Roman artifacts and 4000 year old trees found in alpine glaciers

[Crick]

I suspect you may not recognize the acronyms I used.

FAR - First Assessment Report
SAR - Second Assessment Report
TAR - Third Assessment Report
FAR - Fourth Assessment Report
AR5 - Fifth Assessment Report

These are the assessment reports of the IPCC. They are thousands of pages long. They are publicly available - no paywalls. They may all be accessed via IPCC - Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

AGWCult responds:

Ah OK, so Global Warming ended the Roman Empire

 

[Crick]

I have no idea where you got that. My last two posts were in response to JC456's claim that we "alarmists" had no evidence to support our position. This is a fairly frequent denier claim and is patent nonsense.

 

[jc456]

I have no idea where you got that. My last two posts were in response to JC456's claim that we "alarmists" had no evidence to support our position. This is a fairly frequent denier claim and is patent nonsense.

what two responses?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

So, you believe the reports that Hannibal crossed the alps with his army and his elephants but you don't believe the exact same reports when they describe the climate of the area at the time.

Good thinking that.

From Wikipedia's article on Mr Hannibal

Hannibal recognized that he still needed to cross the Pyrenees, the Alps, and many significant rivers.[24] Additionally, he would have to contend with opposition from the Gauls, whose territory he passed through. Starting in the spring of 218 BC, he crossed the Pyrenees and, by conciliating the Gaulish chiefs along his passage, reached the River Rhône before the Romans could take any measures to bar his advance. Arriving at the Rhône in September, Hannibal's army numbered 38,000 infantry, 8,000 cavalry, and 38 elephants, almost all of which would not survive the harsh conditions of the Alps.[25]

After outmaneuvering the natives, who had tried to prevent his crossing, Hannibal evaded a Roman force marching from the Mediterranean coast by turning inland up the valley of the Rhône. His exact route over the Alps has been the source of scholarly dispute ever since. (Polybius, the surviving ancient account closest in time to Hannibal's campaign, reports that the route was already debated.) The most influential modern theories favor either a march up the valley of the Drôme and a crossing of the main range to the south of the modern highway over the Col de Montgenèvre or a march farther north up the valleys of the Isère and Arc crossing the main range near the present Col de Mont Cenis or the Little St Bernard Pass.[26] Recent numismatic evidence suggests that Hannibal's army may have passed within sight of the Matterhorn.[27]

By Livy's account the crossing was accomplished in the face of huge difficulties.[28] These Hannibal surmounted with ingenuity, such as when he used vinegar and fire to break through a rockfall.[29] According to Polybius he arrived in Italy accompanied by 20,000 foot soldiers and 4,000 horsemen, and only a few elephants. The fired rockfall event is mentioned only by Livy; Polybius is mute on the subject and there is no evidence[30]of carbonized rock at the only two-tier rockfall in the Western Alps, located below the Col de la Traversette (Mahaney, 2008). If Polybius is correct in his figure for the number of troops he commanded after the crossing of the Rhône, this would suggest that he had lost almost half of his force.
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Hardly a pleasant stroll.

I dont see any mention of glaciers,only harsh conditions.

 

[SSDD]

So, you believe the reports that Hannibal crossed the alps with his army and his elephants but you don't believe the exact same reports when they describe the climate of the area at the time.

Good thinking that.

From Wikipedia's article on Mr Hannibal

Hannibal recognized that he still needed to cross the Pyrenees, the Alps, and many significant rivers.[24] Additionally, he would have to contend with opposition from the Gauls, whose territory he passed through. Starting in the spring of 218 BC, he crossed the Pyrenees and, by conciliating the Gaulish chiefs along his passage, reached the River Rhône before the Romans could take any measures to bar his advance. Arriving at the Rhône in September, Hannibal's army numbered 38,000 infantry, 8,000 cavalry, and 38 elephants, almost all of which would not survive the harsh conditions of the Alps.[25]

After outmaneuvering the natives, who had tried to prevent his crossing, Hannibal evaded a Roman force marching from the Mediterranean coast by turning inland up the valley of the Rhône. His exact route over the Alps has been the source of scholarly dispute ever since. (Polybius, the surviving ancient account closest in time to Hannibal's campaign, reports that the route was already debated.) The most influential modern theories favor either a march up the valley of the Drôme and a crossing of the main range to the south of the modern highway over the Col de Montgenèvre or a march farther north up the valleys of the Isère and Arc crossing the main range near the present Col de Mont Cenis or the Little St Bernard Pass.[26] Recent numismatic evidence suggests that Hannibal's army may have passed within sight of the Matterhorn.[27]

By Livy's account the crossing was accomplished in the face of huge difficulties.[28] These Hannibal surmounted with ingenuity, such as when he used vinegar and fire to break through a rockfall.[29] According to Polybius he arrived in Italy accompanied by 20,000 foot soldiers and 4,000 horsemen, and only a few elephants. The fired rockfall event is mentioned only by Livy; Polybius is mute on the subject and there is no evidence[30]of carbonized rock at the only two-tier rockfall in the Western Alps, located below the Col de la Traversette (Mahaney, 2008). If Polybius is correct in his figure for the number of troops he commanded after the crossing of the Rhône, this would suggest that he had lost almost half of his force.
**********************************************************************************
Hardly a pleasant stroll.

I dont see any mention of glaciers,only harsh conditions.

Yeah, I didn't see any mention of glaciers either....you can bet if he took elephants across, they weren't there.

 

[jc456]

I found this gem while looking for studies on 120PPM of CO2.

"What's the magic number?
Stabilize at 350 ppm or risk ice-free planet, warn NASA, Yale, Sheffield, Versailles, Boston et al
By Joseph Romm
11 Nov 2008 8:12 AM comments
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Stabilize at 350 ppm or risk ice-free planet, warn NASA, Yale, Sheffield, Versailles, Boston et al
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The good news: We canavoid multimeter sea-level rise, the loss of the inland glaciers that provide water to a billion people, rapid expansion of the subtropical deserts, and mass extinctions — each of which is all-but inevitable on our current path of unrestrained greenhouse gas emissions."

So if a glacier is made up of snow and ice, how is it it can supply fresh water to a billion people? One of you warmers, can you explain how ice supplies water?

Doesn't that infer it melts? hmmmmmm.....

 

[Crick]

Is it that you don't bother to think about these things before you post or that you think about them as much as you are able and arrive at these same conundrums?

Have you ever heard of the seasons? There's this one they call "summer"...

 

[bripat9643]

So, you believe the reports that Hannibal crossed the alps with his army and his elephants but you don't believe the exact same reports when they describe the climate of the area at the time.

Good thinking that.

From Wikipedia's article on Mr Hannibal

Hannibal recognized that he still needed to cross the Pyrenees, the Alps, and many significant rivers.[24] Additionally, he would have to contend with opposition from the Gauls, whose territory he passed through. Starting in the spring of 218 BC, he crossed the Pyrenees and, by conciliating the Gaulish chiefs along his passage, reached the River Rhône before the Romans could take any measures to bar his advance. Arriving at the Rhône in September, Hannibal's army numbered 38,000 infantry, 8,000 cavalry, and 38 elephants, almost all of which would not survive the harsh conditions of the Alps.[25]

After outmaneuvering the natives, who had tried to prevent his crossing, Hannibal evaded a Roman force marching from the Mediterranean coast by turning inland up the valley of the Rhône. His exact route over the Alps has been the source of scholarly dispute ever since. (Polybius, the surviving ancient account closest in time to Hannibal's campaign, reports that the route was already debated.) The most influential modern theories favor either a march up the valley of the Drôme and a crossing of the main range to the south of the modern highway over the Col de Montgenèvre or a march farther north up the valleys of the Isère and Arc crossing the main range near the present Col de Mont Cenis or the Little St Bernard Pass.[26] Recent numismatic evidence suggests that Hannibal's army may have passed within sight of the Matterhorn.[27]

By Livy's account the crossing was accomplished in the face of huge difficulties.[28] These Hannibal surmounted with ingenuity, such as when he used vinegar and fire to break through a rockfall.[29] According to Polybius he arrived in Italy accompanied by 20,000 foot soldiers and 4,000 horsemen, and only a few elephants. The fired rockfall event is mentioned only by Livy; Polybius is mute on the subject and there is no evidence[30]of carbonized rock at the only two-tier rockfall in the Western Alps, located below the Col de la Traversette (Mahaney, 2008). If Polybius is correct in his figure for the number of troops he commanded after the crossing of the Rhône, this would suggest that he had lost almost half of his force.
**********************************************************************************
Hardly a pleasant stroll.

I don't see any mention of blizzards or glaciers.

 

[Crick]

That's true. He crossed in summer and stayed in valleys where he could.

I have to say I don't really care about this discussion. It doesn't mean much of anything.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

That's true. But what do you think killed most of his elephants and half of his army? Malaria?

Treacherous conditions? Like maybe the mountains they were going through?
I mean last time I checked elephants weren't exactly suited for mountainous terrain.
And food would be a problem as well. Not to many animals or edible plants in the mountains.

 

[SSDD]

That's true. He crossed in summer and stayed in valleys where he could.

I have to say I don't really care about this discussion. It doesn't mean much of anything.

Don't glaciers form in valleys? And of course you don't care...it highlights the falsity of warmer claims of unprecedented retreat of glaciers.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Receding Swiss glaciers incoveniently reveal 4000 year old forests 8211 and make it clear that glacier retreat is nothing new Watts Up With That

Dr. Christian Schlüchter’s discovery of 4,000-year-old chunks of wood at the leading edge of a Swiss glacier was clearly not cheered by many members of the global warming doom-and-gloom science orthodoxy.

This finding indicated that the Alps were pretty nearly glacier-free at that time, disproving accepted theories that they only began retreating after the end of the little ice age in the mid-19th century.
Dr. Schlüchter’s report might have been more conveniently dismissed by the entrenched global warming establishment were it not for his distinguished reputation as a giant in the field of geology and paleoclimatology who has authored/coauthored more than 250 papers and is a professor emeritus at the University of Bern in Switzerland.

Then he made himself even more unpopular thanks to a recent interview titled “Our Society is Fundamentally Dishonest” which appeared in the Swiss publication Der Bund where he criticized the U.N.-dominated institutional climate science hierarchy for extreme tunnel vision and political contamination.

Following the ancient forest evidence discovery Schlüchter became a target of scorn. As he observes in the interview, “I wasn’t supposed to find that chunk of wood because I didn’t belong to the close-knit circle of Holocene and climate researchers. My findings thus caught many experts off guard: Now an ‘amateur’ had found something that the [more recent time-focused] Holocene and climate experts should have found.”

Other evidence exists that there is really nothing new about dramatic glacier advances and retreats. In fact the Alps were nearly glacier-free again about 2,000 years ago

The Coming and Going of Glaciers A New Alpine Melt Theory - SPIEGEL ONLINE

The Coming and Going of Glaciers: A New Alpine Melt Theory
The Alpine glaciers are shrinking, that much we know. But new research suggests that in the time of the Roman Empire, they were smaller than today. And 7,000 years ago they probably weren't around at all. A group of climatologists have come up with a controversial new theory on how the Alps must have looked over the ages.

Ulrich Joerin, a wiry Swiss scientist in his late twenties, is part of a small group of climatologists who are in the process of radically changing the image of the Swiss mountain world. He and a colleague are standing in front of the Tschierva Glacier in Engadin, Switzerland at 2,200 meters (7,217 feet). "A few thousand years ago, there were no glaciers here at all," he says. "Back then we would have been standing in the middle of a forest." He digs into the ground with his mountain boot until something dark appears: an old tree trunk, covered in ice, polished by water and almost black with humidity. "And here is the proof," says Joerin.
The glaciers, according to the new hypothesis, have shrunk down to almost nothing at least ten times since the last ice age 10,000 years ago. "At the time of the Roman Empire, for example, the glacier tongue was about 300 meters higher than today," says Joerin. Indeed, Hannibal probably never saw a single big chunk of ice when he was crossing the Alps with his army.
Joerin admits his theory goes against conventional wisdom. "It is hard to imagine that the glaciers, as we know them, were not the norm in past millennia, but rather an exception," he says while he and his companions dig out the tree trunk with shovels, axes and bare hands.

Indeed, critics accuse him and his colleagues of relying on a thin and ambivalent layer of facts. The Green Alpinists respond to the argument their own way: with a large orange chain saw. Kurt Nicolussi, a slender man in his late 40s, slices a slab of wood as large as a wiener schnitzel out of the trunk and analyzes it. "At least 400 annual rings, well preserved, perhaps the best sample we have ever had," he declares proudly.

Hey I wonder if these huge trees we found in the sand near Thule Greenland and Fort Conger/Ellesmere Island are from the same time period as the trees Schluechter found in the Swiss alpine glaciers

When we found them we should have sent them to Michael Mann so he could make hockey sticks out of them

imagine that

 

[jon_berzerk]

So about those forests and human artifacts found under retreating glaciers...what does that say about the claims of unprecedented warming in the present? Anyone?

that it is a bunch of hogwash

 

[SSDD]

So about those forests and human artifacts found under retreating glaciers...what does that say about the claims of unprecedented warming in the present? Anyone?

that it is a bunch of hogwash

Excellent observation.

 

[Crick]

Really? You think the status of a single glacier a couple millennia back refutes the mountains of evidence supporting warming in the last 150 years?

Desperate clinging to slivers of straws.