"Report: Ukrainian and DNC connection in 2016 election getting larger in scope"

[Care4all]

Dr. Fiona Hill looked like an idiot after she testified that the delayed military aid was essential for national security.
Then she was asked why she recommended against "lethal military aid" when the Ukes were actually fighting the Russians and taking 14,000 casualties.
The Obama admin sent them "blankets" as McCain described it. Trump sent them Javelin anti-tank weapons.
Dr. Hill said "she changed her mind" WTF? Ridiculous. Some fucking Russia expert. More of an idiot.
So who was right, Trump or Dr. Hill?

Dr. Hill. It would have been foolish to send weapons to Ukraine in 2014 when the country was still rife with corruption... Then the West cracked down and told them reform was required to get aid, and that is exactly what was done.

Again, we aren't talking about what kind of aid when. We are talking about Trump specifically withholding aid to get the Ukraine to launch investigations into his enemies... that's why he's being impeached.

1. Sending lethal US weapons like anti-tank Javelins, or not, to the Ukraine in 2014 had nothing to do with "corruption". That's when there was intense fighting in east Ukraine and they really needed the "lethal" aid. So Dr. Hill's whining that Trump withheld desperately needed aid for a few weeks and that affected US national security is total hypocritical bullshit. The US military is just fine with or without the Ukraine, thank you.
Russian military intervention in Ukraine (2014–present) - Wikipedia
Impeachment witness Fiona Hill once opposed sending lethal aid to Ukraine in fight with Russia

2. Burisma and other Ukrainian corporations are still corrupt as testified to by all of Schiff's witnesses. The point being that Trump withheld the aid while the Ukraine changed regimes from Poroshenko to Zelensky and implemented anti-corruption measures. Poroshenko went to Russia and took about $30b in stolen funds. The delay was totally justified.

3. There may have been many reasons to withhold the release of the $400m. How do you know it was ONLY for "announcing an investigation into Burisma"?
Explain to me how investigating a corrupt Burisma is an investigation into Joe Biden? I call total bullshit.

the delay WAS NOT justified...it broke the law.

the law states that the Pentagon had to investigate the Ukraine for any corruption before they could release the military aid money...
the aid appropriation was passed by congress and signed by the president in February 2019.

The Pentagon investigated all in the Ukraine and early June 2019 they finished their investigation and gave the clear, to release the aid.

Trump illegally stopped the release of the aid, without notifying congress and giving his reason...which also broke the law.

1. The delay did not break the law, bullshit. Funding is delayed all the time for many legitimate reasons
2. Agreed that the pentagon investigated the Ukraine and said it was ok
3. Agreed that the money was approved by congress and the president

The other pertinent "facts" that you are ignoring are:
1. The Ukraine just had elections and Poroshenko was out and Zelensky was in
2. Poroshenko went to Russia and took about $30 of Ukraiinaian funds
3. The Ukraine was changing administrations fro Poroshenko's guys to Zelensky's guys
4. Their "parliament" was revising laws to deter corruption,
5. Trump wanted the EU to kick-in more funding
6. Burisma and other corporations were still too powerful and corrupt, as testified to by Schiff's witnsses
7. Trump delayed the funding as long as he could without jeopardizing it, then released it
8. When he released it the new government was up and running.

once the money was cleared to be released in June by our Defense dept who by law required to investigate and make certain no new corruption was going to take the funds, he held it back and did not notify congress on the military aid being held back, nor did he give any legit reason for holding it back.... that was not legal.

The staff responsible for issuing the money in every single case of sending military aid to all countries by Congress and law that allocated it,

was pushed aside, and a Trump politico hired, took over....to hold the money back, illegally... because the steady state workers were going to follow legal procedure and release it....
---------------
Giuliani was working with the previous corrupt govt before Velensky won, trying to get dirt on Bidens... then when they lost, Giuliani had to start all over again....
---------------------
Burisma's owner is corrupt, I don't have much doubt on that... Ukraine should investigate him... the bullcrap was Trump telling Zelensky to investigate Bidens...INSTEAD of mentioning Burisma's corruption.

but also, they were not going to get any of the new military aid
------------------------
Trump using his personal campaign lawyer, Giuliani, and the two goon crooks, and a KGB schooled Ukrainian parliament guy, and a corrupt Russian sympathizer prosecutor, and another corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor and an oligarch awaiting extradition for money laundering in the the USA as his sources pushing this bull crap story that Joe Biden is corrupt, with alleged Burisma ledgers as proof is a bunch of corrupt Malarchy.... replacing our own diplomatic policy with Trump's personal gainful wishes, is a crock full of swamp goo. I wouldn't put my faith in it, that's for certain!

------------------------------

if the corruption in the Ukraine was his concern, he would have followed the law and agreement we have with the Ukraine, and used the DOJ, AG Barr to LEGALLY INVESTIGATE an American, overseas, with the prosecutor general in the Ukraine....

---------------------------------
If the president was legitimately investigate corruption in the Ukraine,

A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT of investigating the Bidens on CNN would NOT have been required, as it WAS, in order to get a well coveted meeting in DC....

--------------------------

HOW IN THE HECK is holding back military aid to Zelensky going to get The EU to donate more money? the Ukraine can't force them to give him more money? That's batsh*t crazy of an excuse....

And let me remind you, he never gave anyone an excuse, he never gave Congress an excuse.

 

[edthecynic]

I might also add, no investigatiions were started so they must not have been pressured too much.

BULLSHIT!
Ukraine To Review Criminal Cases Possibly Linked To Bidens

Ukraine’s top prosecutor said Friday he will review closed criminal investigations linked to Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian natural gas company that employed Hunter Biden on its board.
The prosecutor, Ruslan Ryaboshapka, said at least 15 investigations were linked to Burisma. He vowed to audit all of them.

 

[Butch_Coolidge]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JoeB131]

1. 2014 was when the heavy fighting was happening in east Ukraine, and when the Ukraine really needed the "lethal aid". There was no excuse for sending blankets instead of Javelin anti-tank weapons. How many of the 14,000 dead Ukes could have been averted if they had proper weapons? Dr. Hill admitted she fucked it up and changed her mind.

Nothing to do with Trump trying to shake them down to do a sham investigation- NEXT.

2. Trump doesn't need to justify anything to congress.

That's the absolute scariest thing about you Trump Cultists. Imagine your reaction if Obama took that attitude.

3. I'm not a fan of the clumsy "announce the investigation and we'll release the money" ploy. Trump had every legitimate right to require an investigation of Burisma before releasing the money. Trump fucked up by saying "investigate the Bidens". That was just an unforced error. I don't believe that's an impeachable error, but its an error. Trump just proved he's not as smart as he thinks he is. Lesson learned, he is NOT the fucking CEO of the Federal government.

No, that's a crime... a pretty clear one. Bursima had nothing to do with the aid, and there was no compelling reason to investigate Bursima. This was merely trying to get the Ukraine to smear his enemies.

If there was a crime, Trump has a whole Justice Department to investigate. The problem being, of course, is they ALREADY TOLD HIM there was nothing to these Conspiracy Theories....

4. I still call bullshit on smearing Joe Biden. A Ukrainian investigation can't invent wrongdoing for Joe Biden if he's not involved with Burisma. Either Joe Biden got some of that Burisma/Soros cash via QPQ, or he didn't.

Again, how would the Ukraine know where that money went after it was paid to Boies Schiller Flexner? It would seem that these thing would be easily investigated on our side. Of course, if Trump and Barr opened such an investigation, it would be as much of a crime than when Nixon used the FBI and IRS to spy on his opponents.

 

[DBA]

LOL...I guess you continue to believe hearsay and second hand information and ignore Zelinsky himself. I might also add, no investigatiions were started so they must not have been pressured too much.

You are a good little lemming.

Yes, I believe our own diplomatic and intelligence professionals over a Comedian who got elected and doesn't want to get in the middle of our electoral squabbles.

And you dont believe the person who had first had knowledge of the siituation and as supposedly a victim of the Quid Pro Quo. The left-wing and those that are corrupt in our intelligence agencies LOVE people liike you.

 

[iceberg]

Dr. Fiona Hill looked like an idiot after she testified that the delayed military aid was essential for national security.
Then she was asked why she recommended against "lethal military aid" when the Ukes were actually fighting the Russians and taking 14,000 casualties.
The Obama admin sent them "blankets" as McCain described it. Trump sent them Javelin anti-tank weapons.
Dr. Hill said "she changed her mind" WTF? Ridiculous. Some fucking Russia expert. More of an idiot.
So who was right, Trump or Dr. Hill?

Dr. Hill. It would have been foolish to send weapons to Ukraine in 2014 when the country was still rife with corruption... Then the West cracked down and told them reform was required to get aid, and that is exactly what was done.

Again, we aren't talking about what kind of aid when. We are talking about Trump specifically withholding aid to get the Ukraine to launch investigations into his enemies... that's why he's being impeached.

1. Sending lethal US weapons like anti-tank Javelins, or not, to the Ukraine in 2014 had nothing to do with "corruption". That's when there was intense fighting in east Ukraine and they really needed the "lethal" aid. So Dr. Hill's whining that Trump withheld desperately needed aid for a few weeks and that affected US national security is total hypocritical bullshit. The US military is just fine with or without the Ukraine, thank you.
Russian military intervention in Ukraine (2014–present) - Wikipedia
Impeachment witness Fiona Hill once opposed sending lethal aid to Ukraine in fight with Russia

2. Burisma and other Ukrainian corporations are still corrupt as testified to by all of Schiff's witnesses. The point being that Trump withheld the aid while the Ukraine changed regimes from Poroshenko to Zelensky and implemented anti-corruption measures. Poroshenko went to Russia and took about $30b in stolen funds. The delay was totally justified.

3. There may have been many reasons to withhold the release of the $400m. How do you know it was ONLY for "announcing an investigation into Burisma"?
Explain to me how investigating a corrupt Burisma is an investigation into Joe Biden? I call total bullshit.

the delay WAS NOT justified...it broke the law.

the law states that the Pentagon had to investigate the Ukraine for any corruption before they could release the military aid money...
the aid appropriation was passed by congress and signed by the president in February 2019.

The Pentagon investigated all in the Ukraine and early June 2019 they finished their investigation and gave the clear, to release the aid.

Trump illegally stopped the release of the aid, without notifying congress and giving his reason...which also broke the law.

1. The delay did not break the law, bullshit. Funding is delayed all the time for many legitimate reasons
2. Agreed that the pentagon investigated the Ukraine and said it was ok
3. Agreed that the money was approved by congress and the president

The other pertinent "facts" that you are ignoring are:
1. The Ukraine just had elections and Poroshenko was out and Zelensky was in
2. Poroshenko went to Russia and took about $30 of Ukraiinaian funds
3. The Ukraine was changing administrations fro Poroshenko's guys to Zelensky's guys
4. Their "parliament" was revising laws to deter corruption,
5. Trump wanted the EU to kick-in more funding
6. Burisma and other corporations were still too powerful and corrupt, as testified to by Schiff's witnsses
7. Trump delayed the funding as long as he could without jeopardizing it, then released it
8. When he released it the new government was up and running.

once the money was cleared to be released in June by our Defense dept who by law required to investigate and make certain no new corruption was going to take the funds, he held it back and did not notify congress on the military aid being held back, nor did he give any legit reason for holding it back.... that was not legal.

The staff responsible for issuing the money in every single case of sending military aid to all countries by Congress and law that allocated it,

was pushed aside, and a Trump politico hired, took over....to hold the money back, illegally... because the steady state workers were going to follow legal procedure and release it....
---------------
Giuliani was working with the previous corrupt govt before Velensky won, trying to get dirt on Bidens... then when they lost, Giuliani had to start all over again....
---------------------
Burisma's owner is corrupt, I don't have much doubt on that... Ukraine should investigate him... the bullcrap was Trump telling Zelensky to investigate Bidens...INSTEAD of mentioning Burisma's corruption.

but also, they were not going to get any of the new military aid
------------------------
Trump using his personal campaign lawyer, Giuliani, and the two goon crooks, and a KGB schooled Ukrainian parliament guy, and a corrupt Russian sympathizer prosecutor, and another corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor and an oligarch awaiting extradition for money laundering in the the USA as his sources pushing this bull crap story that Joe Biden is corrupt, with alleged Burisma ledgers as proof is a bunch of corrupt Malarchy.... replacing our own diplomatic policy with Trump's personal gainful wishes, is a crock full of swamp goo. I wouldn't put my faith in it, that's for certain!

------------------------------

if the corruption in the Ukraine was his concern, he would have followed the law and agreement we have with the Ukraine, and used the DOJ, AG Barr to LEGALLY INVESTIGATE an American, overseas, with the prosecutor general in the Ukraine....

---------------------------------
If the president was legitimately investigate corruption in the Ukraine,

A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT of investigating the Bidens on CNN would NOT have been required, as it WAS, in order to get a well coveted meeting in DC....

--------------------------

HOW IN THE HECK is holding back military aid to Zelensky going to get The EU to donate more money? the Ukraine can't force them to give him more money? That's batsh*t crazy of an excuse....

And let me remind you, he never gave anyone an excuse, he never gave Congress an excuse.

not as if trump is GIVING excuses, the left will find whatever they wish and MAKE it their excuse.

you love cooking up trump conspiracies from loose links to vague stories and yet, the impeachment report says no laws broken, yet again, by trump. yet you keep pushing and 100% refuse to look into the activities of the left where we have proof and ACTUAL witnesses to say what happened. to that you're FAKE NEWS.

 

[JoeB131]

And you dont believe the person who had first had knowledge of the siituation and as supposedly a victim of the Quid Pro Quo. The left-wing and those that are corrupt in our intelligence agencies LOVE people liike you.

I honestly believe the guy doesn't want to get emeshed in our politics or admit that he was about to get on his knees for Trump.

I also find it amusing that you apparently think that our intelligence agencies are corrupt, but Trump is honest.

 

[JoeB131]

not as if trump is GIVING excuses, the left will find whatever they wish and MAKE it their excuse.

you love cooking up trump conspiracies from loose links to vague stories and yet, the impeachment report says no laws broken, yet again, by trump. yet you keep pushing and 100% refuse to look into the activities of the left where we have proof and ACTUAL witnesses to say what happened. to that you're FAKE NEWS.

We have proof that Trump tried to shake down the Ukraine.

But one more time... Trump should direct Mulveny, Guiliani, Pompeo, Barr and himself to testify, and clear up all these misunderstandings.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The willingness of some USMB members to buy into this “Ukrainians help DNC” conspiracy is hilarious.

If the OP or any of the members who believe that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election would like to call in to our broadcast tonight, we’ll give you an opportunity to explain your beliefs.

Here’s the link.

Worlds Collide Ep. 6 - How Was Your Bird?

 

[kyzr]

Dr. Fiona Hill looked like an idiot after she testified that the delayed military aid was essential for national security.
Then she was asked why she recommended against "lethal military aid" when the Ukes were actually fighting the Russians and taking 14,000 casualties.
The Obama admin sent them "blankets" as McCain described it. Trump sent them Javelin anti-tank weapons.
Dr. Hill said "she changed her mind" WTF? Ridiculous. Some fucking Russia expert. More of an idiot.
So who was right, Trump or Dr. Hill?

Dr. Hill. It would have been foolish to send weapons to Ukraine in 2014 when the country was still rife with corruption... Then the West cracked down and told them reform was required to get aid, and that is exactly what was done.

Again, we aren't talking about what kind of aid when. We are talking about Trump specifically withholding aid to get the Ukraine to launch investigations into his enemies... that's why he's being impeached.

1. Sending lethal US weapons like anti-tank Javelins, or not, to the Ukraine in 2014 had nothing to do with "corruption". That's when there was intense fighting in east Ukraine and they really needed the "lethal" aid. So Dr. Hill's whining that Trump withheld desperately needed aid for a few weeks and that affected US national security is total hypocritical bullshit. The US military is just fine with or without the Ukraine, thank you.
Russian military intervention in Ukraine (2014–present) - Wikipedia
Impeachment witness Fiona Hill once opposed sending lethal aid to Ukraine in fight with Russia

2. Burisma and other Ukrainian corporations are still corrupt as testified to by all of Schiff's witnesses. The point being that Trump withheld the aid while the Ukraine changed regimes from Poroshenko to Zelensky and implemented anti-corruption measures. Poroshenko went to Russia and took about $30b in stolen funds. The delay was totally justified.

3. There may have been many reasons to withhold the release of the $400m. How do you know it was ONLY for "announcing an investigation into Burisma"?
Explain to me how investigating a corrupt Burisma is an investigation into Joe Biden? I call total bullshit.

the delay WAS NOT justified...it broke the law.

the law states that the Pentagon had to investigate the Ukraine for any corruption before they could release the military aid money...
the aid appropriation was passed by congress and signed by the president in February 2019.

The Pentagon investigated all in the Ukraine and early June 2019 they finished their investigation and gave the clear, to release the aid.

Trump illegally stopped the release of the aid, without notifying congress and giving his reason...which also broke the law.

1. The delay did not break the law, bullshit. Funding is delayed all the time for many legitimate reasons
2. Agreed that the pentagon investigated the Ukraine and said it was ok
3. Agreed that the money was approved by congress and the president

The other pertinent "facts" that you are ignoring are:
1. The Ukraine just had elections and Poroshenko was out and Zelensky was in
2. Poroshenko went to Russia and took about $30 of Ukraiinaian funds
3. The Ukraine was changing administrations fro Poroshenko's guys to Zelensky's guys
4. Their "parliament" was revising laws to deter corruption,
5. Trump wanted the EU to kick-in more funding
6. Burisma and other corporations were still too powerful and corrupt, as testified to by Schiff's witnsses
7. Trump delayed the funding as long as he could without jeopardizing it, then released it
8. When he released it the new government was up and running.

once the money was cleared to be released in June by our Defense dept who by law required to investigate and make certain no new corruption was going to take the funds, he held it back and did not notify congress on the military aid being held back, nor did he give any legit reason for holding it back.... that was not legal.

The staff responsible for issuing the money in every single case of sending military aid to all countries by Congress and law that allocated it,

was pushed aside, and a Trump politico hired, took over....to hold the money back, illegally... because the steady state workers were going to follow legal procedure and release it....
---------------
Giuliani was working with the previous corrupt govt before Velensky won, trying to get dirt on Bidens... then when they lost, Giuliani had to start all over again....
---------------------
Burisma's owner is corrupt, I don't have much doubt on that... Ukraine should investigate him... the bullcrap was Trump telling Zelensky to investigate Bidens...INSTEAD of mentioning Burisma's corruption.

but also, they were not going to get any of the new military aid
------------------------
Trump using his personal campaign lawyer, Giuliani, and the two goon crooks, and a KGB schooled Ukrainian parliament guy, and a corrupt Russian sympathizer prosecutor, and another corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor and an oligarch awaiting extradition for money laundering in the the USA as his sources pushing this bull crap story that Joe Biden is corrupt, with alleged Burisma ledgers as proof is a bunch of corrupt Malarchy.... replacing our own diplomatic policy with Trump's personal gainful wishes, is a crock full of swamp goo. I wouldn't put my faith in it, that's for certain!

------------------------------

if the corruption in the Ukraine was his concern, he would have followed the law and agreement we have with the Ukraine, and used the DOJ, AG Barr to LEGALLY INVESTIGATE an American, overseas, with the prosecutor general in the Ukraine....

---------------------------------
If the president was legitimately investigate corruption in the Ukraine,

A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT of investigating the Bidens on CNN would NOT have been required, as it WAS, in order to get a well coveted meeting in DC....

--------------------------

HOW IN THE HECK is holding back military aid to Zelensky going to get The EU to donate more money? the Ukraine can't force them to give him more money? That's batsh*t crazy of an excuse....

And let me remind you, he never gave anyone an excuse, he never gave Congress an excuse.

I don't think our arguments are too far apart. I agree that the money was released by the pentagon and could have been transferred. My point is that Trump was right to withhold it until Zelensky and his new regime was up and running, and had critical reforms in-place, which happened during the summer. This article is detailed and long, so skip to the bottom and "Conclusions" first:
Zelensky unchained: What Ukraine’s new political order means for its future | European Council on Foreign Relations

Withholding military aid money happens all the time, and for good reason. For example, Lebanon was waiting for theirs longer than Ukraine.

Rudy was probably on an "oppo research" hunt for Trump which is perfectly legal. Its more legal than Hillary hiring Russians to write the Steele Dossier, for example.

Its not just Burisma's owner, the Ukraine still has an "oligarch" problem, and they play rough. Agree Trump misspoke telling Z to investigate the Bidens instead of Burisma. Still not sure why Z didn't just "announce" the investigation and get the money? Maybe he didn't get that's what the deal was??

The crux of the problem as described by Dr. Hill was that "government policy" and "a political errand" had just diverged. The career state department staff wanted no part of the ploy to hold up the funds, as Bolton demonstrated by angrily throwing his shovel down, and as the witnesses all testified. The problem is that Trump has every right to do as he wants with foreign policy. So Trump was going to release the money, he tried for an "oppo research" benefit and it blew up on him. I hope he learned from this mess.

He did ask Z to work with Barr and the DOJ in the phone call to LEGALLY investigate corruption. Agree he should have left it at that. Trump made an unforced error mentioning the "Bidens" and an "announcement". Leveraging the meeting in DC doesn't seem as bad to me?!

Trump is always looking to save money. If he could get the EU to kick-in some funds he could use part of those savings for other purposes. (assumption)

 

[JoeB131]

I don't think our arguments are too far apart. I agree that the money was released by the pentagon and could have been transferred. My point is that Trump was right to withhold it until Zelensky and his new regime was up and running, and had critical reforms in-place, which happened during the summer. This article is detailed and long, so skip to the bottom and "Conclusions" first:

Blah, blah, blah...

The Pentagon had already certified the money would get to where it was supposed to.

THe ONLY reason why Trump held up the money was to get Ukraine to smear Biden.

 

[DBA]

The Ukranians didn't know money was being withheld because they weren't doing investigations. That is a fact. You guys just don't like it because it doesn't fit the narrative you are trying to sell.

Ukraine Knew of Aid Freeze in July, Says Ex-Top Official in Kyiv

Ukraine’s government learned of the military aid freeze during the Trump administration’s pressure campaign — and tried to keep that knowledge from going public, an ex-deputy foreign minister said.

KYIV, Ukraine — As deputy foreign minister, it was Olena Zerkal’s job to read incoming diplomatic cables from embassies around the world. One from Washington caught her eye back in July, she recalled: It said the Trump administration had frozen military aid for Ukraine.

“We had this information,” Ms. Zerkal said in an interview. “It was definitely mentioned there were some issues.”

The timing of when Ukraine knew of the hold on the military aid is a critical question in the impeachment hearings in Congress. Democrats are trying to build a case that President Trump pressured President Volodymyr Zelensky by withholding the aid and a White House meeting — at the same time he was pressing for a public announcement that Ukraine would investigate his political rivals.

In the interview, Ms. Zerkal, who said she resigned from her post last week to protest her government’s back channel diplomacy with both the Trump administration last summer and Russia this fall, provided an insider’s account of when senior officials in Kyiv learned of the freeze, and how they tried to keep the information from becoming public.

Her account is backed by Laura K. Cooper, the American deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia, Ukraine and Eurasia, who said in Congressional testimony during the impeachment inquiry that Ukrainian diplomats knew about the aid freeze at least by July 25, when they began to question United States officials about it.


YOu can all stop lying now. Trump held up aid, shook them down for investigations.

LOL...I guess you continue to believe hearsay and second hand information and ignore Zelinsky himself. I might also add, no investigatiions were started so they must not have been pressured too much.

You are a good little lemming.

Zelensky knew about the military money being withheld in July... and he's still waiting for ALL of it... about 14% of money STILL hasn't been sent, about 30 million.

And OF COURSE Zelensky would not go against Swamp critter Trump, hIs Country desperately needs all the money....

We've got phone calls from the Ukraine diplomats calling our diplomats on the aid money asking about why it has not been released and when will it be released...in late July 2019, that's simply a fact!

AND YES the Ukraine reopened an investigation in to Burisma/Biden and MADE the announcement in public, only not on a CNN interview as initially planned before the whistleblower...

we have several Russian sympathizer trolls who post here on the site that started threads on this announcement....

Inside Ukraine’s ‘Audit’ of Hunter Biden Company Investigation

Ukrainian prosecutors are reviewing their investigation into Burisma, the energy company where Hunter Biden worked

The Democrats launched their investigation at the end of Sept. The Ukrainians starting investigations into Burisma and possibly the interference into our 2016 election, which Democrats supposedly cared so much about, in early Oct. Trump released aid on Sept. 11th. Not sure how that implies that aid was contigent upon investigations. Why would they start the investigatiions after receiving the aid? That makes no sense Regardless, the investigations should be taking place anyway. Witholding aid is perfectly normal and legit for a variety of reasons, including asking another country to investigate corruption that may affect the US. The fact that one of the persons that could be implicated in the corruption may be a political opponent doesn't preclude that person from investigation. What is over the top ironic here is that Democrats are accusing Trump of exactly, and to a much lesser extent, what Biden and Obama did with the Ukraine. Biden said they were going to withold the money until we got what we wanted. It may have been a legitimate ask to fire Shoken, but, just like Trump, Biden would stand to benefit as well.

 

[JoeB131]

The Democrats launched their investigation at the end of Sept. The Ukrainians starting investigations into Burisma and possibly the interference into our 2016 election, which Democrats supposedly cared so much about, in early Oct. Trump released aid on Sept. 11th. Not sure how that implies that aid was contigent upon investigations.

This is where you are confused.

Here's the timeline

July- Trump withholds the aid.
July 25 - Trump calls Zelensky and tries to shake him down
August- the Whistleblower reports this crime.
September- Trump realizes he's been caught, and releases the aid.

December- Trump gets impeached....

 

[kyzr]

1. 2014 was when the heavy fighting was happening in east Ukraine, and when the Ukraine really needed the "lethal aid". There was no excuse for sending blankets instead of Javelin anti-tank weapons. How many of the 14,000 dead Ukes could have been averted if they had proper weapons? Dr. Hill admitted she fucked it up and changed her mind.

Nothing to do with Trump trying to shake them down to do a sham investigation- NEXT.

2. Trump doesn't need to justify anything to congress.

That's the absolute scariest thing about you Trump Cultists. Imagine your reaction if Obama took that attitude.

3. I'm not a fan of the clumsy "announce the investigation and we'll release the money" ploy. Trump had every legitimate right to require an investigation of Burisma before releasing the money. Trump fucked up by saying "investigate the Bidens". That was just an unforced error. I don't believe that's an impeachable error, but its an error. Trump just proved he's not as smart as he thinks he is. Lesson learned, he is NOT the fucking CEO of the Federal government.

No, that's a crime... a pretty clear one. Bursima had nothing to do with the aid, and there was no compelling reason to investigate Bursima. This was merely trying to get the Ukraine to smear his enemies.

If there was a crime, Trump has a whole Justice Department to investigate. The problem being, of course, is they ALREADY TOLD HIM there was nothing to these Conspiracy Theories....

4. I still call bullshit on smearing Joe Biden. A Ukrainian investigation can't invent wrongdoing for Joe Biden if he's not involved with Burisma. Either Joe Biden got some of that Burisma/Soros cash via QPQ, or he didn't.

Again, how would the Ukraine know where that money went after it was paid to Boies Schiller Flexner? It would seem that these thing would be easily investigated on our side. Of course, if Trump and Barr opened such an investigation, it would be as much of a crime than when Nixon used the FBI and IRS to spy on his opponents.

1. How do you know Trump wanted a "sham" investigation? My point was that in 2014 they desperately needed military aid, and Obama sent "blankets", and in 2019 its a sniper war. So Dr. Hill's testimony that the delay in funding affected US national security is total bullshit after not helping Ukraine in 2014.

2. When Obama got out of his lane the GOP took him to court, when Trump gets outside of his lane he gets impeached.

3. What crime are you accusing Trump of? The compelling reason to investigate Burisma is that in Ukraine oligarchs are very powerful and they play rough. All of Schiffs witnesses said that Burisma is still corrupt. If the Bidens are clean what are you worried about? Trump got investigated for 3-years, so stop whining.

4. We seem to agree that if Barr finds wrongdoing regarding Burisma, fine, if he finds no wrongdoing, fine.

 

[JoeB131]

Regardless, the investigations should be taking place anyway. Witholding aid is perfectly normal and legit for a variety of reasons, including asking another country to investigate corruption that may affect the US.

If the investigation was legit, Trump wouldn't have tried to do it outside of normal diplomatic and legal channels...

 

[JoeB131]

1. How do you know Trump wanted a "sham" investigation?

Because everyone already told him there was nothing to it.

My point was that in 2014 they desperately needed military aid, and Obama sent "blankets", and in 2019 its a sniper war. So Dr. Hill's testimony that the delay in funding affected US national security is total bullshit.

In 2014, it wasn't justified... by 2019, it was.

2. When Obama got out of his lane the GOP took him to court, when Trump gets outside of his lane he gets impeached.

Obama didn't break any laws...

3. What crime are you accusing Trump of?

Obstruction of Justice
Abuse of Power
Bribery
Extortion
Soliciting aid from a foreign power in an Election

We've been over this.

4. We seem to agree that if Barr finds wrongdoing regarding Burisma, fine, if he finds no wrongdoing, fine.

I wouldn't trust anything Barr says at this point. He's thoroughly corrupt.

 

[kyzr]

I don't think our arguments are too far apart. I agree that the money was released by the pentagon and could have been transferred. My point is that Trump was right to withhold it until Zelensky and his new regime was up and running, and had critical reforms in-place, which happened during the summer. This article is detailed and long, so skip to the bottom and "Conclusions" first:

Blah, blah, blah...

The Pentagon had already certified the money would get to where it was supposed to.

The ONLY reason why Trump held up the money was to get Ukraine to smear Biden.

Trump held up the money until Z made an "announcement of an investigation". No smear required.
Then Trump released the money, and Z never made an announcement. Z probably didn't know the money was being held up?!
I'm saying that Trump had a winning hand and misplayed it badly.
He had many many good reasons to withhold the money, and get an investigation, but he couldn't resist his instincts to push the deal himself.

 

[kyzr]

1. How do you know Trump wanted a "sham" investigation?

Because everyone already told him there was nothing to it.

My point was that in 2014 they desperately needed military aid, and Obama sent "blankets", and in 2019 its a sniper war. So Dr. Hill's testimony that the delay in funding affected US national security is total bullshit.

In 2014, it wasn't justified... by 2019, it was.

2. When Obama got out of his lane the GOP took him to court, when Trump gets outside of his lane he gets impeached.

Obama didn't break any laws...

3. What crime are you accusing Trump of?

Obstruction of Justice
Abuse of Power
Bribery
Extortion
Soliciting aid from a foreign power in an Election

We've been over this.

4. We seem to agree that if Barr finds wrongdoing regarding Burisma, fine, if he finds no wrongdoing, fine.

I wouldn't trust anything Barr says at this point. He's thoroughly corrupt.

1. Who is "everybody"? Did "everybody" know how much Hunter Biden was getting? Did "everybody" know that the Soros Organization was NOT to be investigated?

2. We disagree about 2014. How wasn't it "justified" in 2014 when there was major fighting, and it is justified in 2019 with no major fighting?

3. Trump didn't break any laws either. (see #4 below)

4. Obstruction how? Nancy said by taking their House subpoenas to court. That's insane.
Abuse of power: Article 2 says no
Bribery: never happened
Extortion: never happened
Soliciting aid from a foreign power in an election: What Law says that? The law that let Hillary hire Russians to write the Steele Dossier? Make the case that investigating Burisma for corruption, as all witnesses testified to, is "soliciting aid from a foreign power in an election". Joe Biden is NOT connected to Burisma, unless there is a money trail.

5. Barr is one of the finest AGs ever. He is NOT Trump's "wingman" like Holder was for Obama. You have no evidence that Barr is corrupt, you just don't like the legal answers.

 

[DBA]

And you dont believe the person who had first had knowledge of the siituation and as supposedly a victim of the Quid Pro Quo. The left-wing and those that are corrupt in our intelligence agencies LOVE people liike you.

I honestly believe the guy doesn't want to get emeshed in our politics or admit that he was about to get on his knees for Trump.

I also find it amusing that you apparently think that our intelligence agencies are corrupt, but Trump is honest.

I find it amusing that you don't think our intelligence communities are corrupt given the litany of evidence to the contrary. At the very least, they are very partisan in key positiions, which is a big no no.

 

[DBA]

The Democrats launched their investigation at the end of Sept. The Ukrainians starting investigations into Burisma and possibly the interference into our 2016 election, which Democrats supposedly cared so much about, in early Oct. Trump released aid on Sept. 11th. Not sure how that implies that aid was contigent upon investigations.

This is where you are confused.

Here's the timeline

July- Trump withholds the aid.
July 25 - Trump calls Zelensky and tries to shake him down
August- the Whistleblower reports this crime.
September- Trump realizes he's been caught, and releases the aid.

December- Trump gets impeached....

You are the one that is confused. You are reading a lot into the phone call for starters. I disagree that that was "a shake down". Also, if they were being bribed, why didn't they start the investigations right after the phone call and they did they start the investigations AFTER receiving the aid. That makes no sense.