Zone1 Remember the 2 instances in the Bible where the gay community surrounded the homes and threatened the occupants?

[tyroneweaver]

Lots family is the first that comes to mind but the 2nd was the Levite and his concubine in the book of Judges
In both instances the gay community threaten the occupants if they didn't get what they wanted

moral of the story

things haven't changed much in 3000 years

 

[JoeB131]

Lots family is the first that comes to mind but the 2nd was the Levite and his concubine in the book of Judges
In both instances the gay community threaten the occupants if they didn't get what they wanted

moral of the story

things haven't changed much in 3000 years

Actually, the interpretation I would take of those stories is that there were no Good Guys.

Let's start with Genesis 19.

God sends two angels to Sodom to warn Lot to get out of town. The mob gathers in front of the house and demands Lot send the strangers out. Lot, the supposedly "righteous" man whom God just had to save personally, offers to turn over his two virgin daughters to the mob to be gang rape. They refuse because they were like, totally gay. (Or maybe they knew those girls weren't virgins because he tried to convince his sons-in-law to leave later in the story.

Well, Sodom blows up, Mrs. Lot gets turned into a condiment, and that's usually where your Sunday School ends the story. They usually don't tell you the later part of the story where Lot's daughters get him blind drunk and have sex with him, giving birth to the Ammonites and Moabites.

Judges 19 is actually a little worse. Members of the Tribe of Benjamin demand that they give over the Levite to them, but they give them his concubine instead for gang rape (the parallels in the story are very interesting, to the point of plagiarism). The crowd proceeds to rape the concubine to death.

The Levite, who let's not forget, is the Tribe that was the priests of Israel, chops up his concubine into 12 pieces and sends them off to the other tribes of Israel, and then demands revenge against the Tribe of Benjamin, which is almost completely wiped out. Feeling remorse, they help the Benjaminites kidnap women to replenish their tribe.

So... um... in neither one of these stories do the heterosexuals come off looking that laudable.

 

[ding]

Actually, the interpretation I would take of those stories is that there were no Good Guys.

Let's start with Genesis 19.

God sends two angels to Sodom to warn Lot to get out of town. The mob gathers in front of the house and demands Lot send the strangers out. Lot, the supposedly "righteous" man whom God just had to save personally, offers to turn over his two virgin daughters to the mob to be gang rape. They refuse because they were like, totally gay. (Or maybe they knew those girls weren't virgins because he tried to convince his sons-in-law to leave later in the story.

Well, Sodom blows up, Mrs. Lot gets turned into a condiment, and that's usually where your Sunday School ends the story. They usually don't tell you the later part of the story where Lot's daughters get him blind drunk and have sex with him, giving birth to the Ammonites and Moabites.

Judges 19 is actually a little worse. Members of the Tribe of Benjamin demand that they give over the Levite to them, but they give them his concubine instead for gang rape (the parallels in the story are very interesting, to the point of plagiarism). The crowd proceeds to rape the concubine to death.

The Levite, who let's not forget, is the Tribe that was the priests of Israel, chops up his concubine into 12 pieces and sends them off to the other tribes of Israel, and then demands revenge against the Tribe of Benjamin, which is almost completely wiped out. Feeling remorse, they help the Benjaminites kidnap women to replenish their tribe.

So... um... in neither one of these stories do the heterosexuals come off looking that laudable.

You shouldn’t let embellishments get in the way of deciphering the intent of the author’s descriptive portrayal of reality.

 

[JoeB131]

You shouldn’t let embellishments get in the way of deciphering the intent of the author’s descriptive portrayal of reality.

I'm sorry, I don't consider a book with a talking snake and giants in it to be "reality".

Now, there is a contextual issue here with these passages.

The entire theme of the Book of Judges was that because Israel had no King, everyone did what was right in their own mind, which is why so many of these stories are so horrible.

The problem was that these stories were not put to paper until centuries after the incidents happened, if at they happened at all. So they are interposing their Iron Age values on Bronze Age stories.

 

[ding]

I'm sorry, I don't consider a book with a talking snake and giants in it to be "reality".

Now, there is a contextual issue here with these passages.

The entire theme of the Book of Judges was that because Israel had no King, everyone did what was right in their own mind, which is why so many of these stories are so horrible.

The problem was that these stories were not put to paper until centuries after the incidents happened, if at they happened at all. So they are interposing their Iron Age values on Bronze Age stories.

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

 

[JoeB131]

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

Your concession is duly noted.

 

[ding]

Your concession is duly noted.

I couldn’t be happier for you to see it that way. I don’t believe you can help yourself.

 

[JoeB131]

I couldn’t be happier for you to see it that way. I don’t believe you can help yourself.

12 years of Catholic School. I couldn't run away from the insanity quickly enough.

If more people really read the bible, we'd have more atheists.

 

[ding]

12 years of Catholic School. I couldn't run away from the insanity quickly enough.

If more people really read the bible, we'd have more atheists.

If they read it like you do, sure.

 

[Quantrill]

Lots family is the first that comes to mind but the 2nd was the Levite and his concubine in the book of Judges
In both instances the gay community threaten the occupants if they didn't get what they wanted

moral of the story

things haven't changed much in 3000 years

That is true, fallen mankind always goes down the same path. Eventually resulting in God's judgement.

See (Rom. 1:21-27).

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[Quantrill]

Actually, the interpretation I would take of those stories is that there were no Good Guys.

Let's start with Genesis 19.

God sends two angels to Sodom to warn Lot to get out of town. The mob gathers in front of the house and demands Lot send the strangers out. Lot, the supposedly "righteous" man whom God just had to save personally, offers to turn over his two virgin daughters to the mob to be gang rape. They refuse because they were like, totally gay. (Or maybe they knew those girls weren't virgins because he tried to convince his sons-in-law to leave later in the story.

Well, Sodom blows up, Mrs. Lot gets turned into a condiment, and that's usually where your Sunday School ends the story. They usually don't tell you the later part of the story where Lot's daughters get him blind drunk and have sex with him, giving birth to the Ammonites and Moabites.

Judges 19 is actually a little worse. Members of the Tribe of Benjamin demand that they give over the Levite to them, but they give them his concubine instead for gang rape (the parallels in the story are very interesting, to the point of plagiarism). The crowd proceeds to rape the concubine to death.

The Levite, who let's not forget, is the Tribe that was the priests of Israel, chops up his concubine into 12 pieces and sends them off to the other tribes of Israel, and then demands revenge against the Tribe of Benjamin, which is almost completely wiped out. Feeling remorse, they help the Benjaminites kidnap women to replenish their tribe.

So... um... in neither one of these stories do the heterosexuals come off looking that laudable.

Yes Lot was the righteous man. (2 Peter 2:7-8) "And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)"

But, nothing good is ever said of Lot in that which he did. He chose to live in the world and amongst the wicked. And he would pay a price for it. But not the same price the wicked and unrighteous paid.

Concerning Lot's two virgin daughters, they were virgins. But their husbands were homosexuals as was Sodom. They were not believers in God as Lot was. So that when Lot tried to persuade them to flee the city, they laughed. (Gen. 19:14) And then the angels told Lot to take his wife and two daughters and flee. And Lot still argued with the angels about leaving. And amazingly they said to him, "Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. "

And Lot then left with his two daughters and wife, yet the wife looked back after being told don't do it. (Gen. 19:17) (Gen. 19:26) Then the daughters later had sex with their drunken father. And of them were born Moab and Ammon who would later be enemies of Israel.

But concerning Lot, we are told, (Gen. 19:16) "the LORD being merciful unto him".

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[Quantrill]

Concerning the actions of Israel in (Judges 19) see (Judges 2:10-13) "And also that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.

"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:

"And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

"And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth."

A nation that knew God and turned away from God. Sounds somewhat familiar.

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[Mr Natural]

If they read it like you do, sure.

You mean like not questioning anything just accepting it all to be factual?

 

[ding]

You mean like not questioning anything just accepting it all to be factual?

No. I mean like imbeciles confirming their own bias.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes Lot was the righteous man. (2 Peter 2:7-8) "And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)"

But, nothing good is ever said of Lot in that which he did. He chose to live in the world and amongst the wicked. And he would pay a price for it. But not the same price the wicked and unrighteous paid.

So let's look at that.

The guy who got drunk and banged both his daughters was righteous, but, um, what about the women who didn't surround the house? Weren't they innocent? What about the children of Sodom? Did they all deserve to be hit with fire and brimstone?

Concerning Lot's two virgin daughters, they were virgins. But their husbands were homosexuals as was Sodom. They were not believers in God as Lot was. So that when Lot tried to persuade them to flee the city, they laughed. (Gen. 19:14) And then the angels told Lot to take his wife and two daughters and flee. And Lot still argued with the angels about leaving. And amazingly they said to him, "Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. "

Um, you skipped over the part where he got drunk and had sex with his daughters. How drunk do you have to get to have sex with your daughter- TWICE! Of course, it was a different time, I suppose. Abraham and Sarah were half-siblings.

Concerning the actions of Israel in (Judges 19) see (Judges 2:10-13) "And also that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.

"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:

"And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

"And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth."

A nation that knew God and turned away from God. Sounds somewhat familiar.

The problem with the Book of Judges is that the Levite did serve God, and he instigated a slaughter of a whole tribe for the death of a concubine that he caused by throwing her to the mob.

You have other wonderful characters in the Book of Judges, like Samson, who murdered thousands of people, or Jephthah, who offered up his daughter as a burnt offering because he made a foolish oath to win a battle.

The biggest problem with the Old Testament is that it really doesn't paint God in a very good light, which is why most Christian Churches either ignore it or try to "Disneyfy" the stories in it.

 

[Quantrill]

So let's look at that.

The guy who got drunk and banged both his daughters was righteous, but, um, what about the women who didn't surround the house? Weren't they innocent? What about the children of Sodom? Did they all deserve to be hit with fire and brimstone?


Um, you skipped over the part where he got drunk and had sex with his daughters. How drunk do you have to get to have sex with your daughter- TWICE! Of course, it was a different time, I suppose. Abraham and Sarah were half-siblings.



The problem with the Book of Judges is that the Levite did serve God, and he instigated a slaughter of a whole tribe for the death of a concubine that he caused by throwing her to the mob.

You have other wonderful characters in the Book of Judges, like Samson, who murdered thousands of people, or Jephthah, who offered up his daughter as a burnt offering because he made a foolish oath to win a battle.

The biggest problem with the Old Testament is that it really doesn't paint God in a very good light, which is why most Christian Churches either ignore it or try to "Disneyfy" the stories in it.

Of course they deserved it. The whole of Sodom was wicked.

Um, No I didn't skip over the virgin daughters having sex with drunken Lott. Read again, and try to pay attention. Post #(11), next to last paragraph.

There is no problem with the Book of (Judges). As I said, Israel is a people who turned away from her God to worship the pagan gods. Thus the ungodly and wicked nature that characterized that generation of Israelites.

Oh yes, there are lots of wonderful characters in the book of (Judges). Samson was one who was a man of God. The people he killed were not people of God. A wonderful character. Concerning Japheth, it is not clear that he killed his daughter, but he may have. Making a oath to God is serious.

There is no problem with the Old Testament. It is the Word of God and true. No need to water it down.

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[Zincwarrior]

Wasn't this where one gave his daughter to thf mob instead to be gang raped? Yea, its about the Gayz.

 

[JoeB131]

Of course they deserved it. The whole of Sodom was wicked.

Um, No I didn't skip over the virgin daughters having sex with drunken Lott. Read again, and try to pay attention. Post #(11), next to last paragraph.

Okay, but you skipped over "righteous" Lot getting drunk and having sex with both of his daughters. how is he "righteous"? (Now, obviously, this was a slam on the Ammonites and Moabites, kind of like when a liberal mocks a MAGA supporter for being "inbred".)

There is no problem with the Book of (Judges). As I said, Israel is a people who turned away from her God to worship the pagan gods. Thus the ungodly and wicked nature that characterized that generation of Israelites.

Except Jephthah didn't worship a foreign god. He sacrificed his daughter to Yahweh. (I suspect that this story is to try to explain away a tradition celebrating a human sacrifice even though by that time, the Hebrews had given up human sacrifice.)

Oh yes, there are lots of wonderful characters in the book of (Judges). Samson was one who was a man of God. The people he killed were not people of God. A wonderful character. Concerning Japheth, it is not clear that he killed his daughter, but he may have. Making a oath to God is serious.

Um, no, guy, there's no doubt Jephthah killed his daughter. Zero. Zilch. None. Up until recent times, religious scholars agreed he had. It's only in recent times that Fundamentalists have tried to "Disney" the story to say she consecrated herself to God or some such nonsense.

As for Samson, he had the same morality as Osama Bin Laden, except he was driven by his libido. Half the stuff he did was because he wanted to get laid.

There is no problem with the Old Testament. It is the Word of God and true. No need to water it down.

Yet Churches do that every day. I went to Catholic School for 12 years. Never heard about Elisha and the bears. Or Jephthah. or Lot having sex with his daughters.

The thing about the Old Testament is that it was written by Iron Age People who saw "God" as any force of nature they did not fully understand. Plague? Must have upset God. Famine? Must have upset God. Locust? God must have been really upset with you about something.

The New Testament was written by people influenced by Greek and Zoroastrian philosophy, which is why you see things like Satan being transformed into an opposing character (he wasn't in the OT), talk of an afterlife for the faithful, etc.

 

[Zebra]

Actually, the interpretation I would take of those stories is that there were no Good Guys.

Let's start with Genesis 19.

God sends two angels to Sodom to warn Lot to get out of town. The mob gathers in front of the house and demands Lot send the strangers out. Lot, the supposedly "righteous" man whom God just had to save personally, offers to turn over his two virgin daughters to the mob to be gang rape. They refuse because they were like, totally gay. (Or maybe they knew those girls weren't virgins because he tried to convince his sons-in-law to leave later in the story.

Well, Sodom blows up, Mrs. Lot gets turned into a condiment, and that's usually where your Sunday School ends the story. They usually don't tell you the later part of the story where Lot's daughters get him blind drunk and have sex with him, giving birth to the Ammonites and Moabites.

Judges 19 is actually a little worse. Members of the Tribe of Benjamin demand that they give over the Levite to them, but they give them his concubine instead for gang rape (the parallels in the story are very interesting, to the point of plagiarism). The crowd proceeds to rape the concubine to death.

The Levite, who let's not forget, is the Tribe that was the priests of Israel, chops up his concubine into 12 pieces and sends them off to the other tribes of Israel, and then demands revenge against the Tribe of Benjamin, which is almost completely wiped out. Feeling remorse, they help the Benjaminites kidnap women to replenish their tribe.

So... um... in neither one of these stories do the heterosexuals come off looking that laudable.

terrible

 

[Quantrill]

Okay, but you skipped over "righteous" Lot getting drunk and having sex with both of his daughters. how is he "righteous"? (Now, obviously, this was a slam on the Ammonites and Moabites, kind of like when a liberal mocks a MAGA supporter for being "inbred".)



Except Jephthah didn't worship a foreign god. He sacrificed his daughter to Yahweh. (I suspect that this story is to try to explain away a tradition celebrating a human sacrifice even though by that time, the Hebrews had given up human sacrifice.)




Um, no, guy, there's no doubt Jephthah killed his daughter. Zero. Zilch. None. Up until recent times, religious scholars agreed he had. It's only in recent times that Fundamentalists have tried to "Disney" the story to say she consecrated herself to God or some such nonsense.

As for Samson, he had the same morality as Osama Bin Laden, except he was driven by his libido. Half the stuff he did was because he wanted to get laid.



Yet Churches do that every day. I went to Catholic School for 12 years. Never heard about Elisha and the bears. Or Jephthah. or Lot having sex with his daughters.

The thing about the Old Testament is that it was written by Iron Age People who saw "God" as any force of nature they did not fully understand. Plague? Must have upset God. Famine? Must have upset God. Locust? God must have been really upset with you about something.

The New Testament was written by people influenced by Greek and Zoroastrian philosophy, which is why you see things like Satan being transformed into an opposing character (he wasn't in the OT), talk of an afterlife for the faithful, etc.

Again, I did not skip over Lot being drunk and his daughters having sex with him. See again post #(11), second to last paragraph.

Lot was/is righteous because of his faith, because he is declared righteous by God.

The nature of the children of Israel at that time was to always turn away from God and serve other gods. Only when their enemies overcame them and put them under sever servitude would they turn back to God. But only till they were delivered, then they would again turn away from God. And Jephthah was a bastard, the son of a harlot. He was cast out of Israel. (Judges 11:1-2) How much he knew about the Laws of God is debatable. But again, it is quite possible that he did kill his daughter to fulfill his vow. But, God was not requiring it of him.

Concerning Israel and 'human sacrifice' it may have been against the Law for Israel, but God certainly had a Human Sacrifice instore. Jesus Christ.

Yes, Samson was either in the bars or whore houses. But, Samson was a child of God. Read (Judges 13). He was a promise from God.

Well, just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it wasn't in the Bible.

No, both Old and New Testament were written by men inspired by the Spirit of God to write. Written by men but the Word of God.

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