Republican crooks claim Coal Ash is not Toxic

[flacaltenn]

Yet --- you roasted marshmallows over charcoal briquets and ate more fly ash than
a person living close to a power plant..

Your response above was desparate posturing Oroman.. Snarky deflections -- not much else.
For instance..

Not in the state of Kentucky, and I don't know what state does allow it. Do you?

I can name MANY lakes and rivers in Kentucky where discharges ARE KNOWN, ARE MONITORED, and for which recreational uses have not been curtailed..

New Report Shows All 20 Coal-fired Power Plants in Kentucky Discharge Toxic Coal Ash or Wastewater, Highlighting Critical Need for Strong Federal Standards | Sierra Club National

New Report Shows All 20 Coal-fired Power Plants in Kentucky Discharge Toxic Coal Ash or Wastewater, Highlighting Critical Need for Strong Federal Standards
1 ..Tuesday, July 23, 2013
Contact:
Alison Flowers, Sierra club associate press secretary, 303-246-6297, [email protected]
Thomas Pearce, Sierra Club organizer, Sierra Club 502-489-4700, Western Kentucky
Alex De Sha, Sierra Club organizer, 606-210-0761, Eastern Kentucky
LOUISVILLE, KY -- Today, a coalition of environmental and clean water groups, including the Sierra Club, released a new report demonstrating the importance of strong U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) standards that limit toxic water pollution from coal plants for Kentucky. The report, “Closing the Floodgates: How the Coal Industry Is Poisoning Our Water and How We Can Stop It,” reviewed water permits for 386 coal plants across the country, and sought to identify whether states have upheld the Clean Water Act by effectively protecting families from toxic water pollution.

Evidently --- EVERYONE but you knows this.. And it's ALLOWED, because Fish/Game, and state fed enviro monitors are WATCHING the waterways for evidence of toxins ABOVE current limits..

That's the way it's done. We don't close down EVERY industrial activity in this country BECAUSE there MIGHT be minute quantities of toxins generated in the process..

Go light up the grill and try to keep the ashes off your tube steaks..

 

[Kosh]

Ok some of you need to stop posting facts to defeat this, as it derails the propaganda thread.

 

[flacaltenn]

Ok some of you need to stop posting facts to defeat this, as it derails the propaganda thread.

you could be right.. Some folks are working too hard..

others ?? not so much..

 

[Abraham3]

Prior to the installation of the NOx burners, there was NO such fly ash stream, so it didn't eliminate an existing revenue source, it simply failed to produce a new one for them.

Not true -- scrubbers designs pre-dated the NOx SOx reducers that DID produce a fly ash stream more amenable to recycling..

Prior to NOx and SOx scrubbers?!?! What were they scrubbing out? Carbon monoxide?

 

[orogenicman]

Yet --- you roasted marshmallows over charcoal briquettes

Oh really? When did I do this?

and ate more fly ash than a person living close to a power plant..

If you truly believe this, then it is only because you've never lived near one. I have.

Your response above was desparate posturing Oroman.. Snarky deflections -- not much else.
For instance..

Not in the state of Kentucky, and I don't know what state does allow it. Do you?

I can name MANY lakes and rivers in Kentucky where discharges ARE KNOWN, ARE MONITORED, and for which recreational uses have not been curtailed..

New Report Shows All 20 Coal-fired Power Plants in Kentucky Discharge Toxic Coal Ash or Wastewater, Highlighting Critical Need for Strong Federal Standards | Sierra Club National

New Report Shows All 20 Coal-fired Power Plants in Kentucky Discharge Toxic Coal Ash or Wastewater, Highlighting Critical Need for Strong Federal Standards
1 ..Tuesday, July 23, 2013
Contact:
Alison Flowers, Sierra club associate press secretary, 303-246-6297, [email protected]
Thomas Pearce, Sierra Club organizer, Sierra Club 502-489-4700, Western Kentucky
Alex De Sha, Sierra Club organizer, 606-210-0761, Eastern Kentucky
LOUISVILLE, KY -- Today, a coalition of environmental and clean water groups, including the Sierra Club, released a new report demonstrating the importance of strong U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) standards that limit toxic water pollution from coal plants for Kentucky. The report, “Closing the Floodgates: How the Coal Industry Is Poisoning Our Water and How We Can Stop It,” reviewed water permits for 386 coal plants across the country, and sought to identify whether states have upheld the Clean Water Act by effectively protecting families from toxic water pollution.

Evidently --- EVERYONE but you knows this.. And it's ALLOWED, because Fish/Game, and state fed enviro monitors are WATCHING the waterways for evidence of toxins ABOVE current limits..

That's the way it's done. We don't close down EVERY industrial activity in this country BECAUSE there MIGHT be minute quantities of toxins generated in the process..

Go light up the grill and try to keep the ashes off your tube steaks..

It was pretty clear to me that your argument was that these releases were ALLOWED, i.e., legal. That they occur is not in doubt. That they are allowed or even legal is the issue. But hey, it is good to know that you acknowledge that they are poisoning our waterways. I gathered from your earlier arguments that you thought all this poison was just so much industrial candy to be concerned about.

The fact is that some of these releases are permitted under State and federal discharge permits, but the issue is whether that should be stopped altogether or whether stronger permitting standards should be promulgated. I believe they need to be stopped altogether if we are to provide current and future safe drinking water and a safe environment for our families.

 

[orogenicman]

Prior to the installation of the NOx burners, there was NO such fly ash stream, so it didn't eliminate an existing revenue source, it simply failed to produce a new one for them.

Not true -- scrubbers designs pre-dated the NOx SOx reducers that DID produce a fly ash stream more amenable to recycling..

Prior to NOx and SOx scrubbers?!?! What were they scrubbing out? Carbon monoxide?

There were no scrubbers at all until the clean air act was passed and enforcement began. When I was a child, my mother's car and our house used to get daily doses of ash from the Cane Run Power plant. That ash came from the stacks not the fly ash tailings, which, at that time, was a tiny fraction of what it is today.

 

[skookerasbil]

The AGW nutters get hysterical over anything.


A non-story.


Coal is hitting it BIG time in places like Germany these days ( a million links about this in the thread PROOF THE SKEPTICS ARE WINNING in this forum ), importing much of it from the good ole US of A.!!!!


Nobody cares about t his except the internet environmental OCD's.

 

[Dot Com]

Yet --- you roasted marshmallows over charcoal briquettes

Oh really? When did I do this?

and ate more fly ash than a person living close to a power plant..

If you truly believe this, then it is only because you've never lived near one. I have.

Your response above was desparate posturing Oroman.. Snarky deflections -- not much else.
For instance..




It was pretty clear to me that your argument was that these releases were ALLOWED, i.e., legal. That they occur is not in doubt. That they are allowed or even legal is the issue. But hey, it is good to know that you acknowledge that they are poisoning our waterways. I gathered from your earlier arguments that you thought all this poison was just so much industrial candy to be concerned about.

The fact is that some of these releases are permitted under State and federal discharge permits, but the issue is whether that should be stopped altogether or whether stronger permitting standards should be promulgated. I believe they need to be stopped altogether if we are to provide current and future safe drinking water and a safe environment for our families.

we all know that repubs would shut down the EPA, along w/ OSHA, tomorrow, given the chance so a rw talking about regs and citing Sierra Club to buttress his argument is grasping at straws. AS IF politicians hands couldn't be greased to get a pro-coal sentence or two inserted into a regulatory update

 

[skookerasbil]

Anybody who thinks the EPA is about the environment has been spending too much time in the woods.




For those a bit bored of spending their lives in the woods >>>



http://green-agenda.com/

 

[flacaltenn]

Well we got the "any pollution is cause for shut down" contigient. And the contigient that places total faith in the EPA --- but won't accept the science of determining harmful levels..

And the rest of us have scientific method to ASSESS and quantify what the harmful levels of substances really really are. So we can not worry about crap we dont HAVE to worry about..

Like for instance.. A report on the containment of ash ponds might read sumthin like this here...

http://www.uky.edu/KGS/pdf/ri11_11.pdf

The effects of two coal-ash disposal facilities on ground-water quality at the John Sherman Cooper Power Plant, located in a karst region of south-central Kentucky, were evaluated using dye traces in springs. Springs were used for monitoring rather than wells, because in a karst terrane wells are unlikely to intercept individual conduits.

A closed-out ash pond located over a conduit-flow system discharges to three springs in the upper Salem and Warsaw Formations along Lake Cumberland. Water discharging from these downgradient springs is similar to springs unaffected by ash-disposal facilities and is a calcium-bicarbonate type. No constituent concentrations found in this flow system exceeded maximum contaminant levels (MCL’s) or secondary maximum contaminant levels (SMCL’s) defined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

An active ash pond is situated over another conduit-flow system that discharges to springs in the lower St.Louis Limestone. Water discharging from these downgradient springs is intermediate between the calciumbicarbonate type of the unaffected springs and the calcium-sulfate type of the active ash pond. No constituent concentrations found in this flow system exceeded MCL’s or SMCL’s.

A third flow system associated with a coal stockpile adjacent to the plant is delineated by springs in the St.Louis Limestone and the Salem and Warsaw Formations that discharge calcium-sulfate type water. Chromium and cadmium concentrations exceeded MCL’s in at least one sample from this flow system. Iron,manganese, sulfate, and total dissolved solid concentrations exceeded SMCL’s in at least one sample.

The closed-out ash pond appears to have no adverse impact on the water quality, nor does the active ash pond. In general, the coal stockpile has a more adverse impact on ground-water quality in the study area than the ash-disposal facilities.

That's how its done in the modern real world...

 

[orogenicman]

Anybody who thinks the EPA is about the environment has been spending too much time in the woods.

Anyone who thinks that the EPA is NOT about the environment hasn't spent any time with EPA officials or enforcing the regulations. I can think of at least one person on this thread (actually more than one) for which this applies.

 

[orogenicman]

Well we got the "any pollution is cause for shut down" contigient. And the contigient that places total faith in the EPA --- but won't accept the science of determining harmful levels..

And the rest of us have scientific method to ASSESS and quantify what the harmful levels of substances really really are. So we can not worry about crap we dont HAVE to worry about..

Like for instance.. A report on the containment of ash ponds might read sumthin like this here...

http://www.uky.edu/KGS/pdf/ri11_11.pdf

The effects of two coal-ash disposal facilities on ground-water quality at the John Sherman Cooper Power Plant, located in a karst region of south-central Kentucky, were evaluated using dye traces in springs. Springs were used for monitoring rather than wells, because in a karst terrane wells are unlikely to intercept individual conduits.

A closed-out ash pond located over a conduit-flow system discharges to three springs in the upper Salem and Warsaw Formations along Lake Cumberland. Water discharging from these downgradient springs is similar to springs unaffected by ash-disposal facilities and is a calcium-bicarbonate type. No constituent concentrations found in this flow system exceeded maximum contaminant levels (MCL’s) or secondary maximum contaminant levels (SMCL’s) defined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

An active ash pond is situated over another conduit-flow system that discharges to springs in the lower St.Louis Limestone. Water discharging from these downgradient springs is intermediate between the calciumbicarbonate type of the unaffected springs and the calcium-sulfate type of the active ash pond. No constituent concentrations found in this flow system exceeded MCL’s or SMCL’s.

A third flow system associated with a coal stockpile adjacent to the plant is delineated by springs in the St.Louis Limestone and the Salem and Warsaw Formations that discharge calcium-sulfate type water. Chromium and cadmium concentrations exceeded MCL’s in at least one sample from this flow system. Iron,manganese, sulfate, and total dissolved solid concentrations exceeded SMCL’s in at least one sample.

The closed-out ash pond appears to have no adverse impact on the water quality, nor does the active ash pond. In general, the coal stockpile has a more adverse impact on ground-water quality in the study area than the ash-disposal facilities.

That's how its done in the modern real world...

Yes, and in the real world of Kentucky Karst, the soils on which these ash ponds are located are a terra rosa clay that are for all intents and purposes impermeable. All that report proves is that the clay beneath the ash ponds is not leaking. This is NOT the situation at the Cane Run plant, which has its monstrous fly ash landfill located on the terrace of the Ohio River, which is composed of sand and silt, and which directly overlies the sand and gravel valley train deposits that contain the Louisville aquifer, which from a hydrological point of view is considered an infinite aquifer because of it's extremely high hydraulic conductivity.

 

[Smilodonfatalis]

It's ASH not Chemicals , ashes , in case you weren't aware are a naturally occurring substance and are not very harmful. Now if you wanna talk about Love Canal or Global Warming theory perhaps you'll be garnished with some credibility

{Just curious - that's not really you in that profile pic is it ? ... I should have known - a Blonde ! .... youre like a beer bottle empty from the neck up}

If you understood anything about science, you would know ashes are made up of chemicals. And high levels of mercury, arsenic, etc. are harmful.

It's 99.999% inert material. It has higher concentrations of certain toxic substances. That doesn't make it "hazardous waste." Do you want your children to play in it? No, obviously not. However, that doesn't mean it needs to be treated the same PCBs.

If your claim were true, then human sewage would have to be treated as hazardous waste, and every city in the country would have to be shut down.

I see you don't understand basic chemistry either.

Ash is not an "inert material." It will react with other substances.

Sewage is treated as hazardous waste.

 

[Smilodonfatalis]

If you understood anything about science, you would know ashes are made up of chemicals. And high levels of mercury, arsenic, etc. are harmful.

It's 99.999% inert material. It has higher concentrations of certain toxic substances. That doesn't make it "hazardous waste." Do you want your children to play in it? No, obviously not. However, that doesn't mean it needs to be treated the same PCBs.

If your claim were true, then human sewage would have to be treated as hazardous waste, and every city in the country would have to be shut down.

Coal ash pollution contains toxins such as arsenic, lead, selenium, and chromium. But in trace amounts.

Decaying leaves also produce Toxins - leaves litter the forest floors - should all forests be considered toxic waste sites ? As previously posted feces is high in Toxins. ....speaking of feces ... some of the posts on this thread resemble feces - should they be considered Toxic Waste and treated like PCBs ?

You keep posting your stupidity.

We'll keep laughing.

Comparing decaying leaves with coal ash is about as stupid as your claim that ash isn't a chemical.

The amount of toxins in decaying leaves is negligible. The amount of toxins in coal ash is not negligible.

Your point about human feces has already been debunked numerous times. Feces is hazardous waste.

 

[Smilodonfatalis]

5 years after coal-ash spill, little has changed

The House has even passed a bill, claiming that Coal Ash is not Toxic.

I guess next they will pass a bill claiming up is down.

Below is a quote from the Environmental Health Policy Institute

"coal's post-combustion wastes contain a highly concentrated toxic stew of heavy metals, from arsenic, boron, and chromium to lead, mercury, selenium, and zinc."

The Environmental Health Policy Institute is a branch of the group Physicians for Social Responsibility. In other words, it's a den of communists. It has no credibility whatsoever.

Your own article failed to mention any bill declaring coal ash to be non toxic. However, it did mention that the EPA wants it to be declared to be hazardous waste, which would increase the cost of using coal to generate electricity by several orders of magnitude.

Maybe you should actually try reading the USA Today article (it's not mine...I didn't write it.)

Here's the relevant quote:

Thomas Adams, executive director of the American Coal Ash Association, which supports recycling the material, said better regulation is needed, but the waste shouldn't be classified as hazardous. Such a move would halt recycling, he said.

A powerful group of senators in 2010 — including Sens. Lamar Alexander and Bob Corker, Republicans of Tennessee — wrote a letter to then-EPA administrator Lisa Jackson urging her not to follow through on the proposal.

The association supports legislation sponsored by Rep. David McKinley, R-W.Va.

The bill, passed by the House this year, would establish minimum requirements for the management and disposal of coal ash.

The proposal, though, strips the EPA of its authority to regulate coal ash as a hazardous material and environmental groups oppose it.

The coal ash association doesn't want the waste to be declared hazardous. Legislation sponsored by David McKinley and passed by republican crooks in Congress declares coal ash not to be a hazardous material.

 

[Smilodonfatalis]

Anyone who thinks coal ash is not a toxic waste should read this report:

http://earthjustice.org/sites/default/files/files/CoalAsh_Earthjustice.pdf

 

[flacaltenn]

5 years after coal-ash spill, little has changed

The House has even passed a bill, claiming that Coal Ash is not Toxic.

I guess next they will pass a bill claiming up is down.

Below is a quote from the Environmental Health Policy Institute

"coal's post-combustion wastes contain a highly concentrated toxic stew of heavy metals, from arsenic, boron, and chromium to lead, mercury, selenium, and zinc."

The Environmental Health Policy Institute is a branch of the group Physicians for Social Responsibility. In other words, it's a den of communists. It has no credibility whatsoever.

Your own article failed to mention any bill declaring coal ash to be non toxic. However, it did mention that the EPA wants it to be declared to be hazardous waste, which would increase the cost of using coal to generate electricity by several orders of magnitude.

Maybe you should actually try reading the USA Today article (it's not mine...I didn't write it.)

Here's the relevant quote:

Thomas Adams, executive director of the American Coal Ash Association, which supports recycling the material, said better regulation is needed, but the waste shouldn't be classified as hazardous. Such a move would halt recycling, he said.

A powerful group of senators in 2010 — including Sens. Lamar Alexander and Bob Corker, Republicans of Tennessee — wrote a letter to then-EPA administrator Lisa Jackson urging her not to follow through on the proposal.

The association supports legislation sponsored by Rep. David McKinley, R-W.Va.

The bill, passed by the House this year, would establish minimum requirements for the management and disposal of coal ash.

The proposal, though, strips the EPA of its authority to regulate coal ash as a hazardous material and environmental groups oppose it.

The coal ash association doesn't want the waste to be declared hazardous. Legislation sponsored by David McKinley and passed by republican crooks in Congress declares coal ash not to be a hazardous material.

Just repeating the assertions in the OP does not advance your argument.. The ash is a valuable byproduct --- just as biosolids from the sewage waste you call TOXIC waste can be a valuable byproduct.. MUNICIPAL SEWAGE SOLIDS are ROUTINELY approved to be spread over food crops... You got a problem with that??

Certainly don't want to DISCOURAGE the cement and drywall industry further and cause MORE of these to come from overseas... Or maybe leftists dont care about that.

I don't see a bunch of hazmat teams arriving in the aftermath of a forest fire -- yet those chaotic events scatter the "pollutants" even farther than a contained ash pond..

We KNOW what to sample for.. We KNOW what levels are dangerous.. If all that regulation and oversight that you value is soooooo damn ingenious and failproof ---

Why are afraid to let the regulators do their job??

(i know the answer -- but I want to hear it from a leftist)

 

[polarbear]

Ethylene oxide is not present is a separate phase in cosmetics. Moreover, ethylene oxide is also used to make vitamin B12.

PAHs are a primary constituent of diesel fuel. Are you going to promote banning the use of diesel fuel?

I can go through that entire list, if you like.

How much more stupid can you get?
Ethyleneoxide or any other toxin does not have to be present as a seperate phase to be toxic, you idiot !
It`s not used to MAKE vitamin B1, its used as a sterilizer for the raw material before vitamins are extracted.
On contact it will even destroy B vitamins

PAHs are a primary constituent of diesel fuel. Are you going to promote banning the use of diesel fuel?

Nobody I know uses Diesel fuel as a body lotion

 

[orogenicman]

Ethylene oxide is not present is a separate phase in cosmetics. Moreover, ethylene oxide is also used to make vitamin B12.

PAHs are a primary constituent of diesel fuel. Are you going to promote banning the use of diesel fuel?

I can go through that entire list, if you like.

How much more stupid can you get?
Ethyleneoxide or any other toxin does not have to be present as a seperate phase to be toxic, you idiot !
It`s not used to MAKE vitamin B1, its used as a sterilizer for the raw material before vitamins are extracted.
On contact it will even destroy B vitamins

PAHs are a primary constituent of diesel fuel. Are you going to promote banning the use of diesel fuel?

Nobody I know uses Diesel fuel as a body lotion

I didn't say it was used to make vitamin B1. It is used to make vitamin B12. I know this because my twin brother used to work for a company that made it using ethylene oxide, trimethylamine, and HCl. In fact, that company was one of only two that were making it when he worked there. Unfortunately, that company was bought out in a hostile takeover, and the people who bought it ran it into the ground, and it went belly up.

Nobody I know claimed that diesel fuel is used as a body lotion, so - straw man argument.

 

[polarbear]

Anyone who thinks coal ash is not a toxic waste should read this report:

http://earthjustice.org/sites/default/files/files/CoalAsh_Earthjustice.pdf

So do your part then,turn off your hydro and quit consuming the goods that involve toxins in the process.
That includes your feminine "personal care" products, your latest lap-top PC, buying the latest cell phone and scrapping the old one.
Do you have any idea how much Gallium Arsenide was in the PC or in the cell phone you scrapped?
What the f- is it that you freaks want from the rest of us?
Quit buying the goods we produce and start making your own stuff using only non-toxic materials.
Like go and live on some Amish Colony.

Let`s see how fast they kick your dumb ass when you tell their blacksmith that he is not supposed to burn coal when he makes horse shoes