Republican Team ISIS Fighters quitting their 'lost cause' fight.

[Tehon]

Tehon 14094477

Saddam agreed to the return of inspectors in Sept. 2002, a full month before the AUMF was passed.

That was exactly why the AUMF was passed. The AUMF was a way to force Bush to accept diplomacy and inspections not to force Saddam Hussein just to talk about resumption of inspections, but to have him to know that a more invasive inspection regime was coming and both sides would be required to abide by it.

Saddam did abide by UN Res 1441. Bush did not.

No one could know in October 2002 that Bush would see Saddam's cooperation as a reason to end diplomacy and launch a full scale invasion instead. That made no speculative sence.

The AUMF made sense to pass because both Bush and Hussein were talking inspections not war from September until Bush chose war in March 2003. No Dem agreed with Bush's decision in Narch 2003.

Without the October AUMF earlier AUMF could be used by Bush to avoid the trouble with inspections and start a war giving peace no chance.

Democrats voted for Authorization to Use Force against Iraq to force Bush to accept diplomacy?

You're an idiot.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Tehon 14106653.

Democrats voted for Authorization to Use Force against Iraq to force Bush to accept diplomacy?

No you fool! Bush decided to go the diplomacy route in September 2002, so he asked Congress for an AUMF to force Saddam to accept diplomacy for real this time. No more bullcrap. The AUMF achieved what it was created to do. But Bush was lying. Just the facts.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Then there's the revisionist history that Hillary who voted to approve an invasion opposed invading ...

You are revising history. The was no approval of an invasion. Read the Document. There was approval to invade IF necessary IF and only IF the UNSC did NOT pass a new tougher diplomatic effort and then since the UN did that within one month of the passage of the AUMF the war was only authorized IF and only IF Saddam's regime did not cooperate with the Res 1441 inspectors. And Saddam did that. War was never truly authorized as written,

A vote for war is a direct vote for the need for war because a threat was imminent. After October 2002 Bush spent nearly five months watching inspectors inspect Iraq. How was there an imminent threat when you watch inspections happen for five months. Answer that will you?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Tehon 14094477

. Saddam agreed to the return of inspectors in Sept. 2002, a full month before the AUMF was passed.

Since you know that about Saddam, why don't you know what Bush said in his autobiography "Decision Points"

"I reached a decision: We would confront the threat from Iraq, one way or another. My first choice was to use diplomacy."

The October 2002 AUMF was according to Bush a way to achieve his first choice 'diplomacy' not war. The threat of force was intended to avoid war according to Bush, not me. But that is what he said at the time and still says to this day.

 

[kaz]

Then there's the revisionist history that Hillary who voted to approve an invasion opposed invading ...

You are revising history. The was no approval of an invasion. Read the Document. There was approval to invade IF necessary IF and only IF the UNSC did NOT pass a new tougher diplomatic effort and then since the UN did that within one month of the passage of the AUMF the war was only authorized IF and only IF Saddam's regime did not cooperate with the Res 1441 inspectors. And Saddam did that. War was never truly authorized as written,

A vote for war is a direct vote for the need for war because a threat was imminent. After October 2002 Bush spent nearly five months watching inspectors inspect Iraq. How was there an imminent threat when you watch inspections happen for five months. Answer that will you?

Spin, spin, spin. She voted for it, you're just making yourself dizzy

 

[NotfooledbyW]

kaz 14164134

Spin, spin, spin. She voted for it, you're just making yourself dizzy

Of course she voted for it. It is not spin to tell you the facts about what 'it' actually was that she voted for. I notice you ran as soon as you were confronted with the facts. Do you have an argument contesting my facts? Or shall you just cry 'spin spin spin'?

 

[kaz]

kaz 14164134

Spin, spin, spin. She voted for it, you're just making yourself dizzy

Of course she voted for it. It is not spin to tell you the facts about what 'it' actually was that she voted for. I notice you ran as soon as you were confronted with the facts. Do you have an argument contesting my facts? Or shall you just cry 'spin spin spin'?

Um ... what?

 

[Tehon]

You are revising history. The was no approval of an invasion. Read the Document. There was approval to invade IF necessary IF and only IF the UNSC did NOT pass a new tougher diplomatic effort and then since the UN did that within one month of the passage of the AUMF the war was only authorized IF and only IF Saddam's regime did not cooperate with the Res 1441 inspectors. And Saddam did that. War was never truly authorized as written,

You are making shit up. Here is the document that Hillary voted for.

Text of H.J.Res. 114 (107th): Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

There are no "ifs" in the document. It was a blank check for Bush to invade. That is a fact.

(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You are revising history. The was no approval of an invasion. Read the Document. There was approval to invade IF necessary IF and only IF the UNSC did NOT pass a new tougher diplomatic effort and then since the UN did that within one month of the passage of the AUMF the war was only authorized IF and only IF Saddam's regime did not cooperate with the Res 1441 inspectors. And Saddam did that. War was never truly authorized as written,

You are making shit up. Here is the document that Hillary voted for.

Text of H.J.Res. 114 (107th): Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

There are no "ifs" in the document. It was a blank check for Bush to invade. That is a fact.

(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate

This is the IF part:


As he "determines to be necessary"

• 
  (a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
  
  • 
    (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
    
    (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
    
  (b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
  
  • 
    (1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq;

As he "determines to be necessary" is future tense. When the AUMF was passed it was not already determined to be becessary.

That is why it is an IF.

And remember I posted Bush's admission that he preferred diplomacy. That is how he convinced many Congress Members to support the AUMF - if war became necessary.

 

[Tehon]

This is the IF part:


As he "determines to be necessary"

• 
  (a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
  • 
    (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
    
    (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
  (b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
  • 
    (1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq;

As he "determines to be necessary" is future tense. When the AUMF was passed it was not already determined to be becessary.

That is why it is an IF.

And remember I posted Bush's admission that he preferred diplomacy. That is how he convinced many Congress Members to support the AUMF - if war became necessary.

There were no conditions placed on the authorization as you claimed in post #243. You made those up.

Clinton authorized the war and then left it to Bush's discretion. There were no qualifications (ifs) to that authorization.

When the AUMF was passed it was not already determined to be becessary.

Exactly why Clinton and her ilk deserve our scorn, they voted for an unnecessary war. They are complicit in the crime.

 

[Camp]

This is the IF part:


As he "determines to be necessary"

• 
  (a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
  • 
    (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
    
    (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
  (b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
  • 
    (1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq;

As he "determines to be necessary" is future tense. When the AUMF was passed it was not already determined to be becessary.

That is why it is an IF.

And remember I posted Bush's admission that he preferred diplomacy. That is how he convinced many Congress Members to support the AUMF - if war became necessary.

There were no conditions placed on the authorization as you claimed in post #243. You made those up.

Clinton authorized the war and then left it to Bush's discretion. There were no qualifications (ifs) to that authorization.

When the AUMF was passed it was not already determined to be becessary.

Exactly why Clinton and her ilk deserve our scorn, they voted for an unnecessary war. They are complicit in the crime.

Everyone expected Bush to use discretion and be responsible. He was given unfettered trust and betrayed the country by squandering that trust. Plus, no one expected he would allow mission creep and or change the purpose of the war into one of endless occupation and years of nation building.

 

[Tehon]

This is the IF part:


As he "determines to be necessary"

• 
  (a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
  • 
    (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
    
    (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
  (b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
  • 
    (1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq;

As he "determines to be necessary" is future tense. When the AUMF was passed it was not already determined to be becessary.

That is why it is an IF.

And remember I posted Bush's admission that he preferred diplomacy. That is how he convinced many Congress Members to support the AUMF - if war became necessary.

There were no conditions placed on the authorization as you claimed in post #243. You made those up.

Clinton authorized the war and then left it to Bush's discretion. There were no qualifications (ifs) to that authorization.

When the AUMF was passed it was not already determined to be becessary.

Exactly why Clinton and her ilk deserve our scorn, they voted for an unnecessary war. They are complicit in the crime.

Everyone expected Bush to use discretion and be responsible. He was given unfettered trust and betrayed the country by squandering that trust. Plus, no one expected he would allow mission creep and or change the purpose of the war into one of endless occupation and years of nation building.

Not everyone. And as was already pointed out by my friend above, giving Bush authorization for an unnecessary war was in itself a betrayal of the country.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to-

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq


Tehon 14177065

There were no conditions placed on the authorization as you claimed in post #243. You made those up.

Those are the conditions. Explain how they are not very specific conditions. They are the explicit conditions that Bush defied and did not adhere to. You are making excuses for Bush. That is all you are doing.

Explain how Bush enforced UNSC resolutions when after UNSC Resolution 1441was passed Bush is the one that defied the UNSC, not Saddam Hussein.

The conditions are right before your eyes. Read them and weep because you have been supporting Bush's decision to invade because of your ignorance of those conditions and Bush's guilt in defying them.

 

[Tehon]

(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to-

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq


Tehon 14177065

There were no conditions placed on the authorization as you claimed in post #243. You made those up.

Those are the conditions. Explain how they are not very specific conditions. They are the explicit conditions that Bush defied and did not adhere to. You are making excuses for Bush. That is all you are doing.

Explain how Bush enforced UNSC resolutions when after UNSC Resolution 1441was passed Bush is the one that defied the UNSC, not Saddam Hussein.

The conditions are right before your eyes. Read them and weep because you have been supporting Bush's decision to invade because of your ignorance of those conditions and Bush's guilt in defying them.

They are not conditions junior, they are justifications.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Tehon 14177065

Clinton authorized the war and then left it to Bush's discretion. There were no qualifications (ifs) to that authorization.

She could not have authorized 'war' because as you just admitted now and Bush admitted prior to the AUMF vote, war was not necessary in October 2002. And war did not become necessary beyond that point. That is unless you think Saddam Hussein cooperating proactively with 200 UN inspectors by February 2003 made war necessary. And those inspectors had checked out all US intelligence on WMD and none of it checked out.

Bush is guilty of kicking the UN inspectors out of Iraq, not Saddam Hussein, and you prefer to trash Hillary for being lied to in October 2002 by the President of the United States on a matter as serious as invading a sovereign nation at the time when there was insufficient answers to the exact threat of WMD under the control of an unstable anti-American dictator.

It was not until January 2003 that solid answers were coming to light on the extent of WMD in Iraq.

The AUMF gets credit for bringing that knowledge to the world community.

But Bush was a liar and still is saying he preferred diplomacy over war. But Bush's lies disappear in the fog of your focus on how Hillary and many other Senators chose to vote.

And you can't make a case that her vote was wrong on the day that she voted.

 

[Tehon]

She could not have authorized 'war'

She did. It's part of the congressional record.

And you can't make a case that her vote was wrong on the day that she voted.

She voted to authorize military force in a situation that you freely admit was unnecessary. History confirms the veracity of my case against her, even if you lack the integrity to admit it.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Tehon 14177512 They are not conditions junior, they are justifications.[/QUOTE]

That's cute, but not close to a realistic argument against the fact that these are conditions pressed on Bush in order to justify war.


It's a two part "condition" because they are joined by 'and' not 'or' so both must apply as a condition for Bush determining that war would become necessary at some point in the future.

{{{(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to:

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq}}}

Now you need to explain how the requirement to "enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq" is a justification for war. That makes no sense whatsoever. Can you explain why you think it makes sense to you?

 

[Tehon]

Tehon 14177512 They are not conditions junior, they are justifications.

That's cute, but not close to a realistic argument against the fact that these are conditions pressed on Bush in order to justify war.


It's a two part "condition" because they are joined by 'and' not 'or' so both must apply as a condition for Bush determining that war would become necessary at some point in the future.

{{{(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to:

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq}}}

Now you need to explain how the requirement to "enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq" is a justification for war. That makes no sense whatsoever. Can you explain why you think it makes sense to you?[/QUOTE]
Can you explain why you think it makes sense to you?

Because English is my first language and I understand the difference between a condition and a justification. Have you chosen a college yet?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Tehon 14177910

She voted to authorize military force in a situation that you freely admit was unnecessary. History confirms the veracity of my case against her, even if you lack the integrity to admit it.

History confirms nothing for you except your refusal to see history in context and over a six month span.

And you got my position entirely wrong. The facts tell us that war in October 2002 was not necessary. The facts also tell us that the vote to authorize military force against Iraq was at that time was a fair and honest judgment by Congress Members that did vote in favor for many reasons.

(1) Iraq was in violation of international law by not allowing UN inspectors to complete their work for four years.
(2) 09/11/01 made the matter of 'potential' WMD under the control of Saddam Hussein a 'continuing' threat to the U.S. and US allies.
(3) Saddam had a record of saying he would allow unfettered inspections and then not deliver on his word.
(4) Bush and Blair had stepped up bombing Iraq during the summer of 2002. A bombing war was going on prior to any AUMF being passed. It was open commentary that prior to September 2002, Bush and Blair were attempting to provoke Saddam into an incident that would justify war. No bother getting UN approval.
(5) in September 2002, Bush began singing the UN diplomatic solution tune, going with Colin Powell and pissing Dick Cheney off in the process. It began to look like war could be avoided if Saddam Hussein would genuinely submit to new tougher inspection rules.
(6) Bush could have invaded Iraq without inspection and without a new Iraq based AUMF by attaching Iraq to the AUMF passed right after the 9/11/01 attack.
(7) Based on all the above and many unmentioned factors, a valid argument emerged that war could best be avoided more likely if Congress showed solidarity with the President that Saddam must allow unfettered inspections very soon if a U.S. Military enforcement of UNSC RESOLUTIONS was to be avoided. Like Bush says, diplomacy was always his first choice. It's too bad Bush is a liar.

 

[easyt65]

Add another American killed to Obama's body count.

After being too incompetent to safe-guard our victory in Iraq (Iraqi liberation by allowing ISIS to march into Iraq unopposed to begin taking over the country our military had liberated at great cost) AND vowed 'no more combat troops in Iraq, a SpecOps troop was killed by ISIS...evidently while 'observing'...NOT participating in combat.