268 Pages of Evasion and how Clinton and Obama laundered Russian Propaganda through The FBI and DOJ
Here are just 6 early in the interview.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, you also strike me as being smart enough
not to make yourself a fact witness if you didn't have to. So why
take the information? Chris Steele already had a relationship
with the Bureau. Why not just connect Glenn Simpson with the
Bureau? Why put yourself in the middle of that?
Mr. Ohr. My recollection is that I tried to get Glenn
Simpson to speak with the Bureau, but I don't recall the exact
conversation. So he was willing to meet with me and give me some
information. So I took the information and passed it to the FBI.
Mr. Gowdy. Who at the FBI did you pass it on to?
Mr. Ohr. Well, at that point I had -- I believe I met with
Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, and some people from the
Department's -- Justice Department's Criminal Division, and I gave
them the information that I had received.
Mr. Gowdy. Was either Peter Strzok or Lisa Page, were they
working on a Russian oligarch fraud investigation in addition to
the Trump campaign, or was it just the Trump campaign
investigation that you remember them working on at the time?
Mr. Ohr. I think my recollection is that they were looking
at different parts, not just one part. I don't remember the exact
details, but --
Mr. Gowdy. Can you see how it might be troubling? You just
called the names of two people, neither of whom I think are with
the Bureau, one who was mentioned unfavorably in an IG report,
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both of whom had, at least from my standpoint, an unprecedented
amount of animus or bias towards one of the candidates, and you
are getting information from someone hired by the DNC and
funneling it to the lead agent on the Russia investigation. Can
you possibly see how that might be troubling to people?
Mr. Ohr. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. And what would your response to that
troublement be?
Mr. Ohr. At the time, they were the people who could use,
you know, or look at the information. They were the ones that I
was told to pass it to. They also told me that they would arrange
for me to be in contact with a line agent, a regular agent, and
that in the future, my contacts would be with that agent rather
than with higher officials at the FBI.
Mr. Gowdy. Who was handling Chris Steele, who at the Bureau?
Mr. Ohr. I don't know who was officially his handler. I
know one of the people he was talking with who may have been his
handler was Special Agent Mike Gaeta.
Mr. Gowdy. So why not tell Steele and Simpson to go talk to
the Bureau directly?
Mr. Ohr. I believe Steele was talking to the Bureau
directly. My recollection is that at least initially -- well, no.
Let me cancel that.
I -- I don't think -- I think Glenn Simpson was willing to
talk with me. I'm not sure that -- my recollection is I'm not
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sure he was willing to talk with the FBI, although that was
where obviously it would be better to --
Mr. Gowdy. Why not? Why talk to a prosecutor who does not
investigate crime? Were you assigned to the Russia investigation?
Mr. Ohr. I was not.
Mr. Gowdy. Did you have any connection with the Russia
investigation at all?
Mr. Ohr. Aside from passing this information, no.
Mr. Gowdy. So why would Glenn Simpson go through you and not
go directly to the Bureau?
Mr. Ohr. I don't know what was in his head. I know he was
willing to talk --
Mr. Gowdy. I'm sure you asked him.
Mr. Ohr. I think I tried to get him to talk with the FBI,
but I don't recall the exact conversation.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, Mr. Ohr, a couple of people around the
table have worked for the Department at various points. You
really try hard, as an attorney, not to involve yourself in chains
or facts that could warrant you being pretty much exactly where
you are today, which is a fact witness. Surely this is not the
first time you thought about that?
Mr. Ohr. That's right.
Mr. Gowdy. So why allow yourself to be a conduit?
Mr. Ohr. I thought the -- I wanted to get the information,
whatever information they had. I wanted to get it to the FBI, and
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I wanted to try to create the situation for people like Glenn
Simpson to talk to the FBI.
Mr. Gowdy. Do you believe, as I do, that the FBI is the
world's premier law enforcement agency?
Mr. Ohr. If I say yes, I might make people at the DEA very
unhappy, but yes, I am very -- I have a great admiration for the
FBI.
Mr. Gowdy. I don't think it's going to make them unhappy.
They don't have as much jurisdiction as the Bureau has. The
Bureau has broad jurisdiction. I mean, DEA can't look at Title 18
cases, can they?
Mr. Ohr. That's right, except for money laundering, I
believe, yes.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. So you've got what, with your caveat
noted, you don't want to offend anyone else, you got the world's
premier law enforcement agency investigating a fact pattern.
Chris Steele already has a handler, already is in contact with the
FBI; and you allow the person hired by the DNC to dig up dirt on a
Presidential candidate to talk to you directly and use you as a
conduit. We're just trying to figure out why you let that happen?
Mr. Ohr. I took the information. I thought the information
might be important, and I wanted to get it to the FBI. It seemed
the only way to do it.
Mr. Gowdy. What information would Glenn Simpson have that
the Bureau couldn't get or already have?
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Mr. Ohr. I don't know exactly what the FBI had access to,
and I know Glenn Simpson was also gathering information. So more
information is better. The FBI is in a position to decide whether
the information is useful or credible. My job, as I saw it, was
just to get the information over there and let them figure it out.
Mr. Gowdy. So when Glenn Simpson gave you information, what
information did he give you?
Mr. Ohr. I don't recall the exact facts he gave me in
August. I believe I made some notes at the time, and I believe it
had to do with possible intermediaries between the Russian
Government and the Trump campaign.
Mr. Gowdy. Such as?
Mr. Ohr. I don't recall the exact names.
Mr. Gowdy. That's a serious allegation, Mr. Ohr.
Mr. Ohr. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. To allege that a hostile foreign government is in
cahoots with members of a campaign is a pretty serious allegation.
Mr. Ohr. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. And you don't remember who it was?
Mr. Ohr. There were many names mentioned over a period of
time.
Mr. Gowdy. Tell me the ones you remember.
Mr. Ohr. I don't know if it came up in the conversation with
Glenn Simpson, but certainly one of them was Sergei Millian.
Mr. Gowdy. How about on the Trump campaign side?
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Mr. Ohr. Again, I don't recall if this was a name that Glenn
Simpson mentioned, but I remember the name Michael Cohen coming
up.
Mr. Gowdy. Cohen? Okay. Who else?
Mr. Ohr. I remember -- and, again, I don't think -- I don't
remember if -- I think this name came from Chris Steele
originally, was Carter Page. And the name Paul Manafort was also
mentioned, and I think that came from Chris Steele originally.
Mr. Gowdy. And what precisely, as best you can recall, was
the nature of this collaboration/conspiracy/coordination?
Mr. Ohr. That there were communications back and forth
between the Russian Government and the Trump campaign.
Mr. Gowdy. Is there anything inherently criminal about that?
Mr. Ohr. If the Russian Government was attempting to
influence the Trump campaign in some way, I would think that would
be a national security threat.
Mr. Gowdy. What would that some way be?
Mr. Ohr. Espousing certain positions, or if they had some
kind of control or influence over members of the campaign that
could affect U.S. policy in a way that would be favorable to
Russia or Russian interests.
Mr. Gowdy. And what did Mr. Simpson relay to you about that?
What control or dominion or --
Mr. Ohr. I think Mr. Simpson was -- what Glenn Simpson was
giving me was more the means by which this communication was
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being -- what he thought how the communication was happening. I
don't think he was talking as much about what exactly they
were -- you know, what policies or whatever they were talking
about.
Mr. Gowdy. You've been a prosecutor for how long?
Mr. Ohr. I began as a prosecutor in 1991.
Mr. Gowdy. So from 2018 to 1991, you have essentially asked
questions for a living?
Mr. Ohr. Uh-huh. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. What questions did you ask Glenn Simpson about
the origin of his information? And I'm still -- maybe it's just
me. I'm still struggling to figure out -- now, if it was a
conspiracy to access the DNC server, I'm interested. If it's a
conspiracy to access John Podesta's email, I'm interested. I'm
actually interested if it's a conspiracy to disseminate what was
taken even if they didn't take it.
But I doubt he met with a high-ranking DOJ official to say,
someone in the Russian Government knows someone in the Trump
campaign?
