Republicans going after Holder for Bush's "Gun Walking" policy - hilarious!

[Oldstyle]

And how would you know that?

The CSPAN segment I watch on the hearing had Issa refusing testimony from ATF heads at the time of Wide Reciever. And the guy was interviewed by both Republicans and Democrats. Additionally the ballistics tests on the bullets that killed Officer Terry haven't been released to the public pending an investigation.

Issa wants to completely focus on events from 2009 to the present. That's it.

Operation gunrunner was suspended in late 2009 Fast and furious started in 2009 You need to go back in this thread and read some of my post where I produced DOJ news releases mentioning new programs for drug trafficking and illegal gun sales at the border.

You are just a pathological liar! Bush's Project Gunrunner was not suspended in 2009 and Bush's Fast and Furious was started in February 2008 and you produced nothing that mentioned new programs, only CONTINUING Bush's Project Gunrunner.

Here is the ATF saying that Bush's Project Gunrunner was still going on in fiscal year 2010 which ends Sept 30, 2011.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner
In 2009, ATF established several new offices dedicated to Project Gunrunner firearms trafficking investigations in McAllen, Texas, El Centro, California, and Las Cruces, New Mexico, including a satellite office in Roswell, New Mexico, in addition to new Gunrunner teams in Tucson, Arizona and El Paso, Texas. In September 2010, ATF announced plans to expand Project Gunrunner by opening additional Gunrunner offices in Sierra Vista, Arizona, and Brownsville, Texas. Additional expansion plans include the opening of three new offices located in U.S. Consulates in Mexico, as well as adding additional investigative and analytical staff to the ATF Country Office in Mexico City. These steps will allow for more timely and effective collaboration among the various law enforcement partners dedicated to Project Gunrunner. Today, there are nearly 4,500 active Project Gunrunner investigations throughout the United States. Since its inception in 2006, and through Fiscal Year 2010, ATF’s Project Gunrunner has recommended over 1,100 criminal cases and in excess of 2,500 defendants for prosecution. To date, Project Gunrunner investigations have resulted in the seizure of over 10,000 firearms and nearly one million rounds of ammunition destined for Mexico.

Show me where Operation Fast & Furious started in 2008, Ed. That's a crock and you know it. It started in 2009 under the Holder DOJ and you're as sleazy as Holder is if you try and blame Bush for a program that was begun after he left office. The reason we KNOW about Fast & Furious is that ATF agents who had been against the program from the start ratted the Holder DOJ out on what they'd been doing following the Terry killing. Holder and the ATF did their very best to stonewall the entire inquiry but some ATF agents with character wouldn't be bullied into silence and told the whole story to the press and to Congress. That was when Holder's boys started the whole "Oh, but Fast & Furious was a Bush program!" which is total bullshit.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You are just a pathological liar! Bush's Project Gunrunner was not suspended in 2009 and Bush's Fast and Furious was started in February 2008 and you produced nothing that mentioned new programs, only CONTINUING Bush's Project Gunrunner.

Here is the ATF saying that Bush's Project Gunrunner was still going on in fiscal year 2010 which ends Sept 30, 2011.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner
In 2009, ATF established several new offices dedicated to Project Gunrunner firearms trafficking investigations in McAllen, Texas, El Centro, California, and Las Cruces, New Mexico, including a satellite office in Roswell, New Mexico, in addition to new Gunrunner teams in Tucson, Arizona and El Paso, Texas. In September 2010, ATF announced plans to expand Project Gunrunner by opening additional Gunrunner offices in Sierra Vista, Arizona, and Brownsville, Texas. Additional expansion plans include the opening of three new offices located in U.S. Consulates in Mexico, as well as adding additional investigative and analytical staff to the ATF Country Office in Mexico City. These steps will allow for more timely and effective collaboration among the various law enforcement partners dedicated to Project Gunrunner. Today, there are nearly 4,500 active Project Gunrunner investigations throughout the United States. Since its inception in 2006, and through Fiscal Year 2010, ATF’s Project Gunrunner has recommended over 1,100 criminal cases and in excess of 2,500 defendants for prosecution. To date, Project Gunrunner investigations have resulted in the seizure of over 10,000 firearms and nearly one million rounds of ammunition destined for Mexico.

where is the ATF link stating that Fast & Furious was part of Gunrunner???????

Where is the ATF link that says that Bush's Fast and Furious was a separate program started in 2009???????????

Last page of the memo it mentions fast and furious starting in sept 2009
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_40_43.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

 

[edthecynic]

I'd like to see Ed show me the date where Fast & Furious started under Bush. He's repeatedly made that charge now and it's patently false. This whole "Oh, this is just a continuation of a Bush program!" is nothing more than an excuse by the the Holder DOJ folks to try and pass the buck on the program that THEY came up with and that blew up in THEIR faces.

I cited a CON$ervative anti-Obama anti-Holder source that REPORTED that Bush's Fast and Furious started in February 2008. Argue with them.

Project Gunrunner
What Is Project Gunrunner?
Project Gunrunner, the ATF claims, was an attempt by ATF to stem what they call an “iron river of guns” that is flowing from gun stores in the United States across the border into Mexico.

According to the ATF’s website, “ATF implemented Project Gunrunner in 2006 as a comprehensive strategy to reduce firearms and explosives related violent crime associated with Mexican criminal organizations operating in the U.S. and Mexico by preventing these organizations from unlawfully acquiring and trafficking firearms and explosives.”

The website also states, “Project Gunrunner’s objective is to deny Mexican drug cartels the tools of the trade, which they employ to murder rival drug traffickers, civilians, as well as political, military, and law enforcement figures in order to strengthen their grip on the lucrative drug and firearms routes into and out of the United States.”

However, since February 2008 under Project Gunrunner, operations “Fast and Furious,” “Too Hot to Handle,” “Wide Receiver,” and others (lampooned under the label “Operation Gunwalker”) have resulted in the opposite, as ATF was permitting and facilitating “straw purchase” firearm sales to gun traffickers. A straw purchase is when a buyer uses an intermediary (the “straw man”) to purchase firearms from a dealer, with the intent of hiding the identity of the real buyer. In essence, ATF allowed the guns to “walk” and be transported to Mexico.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I'd like to see Ed show me the date where Fast & Furious started under Bush. He's repeatedly made that charge now and it's patently false. This whole "Oh, this is just a continuation of a Bush program!" is nothing more than an excuse by the the Holder DOJ folks to try and pass the buck on the program that THEY came up with and that blew up in THEIR faces.

I cited a CON$ervative anti-Obama anti-Holder source that REPORTED that Bush's Fast and Furious started in February 2008. Argue with them.

Project Gunrunner
What Is Project Gunrunner?
Project Gunrunner, the ATF claims, was an attempt by ATF to stem what they call an “iron river of guns” that is flowing from gun stores in the United States across the border into Mexico.

According to the ATF’s website, “ATF implemented Project Gunrunner in 2006 as a comprehensive strategy to reduce firearms and explosives related violent crime associated with Mexican criminal organizations operating in the U.S. and Mexico by preventing these organizations from unlawfully acquiring and trafficking firearms and explosives.”

The website also states, “Project Gunrunner’s objective is to deny Mexican drug cartels the tools of the trade, which they employ to murder rival drug traffickers, civilians, as well as political, military, and law enforcement figures in order to strengthen their grip on the lucrative drug and firearms routes into and out of the United States.”

However, since February 2008 under Project Gunrunner, operations “Fast and Furious,” “Too Hot to Handle,” “Wide Receiver,” and others (lampooned under the label “Operation Gunwalker”) have resulted in the opposite, as ATF was permitting and facilitating “straw purchase” firearm sales to gun traffickers. A straw purchase is when a buyer uses an intermediary (the “straw man”) to purchase firearms from a dealer, with the intent of hiding the identity of the real buyer. In essence, ATF allowed the guns to “walk” and be transported to Mexico.

September 2009 – Jan. 8, 2010: A Jan. 8, 2010 briefing paper from the ATF Phoenix Field Division Group VII says: “This investigation has currently identified more than 20 individual connected straw purchasers.” It further says: “To date (September 2009 – present) this group has purchased in excess of 650 firearms (mainly AK-47 variants) for which they have paid cash totaling more than $350,000.”

October 2009: The ATF’s Phoenix Field Division establishes a gun trafficking group called Group VII. Group VII initially began using the strategy of “gunwalking,” or allowing suspects to walk away with illegally purchased guns, according to a report by the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee and the staff of Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa), ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

“The purpose was to wait and watch, in hope that law enforcement could identify other members of a trafficking network and build a large, complex conspiracy case,” the report says. It goes on to say: “Group VII initially began using the new gunwalking tactics in one of its investigations to further the Department’s strategy. The case was soon renamed ‘Operation Fast and Furious.’”

Gun-Running Timeline: How DOJ

 

[edthecynic]

where is the ATF link stating that Fast & Furious was part of Gunrunner???????

Where is the ATF link that says that Bush's Fast and Furious was a separate program started in 2009???????????

Last page of the memo it mentions fast and furious starting in sept 2009
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_40_43.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

No it doesn't!!! It says the INVESTIGATION of Manuel Celis-Acosta began in 2009 not Bush's Operation Fast and Furious. It says the INVESTIGATION was PART of Bush's Fast and Furious, so Bush's Fast and Furious was already in operation when this INVESTIGATION was begun!

Learn to read!

 

[Oldstyle]

You are just a pathological liar! Bush's Project Gunrunner was not suspended in 2009 and Bush's Fast and Furious was started in February 2008 and you produced nothing that mentioned new programs, only CONTINUING Bush's Project Gunrunner.

Here is the ATF saying that Bush's Project Gunrunner was still going on in fiscal year 2010 which ends Sept 30, 2011.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner
In 2009, ATF established several new offices dedicated to Project Gunrunner firearms trafficking investigations in McAllen, Texas, El Centro, California, and Las Cruces, New Mexico, including a satellite office in Roswell, New Mexico, in addition to new Gunrunner teams in Tucson, Arizona and El Paso, Texas. In September 2010, ATF announced plans to expand Project Gunrunner by opening additional Gunrunner offices in Sierra Vista, Arizona, and Brownsville, Texas. Additional expansion plans include the opening of three new offices located in U.S. Consulates in Mexico, as well as adding additional investigative and analytical staff to the ATF Country Office in Mexico City. These steps will allow for more timely and effective collaboration among the various law enforcement partners dedicated to Project Gunrunner. Today, there are nearly 4,500 active Project Gunrunner investigations throughout the United States. Since its inception in 2006, and through Fiscal Year 2010, ATF’s Project Gunrunner has recommended over 1,100 criminal cases and in excess of 2,500 defendants for prosecution. To date, Project Gunrunner investigations have resulted in the seizure of over 10,000 firearms and nearly one million rounds of ammunition destined for Mexico.

where is the ATF link stating that Fast & Furious was part of Gunrunner???????

Where is the ATF link that says that Bush's Fast and Furious was a separate program started in 2009???????????

You're really quite the sleaze, Ed. You know as well as I do that Operation Fast & Furious was started in 2009 by the Holder DOJ but you're STILL trying to blame it on Bush because it was an offshoot of the Gunrunner Program.

The truth is...Bush's DOJ stopped trying to sell guns and trace their smuggling into Mexico because it became apparent that even with the cooperation of the Mexican authorities that they couldn't keep track of where the weapons were going.

Holder's DOJ started up Fast & Furious and FLOODED Mexico with over 2,000 high powered weapons they knew were going to violent criminals...not because they were attempting to trace those weapons because they WEREN'T...no, this was about swaying public opinion. The Holder DOJ was willing to put Mexican nationals and US citizens along the border at greater risk SIMPLY SO THEY COULD MAKE THE CASE FOR STIFFER GUN CONTROL REGULATIONS!!! Only when Brian Terry was killed by one of those weapons they realized that a serious shit storm was headed their way and they've been trying to blame everyone else they can for what was THEIR idea.

Bottom line is this...Eric Holder has no moral compass. He proved that with the Eric Rich pardon in the last hours of the Clinton Administration. He never should have been appointed Attorney General just for that! Now he's lied to Congress. Once again...why is this man the highest ranking law enforcement official in the country? He should have been fired long ago.

 

[edthecynic]

Operation gunrunner was suspended in late 2009 Fast and furious started in 2009 You need to go back in this thread and read some of my post where I produced DOJ news releases mentioning new programs for drug trafficking and illegal gun sales at the border.

You are just a pathological liar! Bush's Project Gunrunner was not suspended in 2009 and Bush's Fast and Furious was started in February 2008 and you produced nothing that mentioned new programs, only CONTINUING Bush's Project Gunrunner.

Here is the ATF saying that Bush's Project Gunrunner was still going on in fiscal year 2010 which ends Sept 30, 2011.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner
In 2009, ATF established several new offices dedicated to Project Gunrunner firearms trafficking investigations in McAllen, Texas, El Centro, California, and Las Cruces, New Mexico, including a satellite office in Roswell, New Mexico, in addition to new Gunrunner teams in Tucson, Arizona and El Paso, Texas. In September 2010, ATF announced plans to expand Project Gunrunner by opening additional Gunrunner offices in Sierra Vista, Arizona, and Brownsville, Texas. Additional expansion plans include the opening of three new offices located in U.S. Consulates in Mexico, as well as adding additional investigative and analytical staff to the ATF Country Office in Mexico City. These steps will allow for more timely and effective collaboration among the various law enforcement partners dedicated to Project Gunrunner. Today, there are nearly 4,500 active Project Gunrunner investigations throughout the United States. Since its inception in 2006, and through Fiscal Year 2010, ATF’s Project Gunrunner has recommended over 1,100 criminal cases and in excess of 2,500 defendants for prosecution. To date, Project Gunrunner investigations have resulted in the seizure of over 10,000 firearms and nearly one million rounds of ammunition destined for Mexico.

Where does it mention 2011? You don't think they can have two different operations going on at the same time starting at different times for the same purpose? How do you think they can make comparisons if the program is working or not?

The fact you are averting from is that fast and furious was started while obama under obama.

When caught in your lie that Bush's Project Gunrunner ended in 2009, you just play dumb over and over again.

I pointed out that FISCAL YEAR 2010 ENDS SEPTEMBER 30, 2011. Fiscal year 2010 runs from October 1 2010 to September 30, 2011.

Admit it, you got caught in a lie you posted more than once yet again.

 

[edthecynic]

where is the ATF link stating that Fast & Furious was part of Gunrunner???????

Where is the ATF link that says that Bush's Fast and Furious was a separate program started in 2009???????????

You're really quite the sleaze, Ed. You know as well as I do that Operation Fast & Furious was started in 2009 by the Holder DOJ but you're STILL trying to blame it on Bush because it was an offshoot of the Gunrunner Program.

The truth is...Bush's DOJ stopped trying to sell guns and trace their smuggling into Mexico because it became apparent that even with the cooperation of the Mexican authorities that they couldn't keep track of where the weapons were going.

Holder's DOJ started up Fast & Furious and FLOODED Mexico with over 2,000 high powered weapons they knew were going to violent criminals...not because they were attempting to trace those weapons because they WEREN'T...no, this was about swaying public opinion. The Holder DOJ was willing to put Mexican nationals and US citizens along the border at greater risk SIMPLY SO THEY COULD MAKE THE CASE FOR STIFFER GUN CONTROL REGULATIONS!!! Only when Brian Terry was killed by one of those weapons they realized that a serious shit storm was headed their way and they've been trying to blame everyone else they can for what was THEIR idea.

Bottom line is this...Eric Holder has no moral compass. He proved that with the Eric Rich pardon in the last hours of the Clinton Administration. He never should have been appointed Attorney General just for that! Now he's lied to Congress. Once again...why is this man the highest ranking law enforcement official in the country? He should have been fired long ago.

Again more pure made up bullshit! The bullet that killed Terry was too badly damaged to tell what it came from, but to CON$ that gives them license to say it came from Holder. Well I say it came from Bush. If you CON$ can make a claim without proof, so can I.

 

[Oldstyle]

I find it amusing that you keep citing the same ATF source as some sort of "proof" that Fast & Furious was a Bush program, Ed. What that "proves" is that Holder's people in the ATF did their very best to sell that story to the American public, saying that "their" program was just a continuation of what Bush had been doing. Anyone with a whit of common sense however can quite clearly see that the Bush DOJ stopped trying to sell guns and trace their path into Mexico because they couldn't keep track of them. So why would the Holder DOJ start up a program that had already been tried and shown to be unworkable? Why would they not inform the Mexican authorities about Fast & Furious? Why were no arrest made? Why did they send over 2,000 weapons south instead of the 200 that were sold in Operation Gunrunner? The answer to ALL those questions is that the Holder DOJ never had any intention of trying to track the weapons they sold and make arrests. They simply wanted to use the existence of all those weapons in Mexico as proof that we needed stricter gun control laws here in the US. They basically decided that they were willing to endanger the lives of innocent people to further their AGENDA!

 

[Sallow]

He does deserve it, but that wont happen regardless of your imagination.

The Presidents most deserving of impeachment and removal from office in my lifetime were Nixon, Reagan, and GW Bush. Real live law breaking liars.

None of them were impeached.

None.

I grant you Nixon. (If not 100%, then based on the cover-up, I deem it unworthy of quibbling over.)

Your claim that Ronald Reagan or W were "deserving" of impeachment is nonsensical at best.

And by the way, it is a certainty that the SOLE reason Nixon did not get impeached is because he had the presence of mind to quit, first.

He would have never been removed from office.

And "presence of mind" is dubious at best in the case of Nixon..he was a sociopath.

Reagan broke the law. Funding the contras against the expressed legislation of congress was a violation of both law..and the constitution.

Same with George W. Bush with the Valerie Plame debacle.

 

[Oldstyle]

Where is the ATF link that says that Bush's Fast and Furious was a separate program started in 2009???????????

You're really quite the sleaze, Ed. You know as well as I do that Operation Fast & Furious was started in 2009 by the Holder DOJ but you're STILL trying to blame it on Bush because it was an offshoot of the Gunrunner Program.

The truth is...Bush's DOJ stopped trying to sell guns and trace their smuggling into Mexico because it became apparent that even with the cooperation of the Mexican authorities that they couldn't keep track of where the weapons were going.

Holder's DOJ started up Fast & Furious and FLOODED Mexico with over 2,000 high powered weapons they knew were going to violent criminals...not because they were attempting to trace those weapons because they WEREN'T...no, this was about swaying public opinion. The Holder DOJ was willing to put Mexican nationals and US citizens along the border at greater risk SIMPLY SO THEY COULD MAKE THE CASE FOR STIFFER GUN CONTROL REGULATIONS!!! Only when Brian Terry was killed by one of those weapons they realized that a serious shit storm was headed their way and they've been trying to blame everyone else they can for what was THEIR idea.

Bottom line is this...Eric Holder has no moral compass. He proved that with the Eric Rich pardon in the last hours of the Clinton Administration. He never should have been appointed Attorney General just for that! Now he's lied to Congress. Once again...why is this man the highest ranking law enforcement official in the country? He should have been fired long ago.

Again more pure made up bullshit! The bullet that killed Terry was too badly damaged to tell what it came from, but to CON$ that gives them license to say it came from Holder. Well I say it came from Bush. If you CON$ cam make a claim without proof, so can I.

The bullet may have been mangled but two Fast & Furious guns were recovered from the site of the Terry shooting. Care to try again, Ed? Those were guns from a program started by the Holder DOJ. They have ZERO to do with George W. Bush.

 

[edthecynic]

I find it amusing that you keep citing the same ATF source as some sort of "proof" that Fast & Furious was a Bush program, Ed. What that "proves" is that Holder's people in the ATF did their very best to sell that story to the American public, saying that "their" program was just a continuation of what Bush had been doing. Anyone with a whit of common sense however can quite clearly see that the Bush DOJ stopped trying to sell guns and trace their path into Mexico because they couldn't keep track of them. So why would the Holder DOJ start up a program that had already been tried and shown to be unworkable? Why would they not inform the Mexican authorities about Fast & Furious? Why were no arrest made? Why did they send over 2,000 weapons south instead of the 200 that were sold in Operation Gunrunner? The answer to ALL those questions is that the Holder DOJ never had any intention of trying to track the weapons they sold and make arrests. They simply wanted to use the existence of all those weapons in Mexico as proof that we needed stricter gun control laws here in the US. They basically decided that they were willing to endanger the lives of innocent people to further their AGENDA!

If you get CON$ foaming at the mouth long enough they start contradicting each other as they make up their rationalizations on the spot.

Originally Posted by bigrebnc1775
Here's your problem while your blame bush your defending obama.
Operation gunrunner was controlled fast and furious was not.
The guns for gunrunner were accounted for, fast and furious guns were accounted for after someone in mexico was killed.
Fast and furious was used to circumvent the second amendment operation gunrunner wasn't

There's your difference.

 

[Oldstyle]

You are just a pathological liar! Bush's Project Gunrunner was not suspended in 2009 and Bush's Fast and Furious was started in February 2008 and you produced nothing that mentioned new programs, only CONTINUING Bush's Project Gunrunner.

Here is the ATF saying that Bush's Project Gunrunner was still going on in fiscal year 2010 which ends Sept 30, 2011.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner
In 2009, ATF established several new offices dedicated to Project Gunrunner firearms trafficking investigations in McAllen, Texas, El Centro, California, and Las Cruces, New Mexico, including a satellite office in Roswell, New Mexico, in addition to new Gunrunner teams in Tucson, Arizona and El Paso, Texas. In September 2010, ATF announced plans to expand Project Gunrunner by opening additional Gunrunner offices in Sierra Vista, Arizona, and Brownsville, Texas. Additional expansion plans include the opening of three new offices located in U.S. Consulates in Mexico, as well as adding additional investigative and analytical staff to the ATF Country Office in Mexico City. These steps will allow for more timely and effective collaboration among the various law enforcement partners dedicated to Project Gunrunner. Today, there are nearly 4,500 active Project Gunrunner investigations throughout the United States. Since its inception in 2006, and through Fiscal Year 2010, ATF’s Project Gunrunner has recommended over 1,100 criminal cases and in excess of 2,500 defendants for prosecution. To date, Project Gunrunner investigations have resulted in the seizure of over 10,000 firearms and nearly one million rounds of ammunition destined for Mexico.

Where does it mention 2011? You don't think they can have two different operations going on at the same time starting at different times for the same purpose? How do you think they can make comparisons if the program is working or not?

The fact you are averting from is that fast and furious was started while obama under obama.

When caught in your lie that Bush's Project Gunrunner ended in 2009, you just play dumb over and over again.

I pointed out that FISCAL YEAR 2010 ENDS SEPTEMBER 30, 2011. Fiscal year 2010 runs from October 1 2010 to September 30, 2011.

Admit it, you got caught in a lie you posted more than once yet again.

So let me get this straight...you're now maintaining that ATF report was referencing "fiscal years" and not actual years? You're kidding, right?"

 

[Claudette]

where is the ATF link stating that Fast & Furious was part of Gunrunner???????

Where is the ATF link that says that Bush's Fast and Furious was a separate program started in 2009???????????

You're really quite the sleaze, Ed. You know as well as I do that Operation Fast & Furious was started in 2009 by the Holder DOJ but you're STILL trying to blame it on Bush because it was an offshoot of the Gunrunner Program.

The truth is...Bush's DOJ stopped trying to sell guns and trace their smuggling into Mexico because it became apparent that even with the cooperation of the Mexican authorities that they couldn't keep track of where the weapons were going.

Holder's DOJ started up Fast & Furious and FLOODED Mexico with over 2,000 high powered weapons they knew were going to violent criminals...not because they were attempting to trace those weapons because they WEREN'T...no, this was about swaying public opinion. The Holder DOJ was willing to put Mexican nationals and US citizens along the border at greater risk SIMPLY SO THEY COULD MAKE THE CASE FOR STIFFER GUN CONTROL REGULATIONS!!! Only when Brian Terry was killed by one of those weapons they realized that a serious shit storm was headed their way and they've been trying to blame everyone else they can for what was THEIR idea.

Bottom line is this...Eric Holder has no moral compass. He proved that with the Eric Rich pardon in the last hours of the Clinton Administration. He never should have been appointed Attorney General just for that! Now he's lied to Congress. Once again...why is this man the highest ranking law enforcement official in the country? He should have been fired long ago.

Another big fat BINGO.

CYA big time is their mantra.

I'm sure they regret Terrys death as it opened up the whole fiasco and showed their ineptitude to the American people.

I doubt seriously that Barry will throw Holder under his big assed bus though.

 

[edthecynic]

You're really quite the sleaze, Ed. You know as well as I do that Operation Fast & Furious was started in 2009 by the Holder DOJ but you're STILL trying to blame it on Bush because it was an offshoot of the Gunrunner Program.

The truth is...Bush's DOJ stopped trying to sell guns and trace their smuggling into Mexico because it became apparent that even with the cooperation of the Mexican authorities that they couldn't keep track of where the weapons were going.

Holder's DOJ started up Fast & Furious and FLOODED Mexico with over 2,000 high powered weapons they knew were going to violent criminals...not because they were attempting to trace those weapons because they WEREN'T...no, this was about swaying public opinion. The Holder DOJ was willing to put Mexican nationals and US citizens along the border at greater risk SIMPLY SO THEY COULD MAKE THE CASE FOR STIFFER GUN CONTROL REGULATIONS!!! Only when Brian Terry was killed by one of those weapons they realized that a serious shit storm was headed their way and they've been trying to blame everyone else they can for what was THEIR idea.

Bottom line is this...Eric Holder has no moral compass. He proved that with the Eric Rich pardon in the last hours of the Clinton Administration. He never should have been appointed Attorney General just for that! Now he's lied to Congress. Once again...why is this man the highest ranking law enforcement official in the country? He should have been fired long ago.

Again more pure made up bullshit! The bullet that killed Terry was too badly damaged to tell what it came from, but to CON$ that gives them license to say it came from Holder. Well I say it came from Bush. If you CON$ cam make a claim without proof, so can I.

The bullet may have been mangled but two Fast & Furious guns were recovered from the site of the Terry shooting. Care to try again, Ed? Those were guns from a program started by the Holder DOJ. They have ZERO to do with George W. Bush.

Again there is no proof that the bullet came from either of those guns, and CON$ have been claiming that the guns from Bush's Fast and Furious operation could not be traced, so how could you know the guns were from Bush's Fast and Furious untracible guns???

 

[JDzBrain]

Again..

Issa refuses to investigate that far back.

How would anyone know?

We KNOW because of the very few documents Holder HAS turned over to Congress...the MAJORITY were related to that program...NOT the 93 THOUSAND pages of materials related to Fast and Furious.

Of course Bush was president for 9/11 BUT that wasn't his fault because it happened on his watch, NOOOOOOOO. It was Clinton's fault because the planning began on Clinton's watch. Well Bush's Fast and Furious planning and program began on Bush's watch, so by already established CON$ervative rationalizations, Bush owns Fast and Furious and Terry's death.

Hey DUMMY...the difference is that Clinton and Reno had 3 chances to arrest bin Ladin after the first bombing of the Trade Center and refused to to do it. And that is indisputable historical FACT...which Clinton has acknowledged. So YES...he gets the blame!

You want to know the other REAL difference between the 2 programs. One let guns walk right across the border without being interdicted and the other DIDN'T!

Gun runner resulted in THOUSANDS of arrest. Fast and Furious resulted in TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DEATHS!!!

Gun runner was an EARNEST attempt to stem the flow of arms back and forth between Mexico and the US. Fast and Furious was the bastard son of Gun Runner being used by anti-gun activist inside Justice to influence gun regulations in America!

THAT is why the records and documents pertaining to Gun Runner were given to the committee, but 99% of documentation relating to Fast and Furious are being suppressed.

One single gun dealer involved in Fast and Furious...LITERALLY, this is not hyperbole...literally turned over 3 TIMES more documentation related to his part in the program than the Justice department has about the WHOLE program. How freakin' much more smoke do you liberal drones need before you call the fire department? SHIT!!!

 

[Conservative]

You are just a pathological liar! Bush's Project Gunrunner was not suspended in 2009 and Bush's Fast and Furious was started in February 2008 and you produced nothing that mentioned new programs, only CONTINUING Bush's Project Gunrunner.

Here is the ATF saying that Bush's Project Gunrunner was still going on in fiscal year 2010 which ends Sept 30, 2011.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner
In 2009, ATF established several new offices dedicated to Project Gunrunner firearms trafficking investigations in McAllen, Texas, El Centro, California, and Las Cruces, New Mexico, including a satellite office in Roswell, New Mexico, in addition to new Gunrunner teams in Tucson, Arizona and El Paso, Texas. In September 2010, ATF announced plans to expand Project Gunrunner by opening additional Gunrunner offices in Sierra Vista, Arizona, and Brownsville, Texas. Additional expansion plans include the opening of three new offices located in U.S. Consulates in Mexico, as well as adding additional investigative and analytical staff to the ATF Country Office in Mexico City. These steps will allow for more timely and effective collaboration among the various law enforcement partners dedicated to Project Gunrunner. Today, there are nearly 4,500 active Project Gunrunner investigations throughout the United States. Since its inception in 2006, and through Fiscal Year 2010, ATF’s Project Gunrunner has recommended over 1,100 criminal cases and in excess of 2,500 defendants for prosecution. To date, Project Gunrunner investigations have resulted in the seizure of over 10,000 firearms and nearly one million rounds of ammunition destined for Mexico.

where is the ATF link stating that Fast & Furious was part of Gunrunner???????

Where is the ATF link that says that Bush's Fast and Furious was a separate program started in 2009???????????

YOU made the statement...Fast & Furious was part of Gunrunner.

YOU refuse to produce an ATF link that supports that statement.

It is YOUR job to provide proof for YOUR statements, not my job to disprove them.

You have completely failed to provide proof of your statement.

You're a hack, and a liar.

 

[Oldstyle]

You say that Fast & Furious was a Bush thing, Ed but the fact don't back you up.

"Fast and Furious began with a noble goal.

On Oct. 26, 2009, the directors of the FBI, the Drug Enforcement Administration and ATF and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states met with the deputy attorney general at the Justice Department to plot strategy for combating Mexican cartels. A key problem: the tens of thousands of guns coming from the United States to arm the drug traffickers. The Washington Post July 25, 2011

That was when Fast & Furious was hatched, Ed...almost a year after W. had left office. Care to try again?

 

[edthecynic]

Where does it mention 2011? You don't think they can have two different operations going on at the same time starting at different times for the same purpose? How do you think they can make comparisons if the program is working or not?

The fact you are averting from is that fast and furious was started while obama under obama.

When caught in your lie that Bush's Project Gunrunner ended in 2009, you just play dumb over and over again.

I pointed out that FISCAL YEAR 2010 ENDS SEPTEMBER 30, 2011. Fiscal year 2010 runs from October 1 2010 to September 30, 2011.

Admit it, you got caught in a lie you posted more than once yet again.

So let me get this straight...you're now maintaining that ATF report was referencing "fiscal years" and not actual years? You're kidding, right?"

You can't be that ignorant!

It's right there on the ATF website in black and white. CONS are pathetic.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner
Since its inception in 2006, and through Fiscal Year 2010, ATF’s Project Gunrunner has recommended over 1,100 criminal cases and in excess of 2,500 defendants for prosecution.

 

[Oldstyle]

I find it amusing that you keep citing the same ATF source as some sort of "proof" that Fast & Furious was a Bush program, Ed. What that "proves" is that Holder's people in the ATF did their very best to sell that story to the American public, saying that "their" program was just a continuation of what Bush had been doing. Anyone with a whit of common sense however can quite clearly see that the Bush DOJ stopped trying to sell guns and trace their path into Mexico because they couldn't keep track of them. So why would the Holder DOJ start up a program that had already been tried and shown to be unworkable? Why would they not inform the Mexican authorities about Fast & Furious? Why were no arrest made? Why did they send over 2,000 weapons south instead of the 200 that were sold in Operation Gunrunner? The answer to ALL those questions is that the Holder DOJ never had any intention of trying to track the weapons they sold and make arrests. They simply wanted to use the existence of all those weapons in Mexico as proof that we needed stricter gun control laws here in the US. They basically decided that they were willing to endanger the lives of innocent people to further their AGENDA!

If you get CON$ foaming at the mouth long enough they start contradicting each other as they make up their rationalizations on the spot.

Originally Posted by bigrebnc1775
Here's your problem while your blame bush your defending obama.
Operation gunrunner was controlled fast and furious was not.
The guns for gunrunner were accounted for, fast and furious guns were accounted for after someone in mexico was killed.
Fast and furious was used to circumvent the second amendment operation gunrunner wasn't

There's your difference.

How did I "contradict" what Big said? What he posts completely supports what I posted. I'm still waiting for you to show us where Operation Fast & Furious started in 2008 as you claim, Ed. I've shown you the Washington Post article that says the operation was started very late in 2009 at a meeting in Washington. Care to refute that with some proof that it started earlier?