have ALL the facts

I have never made such a claim.

but demonstrate your unwillingness to actually relate truth from the facts by misrepresenting the truth....which in essence is a lie. (You asked for an example of your lies and now I have given you one out of a plethora...I am not going to waste time explaining the rest)

If you think ANYONE here believes that to be a valid answer or to actually identify any falsehood I've presented, you need to check back in to the First Grade.

And again you only want the solutions that you are promoting instead of viable solutions that would actually work.

What I want to do is to educate you and a lot of others here to the basic, fundamental science that shows global warming is real, it is a real threat, and that to deal with it we need to stop burning fossil fuels as quickly as we can.

I'd also like you to apologize for having falsely accused me of lying.

 

[JohnDB]

You still have not addressed your accusations that I lied. I will not wait much longer.

I used the term "transportation" with the complete knowledge that it includes personal vehicles, commercial vehicles and trucks, ships, planes and trains. The two major consumers of fossil fuels have always been transportation and energy generation. I have never suggested otherwise. You brought up personal transportation. Your charges that I am attempting to lay special blame on the individual is simply not supported by my posts here.

I'm sorry but you simply don't know what you're talking about.

"We call crude oil and petroleum fossil fuels because they are mixtures of hydrocarbons that formed from the remains of animals and plants (diatoms) that lived millions of years ago in a marine environment before dinosaurs existed."

Oil and petroleum products explained - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

An introduction to crude oil and the products that are produced from crude oil refining.

www.eia.gov

"Millions of years ago, algae and plants lived in shallow seas. After dying and sinking to the seafloor, the organic material mixed with other sediments and was buried. Over millions of years under high pressure and high temperature, the remains of these organisms transformed into what we know today as fossil fuels. Coal, natural gas, and petroleum are all fossil fuels that formed under similar conditions. "

Petroleum

Petroleum, or crude oil, is a fossil fuel and nonrenewable source of energy.

education.nationalgeographic.org

"Petroleum, natural gas and coal come from biomass, primarily from plankton and decaying marine organisms, and “single-celled bacteria” that “evolved in the Earth’s oceans about three billion years ago.” Over millions of years, layers of sediment built up, along with plants (plankton and algae) and bacteria. Heat and pressure began to rise. The degree of heat and the amount of pressure, along with the type of biomass, determine if the material becomes petroleum or natural gas."

Sorry, folks, oil does not come from dinosaurs

Petroleum is made from aquatic phytoplankton and zooplankton, and because petroleum is created by biomass, plastic also is a form of biomass.

www.plasticstoday.com

"Fossil energy sources, including oil, coal and natural gas, are non-renewable resources that formed when prehistoric plants and animals died and were gradually buried by layers of rock. Over millions of years, different types of fossil fuels formed -- depending on what combination of organic matter was present, how long it was buried and what temperature and pressure conditions existed as time passed."

Fossil

Fossil fuels -- including coal, oil and natural gas -- are drilled or mined before being burned to produce electricity, or refined for use as fuel.

www.energy.gov

You and a few others (see the the plasticstoday link above) seem to be under the impression that fossils only come from dinosaurs. That is incorrect. Think of the fossilized shellfish you've probably seen in a thousand different rocks. Those ancient molluscs aren't dinosaurs, are they.


Some advice you could put to good use.

I have never made such a claim.

If you think ANYONE here believes that to be a valid answer or to actually identify any falsehood I've presented, you need to check back in to the First Grade.

What I want to do is to educate you and a lot of others here to the basic, fundamental science that shows global warming is real, it is a real threat, and that to deal with it we need to stop burning fossil fuels as quickly as we can.

I'd also like you to apologize for having falsely accused me of lying.

Petroleum is NOT made of fossils the way coal is...it's not plankton or any other nonsense....been proven conclusively for decades now to NOT be fossil fuel but you (and others) keep repeating the nonsense.

It's from certain elements under particular environments that create the hydrocarbon petroleums....and yes there is more than one type of petroleum.

But you refuse to admit you lied by misrepresenting the truth claiming I have yet to prove you are a liar...you are now on ignore...I'm out.

 

[Crick]

Petroleum is NOT made of fossils the way coal is...it's not plankton or any other nonsense....

How many quotes and links is it going to take to convince you that you're wrong?

"Over millions of years, the remains of these animals and plants were covered by layers of sand, silt, and rock. Heat and pressure from these layers turned the remains into what we now call crude oil or petroleum. The word petroleum means rock oil or oil from the earth.

Oil and petroleum products explained - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

An introduction to crude oil and the products that are produced from crude oil refining.

www.eia.gov

Petroleum, also called crude oil, is a fossil fuel. Like coal and natural gas, petroleum was formed from the remains of ancient marine organisms, such as plants, algae, and bacteria. Over millions of years of intense heat and pressure, these organic remains (fossils) transformed into carbon-rich substances we rely on as raw materials for fuel and a wide variety of products.

Petroleum

Petroleum, or crude oil, is a fossil fuel and nonrenewable source of energy.

education.nationalgeographic.org

Oil and gas are formed from organic material mainly deposited as sediments on the seabed and then broken down and transformed over millions of years. If there is a suitable combination of source rock, reservoir rock, cap rock and a trap in an area, recoverable oil and gas deposits may be discovered there.

How is petroleum formed? - Norwegianpetroleum.no

Description of how organic material is transformed to petroleum, how petroleum moves in the porous rocks, and how a reservoir is formed.

www.norskpetroleum.no

Oil or petroleum is a readily combustable fossil fuel that is composed mainly of carbon and hydrogen, and is thus known as a hydrocarbon. The formation of oil takes a significant amount of time with oil beginning to form millions of years ago. 70% of oil deposits existing today were formed in the Mesozoic age (252 to 66 million years ago), 20% were formed in the Cenozoic age (65 million years ago), and only 10% were formed in the Paleozoic age (541 to 252 million years ago). This is likely because the Mesozoic age was marked by a tropical climate, with large amounts of plankton in the ocean.

The formation of oil begins in warm, shallow oceans that were present on the Earth millions of years ago. In these oceans, extremely small dead organic matter - classified as plankton - falls to the floor of the ocean. This plankton consists of animals, called zooplankton, or plants, called phytoplankton. This material then lands on the ocean floor and mixes with inorganic material that enters the ocean by rivers. It is this sediment on the ocean floor that then forms oil over many years. The energy in oil initially comes from the Sun, and is energy from sunlight that is trapped in chemical form by dead plankton.

Oil formation - Energy Education

energyeducation.ca

been proven conclusively for decades now to NOT be fossil fuel but you (and others) keep repeating the nonsense.

Those "others" would seem to be the world's actual oil experts whereas your claimed expertise comes from trading stocks on your laptop. Last time I checked, that sort of activity didn't actually come with a lot of science education.

It's from certain elements under particular environments that create the hydrocarbon petroleums....and yes there is more than one type of petroleum.

Certain elements? Are you aware of the difference between organic and inorganic chemistry?

But you refuse to admit you lied by misrepresenting the truth claiming I have yet to prove you are a liar...you are now on ignore...I'm out.

I am not going to admit I'm a liar when I have not lied and you haven't even identified where you think I lied. You've put me on ignore because I've embarrassed you and I've embarrassed you because I showed that you've been ranting regarding shit about which you haven't a fucking clue. Enjoy your silence. I will.