Right of return

[Jos]

Both links you gave are zionist biased, try this
United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hossfly]

Both links you gave are zionist biased, try this
United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's an acceptable link. Explains a lot.
My summary is: The Palestinians, acting under Arab League guidance will never recognize Israel.
My conclusion: Quoting a proclamation by a Jewish friend of mine I can state that in my lifetime and my children's lifetimes, and in my grand children's and great-grand children's lifetimes, there will never be a sovereign State of Palestine. You can take that to the bank. And the West Bank.

Thanks, ESP

 

[P F Tinmore]

Got a brain? We've been through this before.

The Arab population declined from about 93% at the turn of the century to about 65% by 1948.

That is some Arab immigration you have there.

You are profoundly dishonest. At the turn of the century, the territory of Palestine included what would become Trans Jordan, but by 1948, the territory of Palestine consisted only of the area west of the Jordan River. When you compare the population of the area that now includes Israel, the disputed territories and Jordan at the turn of the century with the population of the area west of the Jordan River in 1948, you are being intentionally deceitful because you understand that the facts do not support your positions. Once again, here are the facts.

According the the first British report to the League of Nations, there were about 76,000 Jews in the area west of the Jordan River and about 78,000 Arabs, but by 1948, the Arab population had jumped from 78,000 to 1,200,000, and increase of more than 1500%, a feat that would have been impossible to achieve in 27 years without massive Arab immigration into the area. In fact, studies of stable communities in the West Bank that experienced no economic development and thus attracted few Arab immigrants showed the increase in population from 1922 to 1944 to be no more than 70%, meaning that without Arab immigration, the total Arab population west of the Jordan River would have been no greater than 132,600 by 1944 and only slightly greater than that four years later in 1948 and that more than 90% of the Arabs living west of the Jordan River in 1948 arrived after the British did.

Jewish population growth during the same period was also due largely to immigration but not on as massive scale as Arab immigration. Approximately two Arabs arrived for each Jew that did, and this explains why in 1948 there were approximately two Arabs living west of the Jordan River for each Jew who lived there. Bottom line, in your terms, over 83% of the people, both Arabs and Jews, living west of the Jordan River in 1948 were "foreigners".

An Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine to the League of Nations, June 1921

The Immigration of Egyptian Workers to the land of Israel during the British Mandate/ DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak | Rivka Shpak Lissak

The numbers you gave for the Arab population were not in your link. However this was.

Immigration and Travel.--Since the ports of Palestine were opened to immigration, with certain restrictions, in August, 1920, slightly over 10,000 immigrants have arrived in the country. These were almost all Jewish; only 315 non-Jewish immigrants were registered. Of the Jews, 8084 came under the auspices of the Zionist Organisation and 1815 came independently.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The Arab population declined from about 93% at the turn of the century to about 65% by 1948.

That is some Arab immigration you have there.

You are profoundly dishonest. At the turn of the century, the territory of Palestine included what would become Trans Jordan, but by 1948, the territory of Palestine consisted only of the area west of the Jordan River. When you compare the population of the area that now includes Israel, the disputed territories and Jordan at the turn of the century with the population of the area west of the Jordan River in 1948, you are being intentionally deceitful because you understand that the facts do not support your positions. Once again, here are the facts.

According the the first British report to the League of Nations, there were about 76,000 Jews in the area west of the Jordan River and about 78,000 Arabs, but by 1948, the Arab population had jumped from 78,000 to 1,200,000, and increase of more than 1500%, a feat that would have been impossible to achieve in 27 years without massive Arab immigration into the area. In fact, studies of stable communities in the West Bank that experienced no economic development and thus attracted few Arab immigrants showed the increase in population from 1922 to 1944 to be no more than 70%, meaning that without Arab immigration, the total Arab population west of the Jordan River would have been no greater than 132,600 by 1944 and only slightly greater than that four years later in 1948 and that more than 90% of the Arabs living west of the Jordan River in 1948 arrived after the British did.

Jewish population growth during the same period was also due largely to immigration but not on as massive scale as Arab immigration. Approximately two Arabs arrived for each Jew that did, and this explains why in 1948 there were approximately two Arabs living west of the Jordan River for each Jew who lived there. Bottom line, in your terms, over 83% of the people, both Arabs and Jews, living west of the Jordan River in 1948 were "foreigners".

An Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine to the League of Nations, June 1921

The Immigration of Egyptian Workers to the land of Israel during the British Mandate/ DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak | Rivka Shpak Lissak

The numbers you gave for the Arab population were not in your link. However this was.

Immigration and Travel.--Since the ports of Palestine were opened to immigration, with certain restrictions, in August, 1920, slightly over 10,000 immigrants have arrived in the country. These were almost all Jewish; only 315 non-Jewish immigrants were registered. Of the Jews, 8084 came under the auspices of the Zionist Organisation and 1815 came independently.

What is lacking in this discussion is any sign of intelligence or integrity on your part. As you know, the numbers I used are, of course, from the links I provided. From the British report to the League of Nations, there were 700,000 people in all of the Palestine territory, including Jordan. Since the area west of the Jordan River constitutes about 22% of the territory, the population in that area was about 154,000. The report specifies there were 76,000 Jews. which means there were no more than 78,000 Arabs there. Since large numbers of Egyptians followed the British army into the territory, it is likely that before WWI, Jews constituted an absolute majority west of the Jordan River, and since nearly all the Jews settled on the coastal plain, it is a virtual certainty that in 1921 Jews constituted an absolute majority of the population in what would become pre 1967 Israel.

The fact that without Arab immigration, the Arab population would have increased by no more than 70% is established by population studies cited in the second link. For those who can do arithmetic, this means the Arab population in 1948 would have been little more than 132,000 without massive Arab immigration between 1921 and 1948, and this means that 90% of the Arabs there were, in your terms, foreigners.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Both links you gave are zionist biased, try this
United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, once again you have no substantial arguments to make but just wanted to state you don't trust anything touched by a Jew. That's pretty much the same message you've been sending out with every post.

 

[Peach]

UN Resolution 194

According to UN Res 194

When they raise Leon Klinghoffer from the grave, we'll talk,

Leon Klinghoffer's body washed ashore in Syria, and was found on October 15 and returned to the United States. An autopsy showed that Leon had died by drowning, and not by the bullets that had been fired into him.

Leon Klinghoffer (1916 - 1985) - Find A Grave Memorial

[youtube]WtGKXTkSwuo[/youtube]

********************************************************
Talks should include Jordan. Why do they get off the hook? Thank you for the post about Klinghoffer, Dante.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You are profoundly dishonest. At the turn of the century, the territory of Palestine included what would become Trans Jordan, but by 1948, the territory of Palestine consisted only of the area west of the Jordan River. When you compare the population of the area that now includes Israel, the disputed territories and Jordan at the turn of the century with the population of the area west of the Jordan River in 1948, you are being intentionally deceitful because you understand that the facts do not support your positions. Once again, here are the facts.

According the the first British report to the League of Nations, there were about 76,000 Jews in the area west of the Jordan River and about 78,000 Arabs, but by 1948, the Arab population had jumped from 78,000 to 1,200,000, and increase of more than 1500%, a feat that would have been impossible to achieve in 27 years without massive Arab immigration into the area. In fact, studies of stable communities in the West Bank that experienced no economic development and thus attracted few Arab immigrants showed the increase in population from 1922 to 1944 to be no more than 70%, meaning that without Arab immigration, the total Arab population west of the Jordan River would have been no greater than 132,600 by 1944 and only slightly greater than that four years later in 1948 and that more than 90% of the Arabs living west of the Jordan River in 1948 arrived after the British did.

Jewish population growth during the same period was also due largely to immigration but not on as massive scale as Arab immigration. Approximately two Arabs arrived for each Jew that did, and this explains why in 1948 there were approximately two Arabs living west of the Jordan River for each Jew who lived there. Bottom line, in your terms, over 83% of the people, both Arabs and Jews, living west of the Jordan River in 1948 were "foreigners".

An Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine to the League of Nations, June 1921

The Immigration of Egyptian Workers to the land of Israel during the British Mandate/ DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak | Rivka Shpak Lissak

The numbers you gave for the Arab population were not in your link. However this was.

Immigration and Travel.--Since the ports of Palestine were opened to immigration, with certain restrictions, in August, 1920, slightly over 10,000 immigrants have arrived in the country. These were almost all Jewish; only 315 non-Jewish immigrants were registered. Of the Jews, 8084 came under the auspices of the Zionist Organisation and 1815 came independently.

What is lacking in this discussion is any sign of intelligence or integrity on your part. As you know, the numbers I used are, of course, from the links I provided. From the British report to the League of Nations, there were 700,000 people in all of the Palestine territory, including Jordan. Since the area west of the Jordan River constitutes about 22% of the territory, the population in that area was about 154,000. The report specifies there were 76,000 Jews. which means there were no more than 78,000 Arabs there. Since large numbers of Egyptians followed the British army into the territory, it is likely that before WWI, Jews constituted an absolute majority west of the Jordan River, and since nearly all the Jews settled on the coastal plain, it is a virtual certainty that in 1921 Jews constituted an absolute majority of the population in what would become pre 1967 Israel.

The fact that without Arab immigration, the Arab population would have increased by no more than 70% is established by population studies cited in the second link. For those who can do arithmetic, this means the Arab population in 1948 would have been little more than 132,000 without massive Arab immigration between 1921 and 1948, and this means that 90% of the Arabs there were, in your terms, foreigners.

Since the area west of the Jordan River constitutes about 22% of the territory, the population in that area was about 154,000.

Your theory is based on false premise. Transjordan was sparsely populated.

Palestine had many major cities (Jerusalem, Gaza, Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, Bethlehem, etc.) and hundreds of villages.

Name three major cities in Transjordan.

 

[Hossfly]

The numbers you gave for the Arab population were not in your link. However this was.

What is lacking in this discussion is any sign of intelligence or integrity on your part. As you know, the numbers I used are, of course, from the links I provided. From the British report to the League of Nations, there were 700,000 people in all of the Palestine territory, including Jordan. Since the area west of the Jordan River constitutes about 22% of the territory, the population in that area was about 154,000. The report specifies there were 76,000 Jews. which means there were no more than 78,000 Arabs there. Since large numbers of Egyptians followed the British army into the territory, it is likely that before WWI, Jews constituted an absolute majority west of the Jordan River, and since nearly all the Jews settled on the coastal plain, it is a virtual certainty that in 1921 Jews constituted an absolute majority of the population in what would become pre 1967 Israel.

The fact that without Arab immigration, the Arab population would have increased by no more than 70% is established by population studies cited in the second link. For those who can do arithmetic, this means the Arab population in 1948 would have been little more than 132,000 without massive Arab immigration between 1921 and 1948, and this means that 90% of the Arabs there were, in your terms, foreigners.

Since the area west of the Jordan River constitutes about 22% of the territory, the population in that area was about 154,000.

Your theory is based on false premise. Transjordan was sparsely populated.

Palestine had many major cities (Jerusalem, Gaza, Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, Bethlehem, etc.) and hundreds of villages.

Name three major cities in Transjordan.

Tinmore, if facts confuse you, don't you think Encyclopaedia would help you out? You would have to agree it is the most un-biased source in the world. You're welcome to try it out.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The numbers you gave for the Arab population were not in your link. However this was.

What is lacking in this discussion is any sign of intelligence or integrity on your part. As you know, the numbers I used are, of course, from the links I provided. From the British report to the League of Nations, there were 700,000 people in all of the Palestine territory, including Jordan. Since the area west of the Jordan River constitutes about 22% of the territory, the population in that area was about 154,000. The report specifies there were 76,000 Jews. which means there were no more than 78,000 Arabs there. Since large numbers of Egyptians followed the British army into the territory, it is likely that before WWI, Jews constituted an absolute majority west of the Jordan River, and since nearly all the Jews settled on the coastal plain, it is a virtual certainty that in 1921 Jews constituted an absolute majority of the population in what would become pre 1967 Israel.

The fact that without Arab immigration, the Arab population would have increased by no more than 70% is established by population studies cited in the second link. For those who can do arithmetic, this means the Arab population in 1948 would have been little more than 132,000 without massive Arab immigration between 1921 and 1948, and this means that 90% of the Arabs there were, in your terms, foreigners.

Since the area west of the Jordan River constitutes about 22% of the territory, the population in that area was about 154,000.

Your theory is based on false premise. Transjordan was sparsely populated.

Palestine had many major cities (Jerusalem, Gaza, Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, Bethlehem, etc.) and hundreds of villages.

Name three major cities in Transjordan.

Most of the land on both sides of the Jordan River were sparsely populated. The only cities of any size west of the Jordan in 1921-1922 were Jerusalem, Haifa, Jaffa, Tel Aviv and Nablus, and in three of these cities there were clear Jewish majorities. The others like Gaza City, Acre, Bethlehem, etc. had no more than a few thousand residents in 1922. The only reliable source for population by district and subdistrict would seem to be the British census of 1922, but it does not seem to be available online, however none of the numbers I have been able to find for the area west of the Jordan River are inconsistent with the estimates I presented above.

 

[Dante]

The family took the financial settlement after the PLO accepted responsibility and apologized
You want a pound of flesh too?

Civilized people do not shoot hostages - an old innocent man (an American tourist) in a wheelchair - in the name of freedom. The worse part is:

Leon Klinghoffer's body washed ashore in Syria, and was found on October 15 and returned to the United States. An autopsy showed that Leon had died by drowning, and not by the bullets that had been fired into him. Four months after his death, Marilyn Klinghoffer died of colon cancer. They were survived by their two daughters, Ilsa and Lisa. The two daughters later sued the PLO (Klinghoffer vs. PLO, 1990 and 1991) for their role in the hijacking and murder of their father, and the suit was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount of money.

no justice no peace

 

[P F Tinmore]

What is lacking in this discussion is any sign of intelligence or integrity on your part. As you know, the numbers I used are, of course, from the links I provided. From the British report to the League of Nations, there were 700,000 people in all of the Palestine territory, including Jordan. Since the area west of the Jordan River constitutes about 22% of the territory, the population in that area was about 154,000. The report specifies there were 76,000 Jews. which means there were no more than 78,000 Arabs there. Since large numbers of Egyptians followed the British army into the territory, it is likely that before WWI, Jews constituted an absolute majority west of the Jordan River, and since nearly all the Jews settled on the coastal plain, it is a virtual certainty that in 1921 Jews constituted an absolute majority of the population in what would become pre 1967 Israel.

The fact that without Arab immigration, the Arab population would have increased by no more than 70% is established by population studies cited in the second link. For those who can do arithmetic, this means the Arab population in 1948 would have been little more than 132,000 without massive Arab immigration between 1921 and 1948, and this means that 90% of the Arabs there were, in your terms, foreigners.

Since the area west of the Jordan River constitutes about 22% of the territory, the population in that area was about 154,000.

Your theory is based on false premise. Transjordan was sparsely populated.

Palestine had many major cities (Jerusalem, Gaza, Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, Bethlehem, etc.) and hundreds of villages.

Name three major cities in Transjordan.

Most of the land on both sides of the Jordan River were sparsely populated. The only cities of any size west of the Jordan in 1921-1922 were Jerusalem, Haifa, Jaffa, Tel Aviv and Nablus, and in three of these cities there were clear Jewish majorities. The others like Gaza City, Acre, Bethlehem, etc. had no more than a few thousand residents in 1922. The only reliable source for population by district and subdistrict would seem to be the British census of 1922, but it does not seem to be available online, however none of the numbers I have been able to find for the area west of the Jordan River are inconsistent with the estimates I presented above.

however none of the numbers I have been able to find for the area west of the Jordan River are inconsistent with the estimates I presented above.

And your assertion remains unconfirmed.

Keep looking.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The family took the financial settlement after the PLO accepted responsibility and apologized
You want a pound of flesh too?

Civilized people do not shoot hostages - an old innocent man (an American tourist) in a wheelchair - in the name of freedom. The worse part is:

Leon Klinghoffer's body washed ashore in Syria, and was found on October 15 and returned to the United States. An autopsy showed that Leon had died by drowning, and not by the bullets that had been fired into him. Four months after his death, Marilyn Klinghoffer died of colon cancer. They were survived by their two daughters, Ilsa and Lisa. The two daughters later sued the PLO (Klinghoffer vs. PLO, 1990 and 1991) for their role in the hijacking and murder of their father, and the suit was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount of money.

no justice no peace

Amen

 

[toomuchtime_]

Your theory is based on false premise. Transjordan was sparsely populated.

Palestine had many major cities (Jerusalem, Gaza, Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, Bethlehem, etc.) and hundreds of villages.

Name three major cities in Transjordan.

Most of the land on both sides of the Jordan River were sparsely populated. The only cities of any size west of the Jordan in 1921-1922 were Jerusalem, Haifa, Jaffa, Tel Aviv and Nablus, and in three of these cities there were clear Jewish majorities. The others like Gaza City, Acre, Bethlehem, etc. had no more than a few thousand residents in 1922. The only reliable source for population by district and subdistrict would seem to be the British census of 1922, but it does not seem to be available online, however none of the numbers I have been able to find for the area west of the Jordan River are inconsistent with the estimates I presented above.

however none of the numbers I have been able to find for the area west of the Jordan River are inconsistent with the estimates I presented above.

And your assertion remains unconfirmed.

Keep looking.

My analysis stands on the basis of what facts we have, and none of the available data refutes it. On the other hand, your frequent assertion that the Arabs living west of the Jordan in 1948 are "natives" and the Jews living there are "foreigners" is clearly a fraud since studies have shown that without immigration the Arab population would only have increased by 70% between 1922 and 1944, making it impossible for the Arab population to have reached 1,200,000 by 1948 without massive Arab immigration, meaning that, in your terms, most of the Arabs there in 1948 were foreigners.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Most of the land on both sides of the Jordan River were sparsely populated. The only cities of any size west of the Jordan in 1921-1922 were Jerusalem, Haifa, Jaffa, Tel Aviv and Nablus, and in three of these cities there were clear Jewish majorities. The others like Gaza City, Acre, Bethlehem, etc. had no more than a few thousand residents in 1922. The only reliable source for population by district and subdistrict would seem to be the British census of 1922, but it does not seem to be available online, however none of the numbers I have been able to find for the area west of the Jordan River are inconsistent with the estimates I presented above.

however none of the numbers I have been able to find for the area west of the Jordan River are inconsistent with the estimates I presented above.

And your assertion remains unconfirmed.

Keep looking.

My analysis stands on the basis of what facts we have, and none of the available data refutes it. On the other hand, your frequent assertion that the Arabs living west of the Jordan in 1948 are "natives" and the Jews living there are "foreigners" is clearly a fraud since studies have shown that without immigration the Arab population would only have increased by 70% between 1922 and 1944, making it impossible for the Arab population to have reached 1,200,000 by 1948 without massive Arab immigration, meaning that, in your terms, most of the Arabs there in 1948 were foreigners.

From your link.

Immigration and Travel.--Since the ports of Palestine were opened to immigration, with certain restrictions, in August, 1920, slightly over 10,000 immigrants have arrived in the country. These were almost all Jewish; only 315 non-Jewish immigrants were registered. Of the Jews, 8084 came under the auspices of the Zionist Organisation and 1815 came independently.

Your theory does not hold water.

 

[toomuchtime_]

And your assertion remains unconfirmed.

Keep looking.

My analysis stands on the basis of what facts we have, and none of the available data refutes it. On the other hand, your frequent assertion that the Arabs living west of the Jordan in 1948 are "natives" and the Jews living there are "foreigners" is clearly a fraud since studies have shown that without immigration the Arab population would only have increased by 70% between 1922 and 1944, making it impossible for the Arab population to have reached 1,200,000 by 1948 without massive Arab immigration, meaning that, in your terms, most of the Arabs there in 1948 were foreigners.

From your link.

Immigration and Travel.--Since the ports of Palestine were opened to immigration, with certain restrictions, in August, 1920, slightly over 10,000 immigrants have arrived in the country. These were almost all Jewish; only 315 non-Jewish immigrants were registered. Of the Jews, 8084 came under the auspices of the Zionist Organisation and 1815 came independently.

Your theory does not hold water.

I presented facts and logic and you present nothing but fraudulent claims you cannot support. That you have nothing to offer in support of your fraudulent claims but the fact that Jewish immigrants arrived by ship and Arab immigrants walked across the borders adds weight to my analysis.

 

[P F Tinmore]

My analysis stands on the basis of what facts we have, and none of the available data refutes it. On the other hand, your frequent assertion that the Arabs living west of the Jordan in 1948 are "natives" and the Jews living there are "foreigners" is clearly a fraud since studies have shown that without immigration the Arab population would only have increased by 70% between 1922 and 1944, making it impossible for the Arab population to have reached 1,200,000 by 1948 without massive Arab immigration, meaning that, in your terms, most of the Arabs there in 1948 were foreigners.

From your link.

Immigration and Travel.--Since the ports of Palestine were opened to immigration, with certain restrictions, in August, 1920, slightly over 10,000 immigrants have arrived in the country. These were almost all Jewish; only 315 non-Jewish immigrants were registered. Of the Jews, 8084 came under the auspices of the Zionist Organisation and 1815 came independently.

Your theory does not hold water.

I presented facts and logic and you present nothing but fraudulent claims you cannot support. That you have nothing to offer in support of your fraudulent claims but the fact that Jewish immigrants arrived by ship and Arab immigrants walked across the borders adds weight to my analysis.

All speculation. You have nothing.

 

[toomuchtime_]

From your link.



Your theory does not hold water.

I presented facts and logic and you present nothing but fraudulent claims you cannot support. That you have nothing to offer in support of your fraudulent claims but the fact that Jewish immigrants arrived by ship and Arab immigrants walked across the borders adds weight to my analysis.

All speculation. You have nothing.

No data? No substantial arguments? I'll take that as a concession.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Published on Apr 27, 2016
Many international agreements guarantee the right of return to refugees even if there is a successor government--they cannot be left stateless. The UN divided Palestine, without legal basis, in 1947 and in 1948 seeing the refugees it did not condone or foresee took responsibility for them. The treaty of Lausanne, 1923 recognized them as citizens as the world did, including Israel until a Court case in 1950 and a Law in 1952 to 'denationalize' them.
UN Resolution 194 however accepted their citizenship and Right of Return.

 

[Hossfly]

Published on Apr 27, 2016
Many international agreements guarantee the right of return to refugees even if there is a successor government--they cannot be left stateless. The UN divided Palestine, without legal basis, in 1947 and in 1948 seeing the refugees it did not condone or foresee took responsibility for them. The treaty of Lausanne, 1923 recognized them as citizens as the world did, including Israel until a Court case in 1950 and a Law in 1952 to 'denationalize' them.
UN Resolution 194 however accepted their citizenship and Right of Return.

Tinmore, check this thread, Post #42 and tell me if Right of Return will ever happen. Note that the post is over 4 years old.

 

[José]

Hossfly, with all due respect, you're misinterpreting your own post.

You did not say in the bolded, red parts that they will never be allowed to return...

You hit the nail on the head by saying palestinian arabs will never accept the partition of their homeland and their exile from it.

Originally posted by Hossfly
My summary is: The Palestinians, acting under Arab League guidance will never recognize Israel.

My conclusion: Quoting a proclamation by a Jewish friend of mine I can state that in my lifetime and my children's lifetimes, and in my grand children's and great-grand children's lifetimes, there will never be a sovereign State of Palestine. You can take that to the bank. And the West Bank.

Thanks, ESP