“Religion” causes mayhem, murder once again upon innocents

[TNHarley]

LOL yea, the millions that have died in the name of Christianity was standing up for it, and proudly done. In the DARK AGES. You realize if all that BS didnt happen, we could probably be far more advanced now, right?

So how far back are you going to go?

How about the past, say 100 years or so. Any mass killings by the evil Christians?

Christians don't give a rat's ass about athiests. The athiests will get their just rewards in the end.

I accept that. Maybe not as a group, individually, it happens all the time. Some christians want athiests to perish. Not all, some. Just like some athiests want Christians to perish. Not all, some. If both sides would quit tryign to slam each others beliefs down their throats.. If everyone could just come together and put their differences aside it would be soooo much better. Shit, im starting to sound like a hippy hehe

 

[turzovka]

LOL yea, the millions that have died in the name of Christianity was standing up for it, and proudly done. In the DARK AGES. You realize if all that BS didnt happen, we could probably be far more advanced now, right?

Can you justify that?

The Dark Ages started with the fall of Rome, "Extinguishing the light of Rome" as the world's most advanced civilization. It had nothing to do with religion. If Rome had not become decadent, had it not devolved into hedonism, debauchery and degredation we might be more advanced today. But, it did, and it fell of his own corruption. If you want to blame Christians for something, blame them for the Age of Enlightenment, of reason, morality and really superb art. Yes there were religious wars as Christianity became ascendant over the savagery so prevalent at the time. But the Christians won that war, those wars, without which we would not have the advancement we have.

Had there been no religious wars, we wouldn't have done without wars at all, we would just have had wars over different reasons. Rome pacified the world by force, not because they were communist democrats.

The dark ages was a "supression of free thought" Remember Galileo and others who were imprisoned, killed and/or tortured by going against church "dogma" because of their scientific discoveries? At that time educatioon was not open to the public, per say. Another example : Giordano Bruno, philosopher and astronomer, burned at the stake for espousing the theory that the earth and other planets revolved around the sun.

The history of Christian oppression of individual life, rights, values, happiness, pleasure, and sexuality is well documented...

The Huns and Goths had soemthign to do with the fall of Rome, right?

Yes, I think we all know about Galileo and Bruno and a few other off-colored episodes. Does that make atheism the victor? Does that discredit all Christian teaching?

I am not quite sure how much “Christian oppression” you are selling or want me to accept because you appear to have black colored glasses that only see black. Did you bother to consider all of the charity, sacrifice and virtue that Christianity has brought forth in this world? Did you bother to consider that the Church was the leader in science and education during the dark ages? Did you consider it was the Church that civilized Europe and beyond or do the pagan barbarians not concern you? Does Roman sacrifice of humans and the Aztec sacrifice of humans not a big dea since they were so “advanced?”

Until you take an honest look at the whole of this faith and not just its errors and sins --- which we accept and asked forgiveness for ---- can’t think of any other religion or nation that has been so forthcoming --- until you take an honest look, I submit your conclusions are very misleading and dangerous.

The charity, virtues and good deeds of Christianity is proof of its validity, the sins of its followers is proof of its humanity. God had no choice but to choose weak humans to serve Him and mankind and deliver his message.

 

[Katzndogz]

Rome collapsed because it got too big to govern effectively. It turned into a free-for-all and every man for himself. The Rule of Law began to collapse. Then the infrastructure collapsed. By the time Rome was sacked (circa 450 AD), its goose was already cooked. It grew too fat and got lazy. Heck, they had split the Empire in two a hundred years BEFORE the barbarians arrived at the gates.

Rone collapsed because no one there really CARED if it did or not any longer.

Sounds like the United States today and in the near future.

Quite so and many have made the comparison. One of the reasons offered for Rome's degeneracy was the lead in the water pipes made the Romans insane. Which is not far off from the number of people voluntarily taking drugs today. It's doubtful that Romans of the day could recognize the line of demarcation and say "this is the day we entered the dark ages". For the United States, we have already entered the new dark ages. It will be far deeper, and darker and last much longer than the age that followed Rome's fall.

 

[turzovka]

Why did Catholics and Protestants kill each other for decades in Northern Ireland?

Not because they could not tolerate the other not believing the same as themselves. It was far more to do with economic suppression of one class vs. the other class. You see that everywhere in history, sometimes the separation happens to be of different religious beliefs, but sometimes it is merely demographics, or nationalism, or race.

The only time Catholics and Protestants really were at war with eachother was in Europe during the 16th and 17th centuries and even then it was as much a sociological difference as it was resentment of the others’ beliefs. Read up on the Thirty Years War in Germany and one will discover it was not a clean division, there were Protestants and Catholics on both sides fighting each other. But by and large, Christian denominations have not been at war with each other over beliefs, almost at all, and that speaks to something higher.


This happened because "religion" is a creation of MAN - not GOD.

How would you know?

God is everywhere. God is in your heart, in your soul. God doesn't need a building. God doesn't need a spokesperson. God doesn't need you to show up on a certain day for a social event - God is open 24-7-365. And God certainly doesn't need your money.

So? Does that mean that God asks nothing of you? Does that mean everyone goes to heaven? Or maye perhaps God has a message and a purpose for His creation? And maybe he has spoken through the prophets and you and others have decided you know better?

I've been to the Mormon center in SLC. Nice digs. Cost a fortune.
Would God love them any less if they had a card table and two folding chairs?

No, but if you demand the Mormons or Catholics liquidate all their assets, then you better do the same and give it all to the poor and live in some cardboard box. Because the Bible says “how you measure others will be measured back to you.”

God would LOVE it, and God's vision of Eden on Earth would come to pass, if man would reject religious doctrine and its "them vs. us" mentality.

Sorry, wish I could help. Jesus Christ did not humble Himself, come down to earth to be reviled, ridiculed, tortured and hung on a cross if He did not have one very important reason for so doing. You go ahead and reject religious doctrine and good luck with that. As for me and my house, we will serve Jesus and His Word.


Religion is, essentially, "God For Dummies".

Which causes me to recall a passage from Proverbs:
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

 

[TNHarley]

Can you justify that?

The Dark Ages started with the fall of Rome, "Extinguishing the light of Rome" as the world's most advanced civilization. It had nothing to do with religion. If Rome had not become decadent, had it not devolved into hedonism, debauchery and degredation we might be more advanced today. But, it did, and it fell of his own corruption. If you want to blame Christians for something, blame them for the Age of Enlightenment, of reason, morality and really superb art. Yes there were religious wars as Christianity became ascendant over the savagery so prevalent at the time. But the Christians won that war, those wars, without which we would not have the advancement we have.

Had there been no religious wars, we wouldn't have done without wars at all, we would just have had wars over different reasons. Rome pacified the world by force, not because they were communist democrats.

The dark ages was a "supression of free thought" Remember Galileo and others who were imprisoned, killed and/or tortured by going against church "dogma" because of their scientific discoveries? At that time educatioon was not open to the public, per say. Another example : Giordano Bruno, philosopher and astronomer, burned at the stake for espousing the theory that the earth and other planets revolved around the sun.

The history of Christian oppression of individual life, rights, values, happiness, pleasure, and sexuality is well documented...

The Huns and Goths had soemthign to do with the fall of Rome, right?

Yes, I think we all know about Galileo and Bruno and a few other off-colored episodes. Does that make atheism the victor? Does that discredit all Christian teaching?

I am not quite sure how much “Christian oppression” you are selling or want me to accept because you appear to have black colored glasses that only see black. Did you bother to consider all of the charity, sacrifice and virtue that Christianity has brought forth in this world? Did you bother to consider that the Church was the leader in science and education during the dark ages? Did you consider it was the Church that civilized Europe and beyond or do the pagan barbarians not concern you? Does Roman sacrifice of humans and the Aztec sacrifice of humans not a big dea since they were so “advanced?”

Until you take an honest look at the whole of this faith and not just its errors and sins --- which we accept and asked forgiveness for ---- can’t think of any other religion or nation that has been so forthcoming --- until you take an honest look, I submit your conclusions are very misleading and dangerous.

The charity, virtues and good deeds of Christianity is proof of its validity, the sins of its followers is proof of its humanity. God had no choice but to choose weak humans to serve Him and mankind and deliver his message.

Im not saying either or is a victor. That has nothing to do with the point of it. Im not trying to discredit any Christian teachings. I was simply pointing out the flaws of the religion. You were pointing out the flaws of other religions. I believe africans, Arabs and Romans had a big influence on Europes civilization. And you are talking about them being the leader, maybe. I mean they tortured Gallileo to admit he was wrong about the Earth being round for crying out loud. A leader in science only if it fit and supported their preconceived ideas and goals. If it didn't they were suppressed. Sorry for my terribly written paragraph lol

 

[JKVegas]

Rome collapsed because it got too big to govern effectively. It turned into a free-for-all and every man for himself. The Rule of Law began to collapse. Then the infrastructure collapsed. By the time Rome was sacked (circa 450 AD), its goose was already cooked. It grew too fat and got lazy. Heck, they had split the Empire in two a hundred years BEFORE the barbarians arrived at the gates.

Rone collapsed because no one there really CARED if it did or not any longer.

Sounds like the United States today and in the near future.

Could be.

 

[JKVegas]

Why did Catholics and Protestants kill each other for decades in Northern Ireland?

Not because they could not tolerate the other not believing the same as themselves. It was far more to do with economic suppression of one class vs. the other class. You see that everywhere in history, sometimes the separation happens to be of different religious beliefs, but sometimes it is merely demographics, or nationalism, or race.

The only time Catholics and Protestants really were at war with eachother was in Europe during the 16th and 17th centuries and even then it was as much a sociological difference as it was resentment of the others’ beliefs. Read up on the Thirty Years War in Germany and one will discover it was not a clean division, there were Protestants and Catholics on both sides fighting each other. But by and large, Christian denominations have not been at war with each other over beliefs, almost at all, and that speaks to something higher.


This happened because "religion" is a creation of MAN - not GOD.

How would you know?

God is everywhere. God is in your heart, in your soul. God doesn't need a building. God doesn't need a spokesperson. God doesn't need you to show up on a certain day for a social event - God is open 24-7-365. And God certainly doesn't need your money.

So? Does that mean that God asks nothing of you? Does that mean everyone goes to heaven? Or maye perhaps God has a message and a purpose for His creation? And maybe he has spoken through the prophets and you and others have decided you know better?

I've been to the Mormon center in SLC. Nice digs. Cost a fortune.
Would God love them any less if they had a card table and two folding chairs?

No, but if you demand the Mormons or Catholics liquidate all their assets, then you better do the same and give it all to the poor and live in some cardboard box. Because the Bible says “how you measure others will be measured back to you.”

God would LOVE it, and God's vision of Eden on Earth would come to pass, if man would reject religious doctrine and its "them vs. us" mentality.

Sorry, wish I could help. Jesus Christ did not humble Himself, come down to earth to be reviled, ridiculed, tortured and hung on a cross if He did not have one very important reason for so doing. You go ahead and reject religious doctrine and good luck with that. As for me and my house, we will serve Jesus and His Word.


Religion is, essentially, "God For Dummies".

Which causes me to recall a passage from Proverbs:
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

I'll give you this much - when you miss a point you really miss it.

Jesus Christ was a MAN sent by the REAL God to try to straighten out the World. People listened for a little while, then went back to the same ol' thing.

I wish MORE people would live by the words of Jesus, or Gahndi, or MLK. Live together in peace, help one another, do unto others as you would have done unto you ..........................

You are interpreting the Bible as the word of God, when it is, in fact, a book written by humans trying to influence other humans to see things THEIR way. There are so many contradictory things in that book.

Love everyone equally - except gays. That's a one-way ticket to hell. And those pesky unbelievers. Yep, that'll doom you as well.

As I'm sure there are many contradictions in the Koran. Or any other religious manual.

 

[turzovka]

Why did Catholics and Protestants kill each other for decades in Northern Ireland?

Not because they could not tolerate the other not believing the same as themselves. It was far more to do with economic suppression of one class vs. the other class. You see that everywhere in history, sometimes the separation happens to be of different religious beliefs, but sometimes it is merely demographics, or nationalism, or race.

The only time Catholics and Protestants really were at war with eachother was in Europe during the 16th and 17th centuries and even then it was as much a sociological difference as it was resentment of the others’ beliefs. Read up on the Thirty Years War in Germany and one will discover it was not a clean division, there were Protestants and Catholics on both sides fighting each other. But by and large, Christian denominations have not been at war with each other over beliefs, almost at all, and that speaks to something higher.


This happened because "religion" is a creation of MAN - not GOD.

How would you know?

God is everywhere. God is in your heart, in your soul. God doesn't need a building. God doesn't need a spokesperson. God doesn't need you to show up on a certain day for a social event - God is open 24-7-365. And God certainly doesn't need your money.

So? Does that mean that God asks nothing of you? Does that mean everyone goes to heaven? Or maye perhaps God has a message and a purpose for His creation? And maybe he has spoken through the prophets and you and others have decided you know better?

I've been to the Mormon center in SLC. Nice digs. Cost a fortune.
Would God love them any less if they had a card table and two folding chairs?

No, but if you demand the Mormons or Catholics liquidate all their assets, then you better do the same and give it all to the poor and live in some cardboard box. Because the Bible says “how you measure others will be measured back to you.”

God would LOVE it, and God's vision of Eden on Earth would come to pass, if man would reject religious doctrine and its "them vs. us" mentality.

Sorry, wish I could help. Jesus Christ did not humble Himself, come down to earth to be reviled, ridiculed, tortured and hung on a cross if He did not have one very important reason for so doing. You go ahead and reject religious doctrine and good luck with that. As for me and my house, we will serve Jesus and His Word.


Religion is, essentially, "God For Dummies".

Which causes me to recall a passage from Proverbs:
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

I'll give you this much - when you miss a point you really miss it.

I'll give you this much - when you miss a point you really miss it. Jesus Christ was a MAN sent by the REAL God to try to straighten out the World. People listened for a little while, then went back to the same ol' thing.

Yes, and I notice all the evidence you have backing up that assertion is missing.

I wish MORE people would live by the words of Jesus, or Gahndi, or MLK. Live together in peace, help one another, do unto others as you would have done unto you ...................

Your point being what?... that Christianity has inhibited that lofty goal? Perhaps if you were being honest you would realize it has been the greatest entity in history for advancing the cause of being kind to one another and forgiving one another.

You are interpreting the Bible as the word of God, when it is, in fact, a book written by humans trying to influence other humans to see things THEIR way. There are so many contradictory things in that book.

You come across so strange to me. You suggest, almost strongly, that you will acknowledge there may be a God/creator out there somewhere, but for this same “god” to ever have communicated with his highest creation, man, in any way is preposterous. Why is that? Is it because you know God better than all who have gone before you and you are sure the God you know would never have prophets revealing His word, or eye witnesses to supernatural manifestations, or would ever think of communicating to us a purpose for our existence? No, reason is not on your side or even the side of agnostics.

Love everyone equally - except gays. That's a one-way ticket to hell. And those pesky unbelievers. Yep, that'll doom you as well.

Maybe your problem is you really do not know or understand what Christianity stands for? You surely do not show any knowledge of Catholic teaching. Catholicism does not single out gay sex as any special or super-bad sin, you do, and so does the media. All sex outside of marriage is spoken against, so do not ask us to make allowances for teens and young adults experimenting with their own kind. But more importantly, the Catholic Church condemns no man to hell, never has, so neither do they say that about homosexuality. Or about unbelievers as you intimate. They say the very opposite --- i.e. that salvation is open to all men, believers and unbelievers alike.

As I'm sure there are many contradictions in the Koran. Or any other religious manual.

Your Biblical contradictions are hardly a deal breaker for us. I have no time to try to reconcile OT law with NT teaching. Nor does it bother me that God appears a paradox, because His wisdom dwarfs our understanding. But our Lord has given us all we need to know and understand and the evidence for it. I am not about to reject this gift just because I cannot satisfactorily answer the question why is there a hell.

 

[saveliberty]

All of these people committing violence in the name of their God, truly are not following the teachings of that God. Free will exists for Christians, Jews and Muslims. What WE do with that often is not God's way.

Your OP is false. Religion does not cause mayhem or murder, sinners cause that. Technically there are no innocents, just sinners.

 

[TNHarley]

Turz, I guess we are done?

 

[LogikAndReazon]

LOL yea, the millions that have died in the name of Christianity was standing up for it, and proudly done. In the DARK AGES. You realize if all that BS didnt happen, we could probably be far more advanced now, right?

like well intentioned godless marxists perhaps .

 

[turzovka]

Turz, I guess we are done?

Well I thought we were done because your last answer (below) was almost amiable in its whole.

Im not saying either or is a victor. That has nothing to do with the point of it. Im not trying to discredit any Christian teachings. I was simply pointing out the flaws of the religion. You were pointing out the flaws of other religions. I believe africans, Arabs and Romans had a big influence on Europes civilization. And you are talking about them being the leader, maybe. I mean they tortured Gallileo to admit he was wrong about the Earth being round for crying out loud. A leader in science only if it fit and supported their preconceived ideas and goals. If it didn't they were suppressed. Sorry for my terribly written paragraph lol

Sure Christianity is flawed in some sense, certainly in its members and also in its delivery at times as well. Not to mention all the denominations. But we Christians have so many battles to fight with the heathen world attacking our mission that a Catholic like me can hardly feel right going toe to toe with a Protestant sect. So let the flaws not deter us from the greater mission of saving souls. I might point out to you that the Catholic Church teaches there are three churches in the world. In heaven, we are referred to as the Church Triumphant. In purgatory, the body of believers is referred to as the Church Suffering. And on earth the body of believers is referred to as the Church Militant. Hence, my use of the phrase “battles to fight against paganism, et al.” But truer to the fact is we are waging a battle of good against evil, Christ vs. the devil.

Yes, perhaps the Africans, arabs and romans played significant roles in the civilization of Europe as well, but Christianity I submit still far greater. For one, if it was not for Christianity Europe would have been totally run over by Islam and I do not see the rest of Islamic world today so “advanced” in most ways. The Catholic Church and its clergy and missionaries founded the university system, had as many scientists as the secular world, founded hospitals and many forms of government. Was quite charitable to aliens and foreigners, far more than it was despotic or subjugating. Would secular text books in our schools ever give it the credit it deserves? What do you think?

Galileo was never tortured. He was under house arrest most of his years but was treated quite humanely and spoken well of in many Catholic circles. There is plenty of information on this. The fact the Catholic Church has to apologize for a couple of major errors in judgment (note: this is not on faith and morals where it does not error) gets a little bit tiresome to hear. Its contributions to science are enormous, its contributions to civilization in general were and are enormous, and yet, the secular world wants everyone to believe we are the enemies of progress. (sigh) You need to keep remembering that the Church is made up of sinners and weak humans. Grace surely helps but we are not perfect by any means. Jesus teachings are.

 

[TNHarley]

Turz, I guess we are done?

Well I thought we were done because your last answer (below) was almost amiable in its whole.

Im not saying either or is a victor. That has nothing to do with the point of it. Im not trying to discredit any Christian teachings. I was simply pointing out the flaws of the religion. You were pointing out the flaws of other religions. I believe africans, Arabs and Romans had a big influence on Europes civilization. And you are talking about them being the leader, maybe. I mean they tortured Gallileo to admit he was wrong about the Earth being round for crying out loud. A leader in science only if it fit and supported their preconceived ideas and goals. If it didn't they were suppressed. Sorry for my terribly written paragraph lol

Sure Christianity is flawed in some sense, certainly in its members and also in its delivery at times as well. Not to mention all the denominations. But we Christians have so many battles to fight with the heathen world attacking our mission that a Catholic like me can hardly feel right going toe to toe with a Protestant sect. So let the flaws not deter us from the greater mission of saving souls. I might point out to you that the Catholic Church teaches there are three churches in the world. In heaven, we are referred to as the Church Triumphant. In purgatory, the body of believers is referred to as the Church Suffering. And on earth the body of believers is referred to as the Church Militant. Hence, my use of the phrase “battles to fight against paganism, et al.” But truer to the fact is we are waging a battle of good against evil, Christ vs. the devil.

Yes, perhaps the Africans, arabs and romans played significant roles in the civilization of Europe as well, but Christianity I submit still far greater. For one, if it was not for Christianity Europe would have been totally run over by Islam and I do not see the rest of Islamic world today so “advanced” in most ways. The Catholic Church and its clergy and missionaries founded the university system, had as many scientists as the secular world, founded hospitals and many forms of government. Was quite charitable to aliens and foreigners, far more than it was despotic or subjugating. Would secular text books in our schools ever give it the credit it deserves? What do you think?

Galileo was never tortured. He was under house arrest most of his years but was treated quite humanely and spoken well of in many Catholic circles. There is plenty of information on this. The fact the Catholic Church has to apologize for a couple of major errors in judgment (note: this is not on faith and morals where it does not error) gets a little bit tiresome to hear. Its contributions to science are enormous, its contributions to civilization in general were and are enormous, and yet, the secular world wants everyone to believe we are the enemies of progress. (sigh) You need to keep remembering that the Church is made up of sinners and weak humans. Grace surely helps but we are not perfect by any means. Jesus teachings are.

Well good. I didn't know what your opinion was. It is hard to have a good argument about religion and the opposing not get all pissed and shout insults, beer bottles and fists lol. I enjoyed it. Thanks!

 

[turzovka]

Turz, I guess we are done?

Well I thought we were done because your last answer (below) was almost amiable in its whole.

Im not saying either or is a victor. That has nothing to do with the point of it. Im not trying to discredit any Christian teachings. I was simply pointing out the flaws of the religion. You were pointing out the flaws of other religions. I believe africans, Arabs and Romans had a big influence on Europes civilization. And you are talking about them being the leader, maybe. I mean they tortured Gallileo to admit he was wrong about the Earth being round for crying out loud. A leader in science only if it fit and supported their preconceived ideas and goals. If it didn't they were suppressed. Sorry for my terribly written paragraph lol

Sure Christianity is flawed in some sense, certainly in its members and also in its delivery at times as well. Not to mention all the denominations. But we Christians have so many battles to fight with the heathen world attacking our mission that a Catholic like me can hardly feel right going toe to toe with a Protestant sect. So let the flaws not deter us from the greater mission of saving souls. I might point out to you that the Catholic Church teaches there are three churches in the world. In heaven, we are referred to as the Church Triumphant. In purgatory, the body of believers is referred to as the Church Suffering. And on earth the body of believers is referred to as the Church Militant. Hence, my use of the phrase “battles to fight against paganism, et al.” But truer to the fact is we are waging a battle of good against evil, Christ vs. the devil.

Yes, perhaps the Africans, arabs and romans played significant roles in the civilization of Europe as well, but Christianity I submit still far greater. For one, if it was not for Christianity Europe would have been totally run over by Islam and I do not see the rest of Islamic world today so “advanced” in most ways. The Catholic Church and its clergy and missionaries founded the university system, had as many scientists as the secular world, founded hospitals and many forms of government. Was quite charitable to aliens and foreigners, far more than it was despotic or subjugating. Would secular text books in our schools ever give it the credit it deserves? What do you think?

Galileo was never tortured. He was under house arrest most of his years but was treated quite humanely and spoken well of in many Catholic circles. There is plenty of information on this. The fact the Catholic Church has to apologize for a couple of major errors in judgment (note: this is not on faith and morals where it does not error) gets a little bit tiresome to hear. Its contributions to science are enormous, its contributions to civilization in general were and are enormous, and yet, the secular world wants everyone to believe we are the enemies of progress. (sigh) You need to keep remembering that the Church is made up of sinners and weak humans. Grace surely helps but we are not perfect by any means. Jesus teachings are.

Well good. I didn't know what your opinion was. It is hard to have a good argument about religion and the opposing not get all pissed and shout insults, beer bottles and fists lol. I enjoyed it. Thanks!

I appreciate your civility too, especially since I know I started off as a jerk or have in the past. So thanks.

By the way: That avitar of yours? That is going to cost you an extra 90 days in purgatory. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.