Religion: The Driving Force Behind Human Civilization

[Moonglow]

History is full of uncounted massacres by armies carrying a religious banner, though most such episodes were in ancient times with much less efficient killing technology and microscopically smaller populations. The number of religious exterminations of entire villages throughout history is innumerable, though most had body counts only in the hundreds or thousands. Alexander the Great is estimated to have executed a million. 11th century Crusades killed half a million Jews and Muslims. Genghis Khan's massacres of entire populations of cities probably totaled a million. The Aztecs once slaughtered 100,000 prisoners over four days. An unknown number, probably in the millions, died in the Devil's Wind action in Colonial India. Up to four million Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims died in post-Colonial India. The Ottoman Empire massacred two million Armenians over the years. Franco's Spanish Civil War killed a hundred thousand. A million have died in Rwanda, half a million in Darfur. And Christian vs. Muslim violence has obviously dominated our headlines for a decade, totaling somewhere in seven figures.

So who has been the worst throughout history: atheist regimes or religious regimes? Obviously the big numbers come from the 20th century superpowers (China, Russia, Germany) so the answer depends on how you classify those. And this is where the meat of these debates is usually found, splitting hairs on which regime is atheist, which is merely secular, which is non-Christian and thus fair game to be called atheist. Hitchens points out that Stalin's government had all the trappings of religion, including Orwell's totalitarian theocracy, and thus it's merely a play on words to say that it was not religious. Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist monk who grew up to execute Buddhist monks, along with anyone else he could lay his hands on. Whole books have been written on the occult underpinnings of Nazi Germany, the symbology of the Norse gods, to say nothing of the claims that Hitler was a Christian, Hitler was a Jew, and his own writings expressing the kinship he felt with the Muslims. A favorite counterpoint raised by Christian debaters is that these despots practiced Social Darwinism and were thus atheists by definition. In summary, the winner of these debates is the one who can convince the other that the big 20th century genocidal maniacs were motivated either by religion or by a desire to destroy religion. The entire debate is the logical fallacy of the excluded middle.

Who Kills More, Religion or Atheism?

 

[Hollie]

More people were killed by communist regimes. Atheist ones.

Obviously, you never took the time to compare the numbers.

IN fact, I have. Perhaps you should use your Internet search engine and explore the issue.

You might want to consider doing exactly that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7040768-post267.html

 

[koshergrl]

in my opinion, the world and humanity would be far better of if there were no religions at all.

Why would we want to de-evolve?

The lesser mammals and other animals on our planet all live for the moment, with little thought (creative or otherwise) to their existance beyond just procreation.

When mankind began to imagine a deity or power greater than themselves, they also began the exploration of the mind and philosophy. It moved us from living in the caves to living among the clouds.

Religion has its problems, but that is no more serious than normal greed for what other people have.

In fact, it is the religious communities of the world who have stood up (to the point of death) to oppressive/tyrannical/abusive practices and regimes, to the betterment of all mankind.

It was a religious organization who advised Jefferson that the US should observe a separation of church and state.

It was Christian women who ultimately put an end to the practice of incarcerating entire families (rather than just the criminal).

It was Christians who, world wide, opposed SLAVERY and brought about its downfall.

The list goes on and on and on.

 

[daws101]

in my opinion, the world and humanity would be far better of if there were no religions at all.

Why would we want to de-evolve?

The lesser mammals and other animals on our planet all live for the moment, with little thought (creative or otherwise) to their existance beyond just procreation.

When mankind began to imagine a deity or power greater than themselves, they also began the exploration of the mind and philosophy. It moved us from living in the caves to living among the clouds.

Religion has its problems, but that is no more serious than normal greed for what other people have.

In fact, it is the religious communities of the world who have stood up (to the point of death) to oppressive/tyrannical/abusive practices and regimes, to the betterment of all mankind.

It was a religious organization who advised Jefferson that the US should observe a separation of church and state.

It was Christian women who ultimately put an end to the practice of incarcerating entire families (rather than just the criminal).

It was Christians who, world wide, opposed SLAVERY and brought about its downfall.

The list goes on and on and on.

Historic states with theocratic aspects[edit]

See also: Imperial cult
The largest and best known theocracies in history were the Umayyad and early Abassid Caliphate, and the Papal States. And as with any other state or empire, pragmatism was part of the politics of these de jure theocracies.
Antiquity[edit]
Further information: Imperial cult, State church of the Roman Empire, and Israelites
The imperial cults in Ancient Egypt and the Roman Empire, as well as numerous other monarchies, deified the ruling monarch. The state religion was often dedicated to the worship of the ruler as a deity, or the incarnation thereof.
Early Israel was ruled by Judges before instituting a monarchy. The Judges were believed to be representatives of YHWH or Jehovah.
In ancient and medieval Christianity, Caesaropapism is the doctrine where a head of state is at the same time the head of the church.
Christian[edit]
In the Byzantine Empire (324-1453 AD) the Emperor was the head of civil society. He also exercised authority over the ecclesiastical authorities, or patriarchates. The emperor was considered to be God's omnipotent representative on earth and he ruled as an absolute autocrat.[26]
Geneva under John Calvin's influence and the Massachusetts Bay Colony of the "Puritans" had many characteristics of Protestant theocracies.
The short reign (1494–1498) of Girolamo Savonarola, a Dominican priest, over the city of Florence had features of a theocracy. During his rule, "un-Christian" books, statues, poetry, and other items were burned (in the Bonfire of the Vanities), sodomy was made a capital offense, and other Christian practices became law.
Although having a lay ruler (the King of Jerusalem) the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem (1099-1299) is considered to have some theocratic influences.
Also the Commonwealth of England under Oliver Cromwell as Lord Protector is also considered to have a considerable amount of theocratic influence.
The Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace in 1860s Qing China was a heterodox Christian theocracy led by the self-proclaimed younger brother of Jesus Christ, Hong Xiuquan. This theocratic state fought one of the most destructive wars in history, the Taiping Rebellion, against the Qing Dynasty for fifteen years before being crushed following the fall of the rebel capital Nanking.
Theocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JimBowie1958]

History is full of uncounted massacres by armies carrying a religious banner, though most such episodes were in ancient times with much less efficient killing technology and microscopically smaller populations. The number of religious exterminations of entire villages throughout history is innumerable, though most had body counts only in the hundreds or thousands. Alexander the Great is estimated to have executed a million. 11th century Crusades killed half a million Jews and Muslims. Genghis Khan's massacres of entire populations of cities probably totaled a million. The Aztecs once slaughtered 100,000 prisoners over four days. An unknown number, probably in the millions, died in the Devil's Wind action in Colonial India. Up to four million Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims died in post-Colonial India. The Ottoman Empire massacred two million Armenians over the years. Franco's Spanish Civil War killed a hundred thousand. A million have died in Rwanda, half a million in Darfur. And Christian vs. Muslim violence has obviously dominated our headlines for a decade, totaling somewhere in seven figures.

So who has been the worst throughout history: atheist regimes or religious regimes? Obviously the big numbers come from the 20th century superpowers (China, Russia, Germany) so the answer depends on how you classify those. And this is where the meat of these debates is usually found, splitting hairs on which regime is atheist, which is merely secular, which is non-Christian and thus fair game to be called atheist. Hitchens points out that Stalin's government had all the trappings of religion, including Orwell's totalitarian theocracy, and thus it's merely a play on words to say that it was not religious. Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist monk who grew up to execute Buddhist monks, along with anyone else he could lay his hands on. Whole books have been written on the occult underpinnings of Nazi Germany, the symbology of the Norse gods, to say nothing of the claims that Hitler was a Christian, Hitler was a Jew, and his own writings expressing the kinship he felt with the Muslims. A favorite counterpoint raised by Christian debaters is that these despots practiced Social Darwinism and were thus atheists by definition. In summary, the winner of these debates is the one who can convince the other that the big 20th century genocidal maniacs were motivated either by religion or by a desire to destroy religion. The entire debate is the logical fallacy of the excluded middle.

Who Kills More, Religion or Atheism?

Bullshit, no wars in the 20th century were religious wars until the jihadis came along.

Prior to that all the 20th century wars were motivated by ideology and none of the Mongols wars were religious, and that is the second biggest group of slaughters in mankinds history.

Idiot.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Obviously, you never took the time to compare the numbers.

IN fact, I have. Perhaps you should use your Internet search engine and explore the issue.

You might want to consider doing exactly that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7040768-post267.html

Bulshit.

WW1 hundreds of millions killed, WW2 hundreds of millions killed. Mao's conquest of China tens of millions killed. The Mongols conquests had tens of millions killed.

It is no contest that religion is NOT the biggest cause of war.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I would venture to say that more people have died in the name of religion than all the wars combined (some of which were caused by religious differences).

False.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Why would we want to de-evolve?

The lesser mammals and other animals on our planet all live for the moment, with little thought (creative or otherwise) to their existance beyond just procreation.

When mankind began to imagine a deity or power greater than themselves, they also began the exploration of the mind and philosophy. It moved us from living in the caves to living among the clouds.

Religion has its problems, but that is no more serious than normal greed for what other people have.

In fact, it is the religious communities of the world who have stood up (to the point of death) to oppressive/tyrannical/abusive practices and regimes, to the betterment of all mankind.

It was a religious organization who advised Jefferson that the US should observe a separation of church and state.

It was Christian women who ultimately put an end to the practice of incarcerating entire families (rather than just the criminal).

It was Christians who, world wide, opposed SLAVERY and brought about its downfall.

The list goes on and on and on.

Historic states with theocratic aspects[edit]

See also: Imperial cult
The largest and best known theocracies in history were the Umayyad and early Abassid Caliphate, and the Papal States. And as with any other state or empire, pragmatism was part of the politics of these de jure theocracies.
Antiquity[edit]
Further information: Imperial cult, State church of the Roman Empire, and Israelites
The imperial cults in Ancient Egypt and the Roman Empire, as well as numerous other monarchies, deified the ruling monarch. The state religion was often dedicated to the worship of the ruler as a deity, or the incarnation thereof.
Early Israel was ruled by Judges before instituting a monarchy. The Judges were believed to be representatives of YHWH or Jehovah.
In ancient and medieval Christianity, Caesaropapism is the doctrine where a head of state is at the same time the head of the church.
Christian[edit]
In the Byzantine Empire (324-1453 AD) the Emperor was the head of civil society. He also exercised authority over the ecclesiastical authorities, or patriarchates. The emperor was considered to be God's omnipotent representative on earth and he ruled as an absolute autocrat.[26]
Geneva under John Calvin's influence and the Massachusetts Bay Colony of the "Puritans" had many characteristics of Protestant theocracies.
The short reign (1494–1498) of Girolamo Savonarola, a Dominican priest, over the city of Florence had features of a theocracy. During his rule, "un-Christian" books, statues, poetry, and other items were burned (in the Bonfire of the Vanities), sodomy was made a capital offense, and other Christian practices became law.
Although having a lay ruler (the King of Jerusalem) the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem (1099-1299) is considered to have some theocratic influences.
Also the Commonwealth of England under Oliver Cromwell as Lord Protector is also considered to have a considerable amount of theocratic influence.
The Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace in 1860s Qing China was a heterodox Christian theocracy led by the self-proclaimed younger brother of Jesus Christ, Hong Xiuquan. This theocratic state fought one of the most destructive wars in history, the Taiping Rebellion, against the Qing Dynasty for fifteen years before being crushed following the fall of the rebel capital Nanking.
Theocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, my God, that is the biggest bunch of horse shit I have seen today.

When the king of England declared war from 1800 onward it was not to spread Anglicanism, dumbass, despite him having religious aspects to his office.

Your dishonesty is disgusting.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Gallileo said the earth revolved around the sun & the patriarchal, monotheistic church flipped-out & persecuted him Galileo affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Add to that the Inquisition and witch hunts

Sky pixies were dreamed up to acct for the unexplained. A lot has been 'splained since that time by natural science/reasoning. Read about the Enlightenment & how it led to the formation of the U.S. The Enlightenment didn't have much at all to do w/ sky pixies either.

"The Left says of the Right, “You fools, it is demonstrable that dinosaurs lived one hundred million years ago, I can prove it to you, how can you say the earth was created in 4000BCE?”

But this supposed intransigence on the part of the Religious Right is far less detrimental to the health of the body politic than the Left’s love affair with Marxism, Socialism, Racialism, the Command Economy, all of which have been proven via one hundred years of evidence shows only shortages, despotism and murder."
David Mamet, "The Secret Knowledge."

 

[syrenn]

in my opinion, the world and humanity would be far better of if there were no religions at all.

Why would we want to de-evolve?

The lesser mammals and other animals on our planet all live for the moment, with little thought (creative or otherwise) to their existance beyond just procreation.

When mankind began to imagine a deity or power greater than themselves, they also began the exploration of the mind and philosophy. It moved us from living in the caves to living among the clouds.

Religion has its problems, but that is no more serious than normal greed for what other people have.

what does religion have to do with evolution? Nothing at all.

"God" had nothing to do with moving from caves or using human imaginative to create a reason and explanation for things they did not understand..

 

[rdean]

Religion is the driving force behind the "Dark Ages". Today, the Middle East is still in the Dark Ages.

Religious institutions have excommunicated scientists for reporting their discoveries.

 

[Sunni Man]

Actually rdean, it was the Christian monks and the jewish Rabbi's who were the scientists in medieval Europe lead the people out of the Dark Ages. ...

 

[Darkwind]

in my opinion, the world and humanity would be far better of if there were no religions at all.

Why would we want to de-evolve?

The lesser mammals and other animals on our planet all live for the moment, with little thought (creative or otherwise) to their existance beyond just procreation.

When mankind began to imagine a deity or power greater than themselves, they also began the exploration of the mind and philosophy. It moved us from living in the caves to living among the clouds.

Religion has its problems, but that is no more serious than normal greed for what other people have.

what does religion have to do with evolution? Nothing at all.

"God" had nothing to do with moving from caves or using human imaginative to create a reason and explanation for things they did not understand..

You misunderstood the position.

To deny religion or to remove religion from society is regressive.

Let Me put it this way.

Any primate can go through life lacking the imagination to even consider that there is something greater than they are. They go through life procreating, not giving a thought to existence, morality, or even a higher purpose. They have no religion or ability to think critically about such things as creation or life. To them, it just is.

Humans, however, can do all those things, which sets us apart from the primates and other animals in the world. This is a feature that is designed into us, at first for survival in a world where we are physically weaker than most predators, but also so that we can evolve toward a greater goal.

As it stands, secular humanists are very much a greater danger to society than any religion. And trust Me, I have My issues with formal religion.

 

[Darkwind]

Obviously, you never took the time to compare the numbers.

IN fact, I have. Perhaps you should use your Internet search engine and explore the issue.

You might want to consider doing exactly that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7040768-post267.html

False premise.

I never claimed it.

I said more people have been killed by secular humanists than all the religions throughout history, combined.

And I am right. The number of killed by secular governments are staggering when compared to all other motives for war and killing.

 

[syrenn]

Why would we want to de-evolve?

The lesser mammals and other animals on our planet all live for the moment, with little thought (creative or otherwise) to their existance beyond just procreation.

When mankind began to imagine a deity or power greater than themselves, they also began the exploration of the mind and philosophy. It moved us from living in the caves to living among the clouds.

Religion has its problems, but that is no more serious than normal greed for what other people have.

what does religion have to do with evolution? Nothing at all.

"God" had nothing to do with moving from caves or using human imaginative to create a reason and explanation for things they did not understand..

You misunderstood the position.

To deny religion or to remove religion from society is regressive.

Let Me put it this way.

Any primate can go through life lacking the imagination to even consider that there is something greater than they are. They go through life procreating, not giving a thought to existence, morality, or even a higher purpose. They have no religion or ability to think critically about such things as creation or life. To them, it just is.

Humans, however, can do all those things, which sets us apart from the primates and other animals in the world. This is a feature that is designed into us, at first for survival in a world where we are physically weaker than most predators, but also so that we can evolve toward a greater goal.

As it stands, secular humanists are very much a greater danger to society than any religion. And trust Me, I have My issues with formal religion.

i misunderstand nothing

why would not believing in a "god" or subscribing to a cult... be "regressive"? Attributing civilization to a belief in god is wishfully thinking. Civilization would have happened with or without "god" or the cults that followed

It does not require god or a religion to have thought to existence, morality, or even a higher purpose. Critical thinking does not require "god" or a religion.

human brains being able to do things that primates cant....also does not require a belief in a god or having a membership in a cult.

 

[Hollie]

IN fact, I have. Perhaps you should use your Internet search engine and explore the issue.

You might want to consider doing exactly that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7040768-post267.html

False premise.

I never claimed it.

I said more people have been killed by secular humanists than all the religions throughout history, combined.

And I am right. The number of killed by secular governments are staggering when compared to all other motives for war and killing.

I know your claim is that “more people have been killed by secular humanists than all the religions throughout history, combined”, you just never supplied any data to support that claim. What I supplied earlier was an extensive, but not exhaustive list that contradicts your claim.

I’ve never been aware of any killing done under the banner of “secular humanism”. On the other hand, “God is on our side”, is a slogan often used to whip an armed force into believing their killing is justified.

Historically speaking, today's examples serve as well. The conflict in the Middle East is about land and power and wealth but also its source is that it is of a divine nature that calls to die and kill for the ongoing survival of the warring nations. The events of 9/11 didn't make a nation richer, nor did it gain land for the perpetrators, nor did it garner them more power-- in fact, al-Qaeda lost all three.

The general populace as a rule is less likely to die or kill for the idea that they may get more land or power or wealth-- but if they believe their gods are at stake, they gladly go into the swirling flames of perdition.

I’m not even sure you are defining your terms in connection with “secular humanists”. What does that mean? If you are referring to communist/Marxist governments, those are political ideologies.

 

[JimBowie1958]

what does religion have to do with evolution? Nothing at all.

"God" had nothing to do with moving from caves or using human imaginative to create a reason and explanation for things they did not understand..

You misunderstood the position.

To deny religion or to remove religion from society is regressive.

Let Me put it this way.

Any primate can go through life lacking the imagination to even consider that there is something greater than they are. They go through life procreating, not giving a thought to existence, morality, or even a higher purpose. They have no religion or ability to think critically about such things as creation or life. To them, it just is.

Humans, however, can do all those things, which sets us apart from the primates and other animals in the world. This is a feature that is designed into us, at first for survival in a world where we are physically weaker than most predators, but also so that we can evolve toward a greater goal.

As it stands, secular humanists are very much a greater danger to society than any religion. And trust Me, I have My issues with formal religion.

i misunderstand nothing

why would not believing in a "god" or subscribing to a cult... be "regressive"? Attributing civilization to a belief in god is wishfully thinking. Civilization would have happened with or without "god" or the cults that followed

It does not require god or a religion to have thought to existence, morality, or even a higher purpose. Critical thinking does not require "god" or a religion.

human brains being able to do things that primates cant....also does not require a belief in a god or having a membership in a cult.

It requires free thought to truly appreciate moral questions and to ignore such a critical step forward such as the realization that we have a Creator is definitely without a doubt regression to a primitive mind.

But you ignore this because it is not convenient to your lifestyle; so be it. You will reap what you sow.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You might want to consider doing exactly that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7040768-post267.html

False premise.

I never claimed it.

I said more people have been killed by secular humanists than all the religions throughout history, combined.

And I am right. The number of killed by secular governments are staggering when compared to all other motives for war and killing.

I know your claim is that “more people have been killed by secular humanists than all the religions throughout history, combined”, you just never supplied any data to support that claim. What I supplied earlier was an extensive, but not exhaustive list that contradicts your claim.

I’ve never been aware of any killing done under the banner of “secular humanism”. On the other hand, “God is on our side”, is a slogan often used to whip an armed force into believing their killing is justified. .

Lol, and no one has killed anyone under a banner labeled 'Religion' either, genius.

No, the secular humanists are a small subgroup of non religious who have slaughtered people for their own reasons; lust for conquest, lust for power, enslavement to foolish ideologies, etc. No one called it 'Secular Humanism', but that is what it was, lolol.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Actually rdean, it was the Christian monks and the jewish Rabbi's who were the scientists in medieval Europe lead the people out of the Dark Ages. ...

Don't tell RDean that; his brain might implode.

BTW, there was no real 'Dark Ages' anyway. The phrase originally was coined to refer to times when official histories were not being kept; people were too busy just staying alive. But the freedom they had then was considerably greater than what we have in modern society, especially in the Middle East, North Africa and Spain.

 

[Hollie]

False premise.

I never claimed it.

I said more people have been killed by secular humanists than all the religions throughout history, combined.

And I am right. The number of killed by secular governments are staggering when compared to all other motives for war and killing.

I know your claim is that “more people have been killed by secular humanists than all the religions throughout history, combined”, you just never supplied any data to support that claim. What I supplied earlier was an extensive, but not exhaustive list that contradicts your claim.

I’ve never been aware of any killing done under the banner of “secular humanism”. On the other hand, “God is on our side”, is a slogan often used to whip an armed force into believing their killing is justified. .

Lol, and no one has killed anyone under a banner labeled 'Religion' either, genius.

No, the secular humanists are a small subgroup of non religious who have slaughtered people for their own reasons; lust for conquest, lust for power, enslavement to foolish ideologies, etc. No one called it 'Secular Humanism', but that is what it was, lolol.

You should take some time to learn history.

Christianity might have crapped out if it hadn't been for Constantine winning his campaigns after having a "vision" to slap a cross on the shields of his infantry. There's that dynamic again though -- Constantine wants to be victorious, so he boosts the morale of his men by citing a fierce god will give them victory under "H"is name, and when they win, it seems the prophecy is upheld. Now that entire empire, safe and a lot richer, has a vested interest in being adherents to the religion that won the day. "lolol"