Religion As A Virus Of The Mind

[Dante]

I think we have passed the need for mysticism.

But the need of religion, I don't think we have passed.

Of course, there a couple of "mystics" on board that will argue we need to learn about experiences and intuition that only a few can qualify.

methink you have it backwards.

We have passed the need for religion - ages ago.

Our society needs new myths and symbols to keep our collective psyche from cracking.

see: Joseph Campbell

And the need arises from...........?

The subconsciousness? Some call it the soul. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I do believe in the mind. I'm a nonbeliever who thinks the psyche cries out for certain things and that these cries are passed down through genetic code

 

[Dante]

That's fine for the survival or spread of religion, but what of its origins?

How is it that millennia ago, disparate tribes of people isolated from each other developed virtually the same concepts with regard to religion?

I suspect it's the same mechanism that causes similar survival strategies to evolve in unrelated species. Some approaches just prove useful. The religion meme was core to the development of modern civilization.

core to modern civilization or human survival?

 

[dblack]

That's fine for the survival or spread of religion, but what of its origins?

How is it that millennia ago, disparate tribes of people isolated from each other developed virtually the same concepts with regard to religion?

I suspect it's the same mechanism that causes similar survival strategies to evolve in unrelated species. Some approaches just prove useful. The religion meme was core to the development of modern civilization.

core to modern civilization or human survival?

Hmm... I suspect some of both. Though survival could have been accomplished in other ways. But it's sort of hard to imagine how we might have managed the alignment necessary for civilization without something very much like religion to get everyone "on the same page".

 

[Dante]

I suspect it's the same mechanism that causes similar survival strategies to evolve in unrelated species. Some approaches just prove useful. The religion meme was core to the development of modern civilization.

core to modern civilization or human survival?

Hmm... I suspect some of both. Though survival could have been accomplished in other ways. But it's sort of hard to imagine how we might have managed the alignment necessary for civilization without something very much like religion to get everyone "on the same page".

civilization strengthened the odds of survival: the end goal

The research Joseph Campbell did on comparative mythology is truly mind boggling. It is taking most of my adult life to grasp what the man was laying out and still...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces

http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php

 

[HUGGY]

"the laziness on part of the Theologians in the religions" - your words
do you live in the real world?

Theologians are lazy? They never STFU

Mysticism addresses the psyche

They are intellectually lazy. They have resigned themselves to believe that all things human can and MUST be dealt with using "scripture". That worked before modern science. There was nothing to compare their "documents" to. The only objections to their dogma came from independant thinkers with little more foundation than observation and comon sense. With a power structure intertwined with monarchys and armies alternate opinions were handled brutally further re-enforcing the co-operation of the comon man and monarchs alike.

Now in the face of scientific fact and weapons and skills that make the possibility of the need to have "god" on ones or one's countries side for defense or conquest there isn't any weight placed on prayer or gods will at any level above the outcome of sporting events.

God did not create the atomic bomb..man did. God did not create the hand granade or the machine gun. God did not create AWAC and electronic emitting radio waves that defeat enemy radar and communications. We did. God has been benched in the decision making process of war and defense.

Gods will used to mean something. If your army succeeded it showed more than your earthly strength in numbers and tactics ...there was an acknowledgement all around that you were blessed with more than an army or intelligent officers..you had the fullfilled prayers to the allmighty to thank..and it could not be disproven. How convenient for the theologens.

At first no common man and few royalty were even allowed access to the scripture. Now the common man has access to ALL knowledge. People still cling to the old ways largely because most people are still uneducated and not prepared to understand new science even when it is presented to them. Most people are just doing all they can to get by getting closer to the inevitable death day by day. Death means THE END and the only altrernative proposed and promised is heaven or hell. Science does not speculate what comes after death. That is one of the biggest negatives for science..It has no alternative and never will for what religion promises.

People are scared weak minded suckers. As the theologens took credit for victory in war and defense today's theologens take credit for and make promises about something they cannot prove any more than it can be disproven. As long as there are fools there will be religion.

 

[Dante]

"the laziness on part of the Theologians in the religions" - your words
do you live in the real world?

Theologians are lazy? They never STFU

Mysticism addresses the psyche

They are intellectually lazy. They have resigned themselves to believe that all things human can and MUST be dealt with using "scripture". That worked before modern science.

...

like I said, you need to get out more. Theologians and idiot preachers are different species.

 

[Political Junky]

Memes are supposed to be ideas that evolve through natural selection, with successful ones spreading, and unsuccessful ones dying off. I was trying to determine why a person who wants to pretends that religion is stupid is attempting to rely on a concept that has no basis in science.

Dawkin's ideas are falling to advanced science, yet people still look to him as an expert. He really sin't, and the soomer uninformed proponents of evolution realize it, the better off they will be in the debate.

The Dawkins dogma – New Scientist K21st – Essential 21st Century Knowledge

Ok, sorry but you are not getting what i said. Granted i did not put it in quotes, but it did seem to fit.

I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense

~Han Solo, starwars

the strangest and most intertaining stuff I see revolves around political hacks and their blind faith in the party or leader.
I don't think God gives a rats ass about their madness.

John Dean discusses this need of conservatives for a strong leader/authoritarian. He thinks they'd follow him off a cliff.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

They are intellectually lazy. They have resigned themselves to believe that all things human can and MUST be dealt with using "scripture". That worked before modern science. There was nothing to compare their "documents" to. The only objections to their dogma came from independant thinkers with little more foundation than observation and comon sense. With a power structure intertwined with monarchys and armies alternate opinions were handled brutally further re-enforcing the co-operation of the comon man and monarchs alike.

Theologians think everything can be dealt with using scripture? When did they start doing that? Have you ever read any theologians?

Wait, I forgot, books are books are boring, you always wait for the movie. Interesting that you would dismiss anyone as being intelectually lazy when you don't even read.

Now in the face of scientific fact and weapons and skills that make the possibility of the need to have "god" on ones or one's countries side for defense or conquest there isn't any weight placed on prayer or gods will at any level above the outcome of sporting events.

Which explains why Israel won the 6 day war when they were facing multiple opponents with larger, better equipped armies. Or did that happen in the Dark Ages when prayer still worked and no one ever won a war as a result of superior technology, better planning, having more men, or simply through luck.

God did not create the atomic bomb..man did. God did not create the hand granade or the machine gun. God did not create AWAC and electronic emitting radio waves that defeat enemy radar and communications. We did. God has been benched in the decision making process of war and defense.

Don't tell the Ayotollah's in Iran that, they might behead you for blasphemy.

Gods will used to mean something. If your army succeeded it showed more than your earthly strength in numbers and tactics ...there was an acknowledgement all around that you were blessed with more than an army or intelligent officers..you had the fullfilled prayers to the allmighty to thank..and it could not be disproven. How convenient for the theologens.

How convenient for you you have no idea how theologians actually approach a subject.

At first no common man and few royalty were even allowed access to the scripture. Now the common man has access to ALL knowledge. People still cling to the old ways largely because most people are still uneducated and not prepared to understand new science even when it is presented to them. Most people are just doing all they can to get by getting closer to the inevitable death day by day. Death means THE END and the only altrernative proposed and promised is heaven or hell. Science does not speculate what comes after death. That is one of the biggest negatives for science..It has no alternative and never will for what religion promises.

Unlike, say, you, who thinks not reading books is a virtue. Not sure why that makes you smarter than, for example, the guy that figured out how to write things down in the first place, but you obviously think you are. I guess there is something to be said for osmosis after all.

People are scared weak minded suckers. As the theologens took credit for victory in war and defense today's theologens take credit for and make promises about something they cannot prove any more than it can be disproven. As long as there are fools there will be religion.

Theologians don't generally take credit for real world events, you would know that if you actually read books.

 

[HUGGY]

"the laziness on part of the Theologians in the religions" - your words
do you live in the real world?

Theologians are lazy? They never STFU

Mysticism addresses the psyche

They are intellectually lazy. They have resigned themselves to believe that all things human can and MUST be dealt with using "scripture". That worked before modern science.
They are intellectually lazy. They have resigned themselves to believe that all things human can and MUST be dealt with using "scripture". That worked before modern science. There was nothing to compare their "documents" to. The only objections to their dogma came from independant thinkers with little more foundation than observation and comon sense. With a power structure intertwined with monarchys and armies alternate opinions were handled brutally further re-enforcing the co-operation of the comon man and monarchs alike.

Now in the face of scientific fact and weapons and skills that make the possibility of the need to have "god" on ones or one's countries side for defense or conquest there isn't any weight placed on prayer or gods will at any level above the outcome of sporting events.

God did not create the atomic bomb..man did. God did not create the hand granade or the machine gun. God did not create AWAC and electronic emitting radio waves that defeat enemy radar and communications. We did. God has been benched in the decision making process of war and defense.

Gods will used to mean something. If your army succeeded it showed more than your earthly strength in numbers and tactics ...there was an acknowledgement all around that you were blessed with more than an army or intelligent officers..you had the fullfilled prayers to the allmighty to thank..and it could not be disproven. How convenient for the theologens.

At first no common man and few royalty were even allowed access to the scripture. Now the common man has access to ALL knowledge. People still cling to the old ways largely because most people are still uneducated and not prepared to understand new science even when it is presented to them. Most people are just doing all they can to get by getting closer to the inevitable death day by day. Death means THE END and the only altrernative proposed and promised is heaven or hell. Science does not speculate what comes after death. That is one of the biggest negatives for science..It has no alternative and never will for what religion promises.

People are scared weak minded suckers. As the theologens took credit for victory in war and defense today's theologens take credit for and make promises about something they cannot prove any more than it can be disproven. As long as there are fools there will be religion.
__________________
space!


HUGGY QUOTES "Only a fool would make a deal with the devil without looking at the devil in the details"
"I would give my left nut to be the guy who invented God"
"If you can imagine one thing..You can dream anything"
My friend Jay Craig: "Keep your basement clean..You never know when someone might want to go down there"

...

like I said, you need to get out more. Theologians and idiot preachers are different species.

"theologian - someone who is learned in theology or who speculates about theology
theologiser, theologist, theologizer
Church Father, Father of the Church, Father - (Christianity) any of about 70 theologians in the period from the 2nd to the 7th century whose writing established and confirmed official church doctrine; in the Roman Catholic Church some were later declared saints and became Doctor of the Church; the best known Latin Church Fathers are Ambrose, Augustine, Gregory the Great, and Jerome; those who wrote in Greek include Athanasius, Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom
Doctor of the Church, Doctor - (Roman Catholic Church) a title conferred on 33 saints who distinguished themselves through the orthodoxy of their theological teaching; "the Doctors of the Church greatly influenced Christian thought down to the late Middle Ages"
eschatologist - a theologian who specializes in eschatology
futurist - a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) will be fulfilled in the future
presentist - a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) are being fulfilled at the present time
preterist - a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) have already been fulfilled
bookman, scholar, scholarly person, student - a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines"


There is a reason why we are supposed to use the whole quote. Cherry picking and leaving out important references and saying lame insults based on your selective quotations isn't really what I would expect from you.

If you didn't understand my post..OK..that doesn't mean I need more air. As it is I get out quite a bit.

In the 14th and 15th centuries long before the printing press the Theologions were the gate keepers of scripture. They had huge power. "Idiot preachers" are clowns and fools by comparison. These days serious people take no advice from them. Today Rush Limbaugh carries more weight than any idiot preacher in the country. Back in the dark ages religion and the Theologions WERE the power brokers. My point being that science has pushed religion back into the churches and is driving a wooden stake slowly into it's heart. Some day the demons and fairies will all be dead. There is no other possibility as science shines the light of truth on mysticism.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"the laziness on part of the Theologians in the religions" - your words
do you live in the real world?

Theologians are lazy? They never STFU

Mysticism addresses the psyche

They are intellectually lazy. They have resigned themselves to believe that all things human can and MUST be dealt with using "scripture". That worked before modern science.

...

like I said, you need to get out more. Theologians and idiot preachers are different species.

Look at that, Dante actually knows something.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

They are intellectually lazy. They have resigned themselves to believe that all things human can and MUST be dealt with using "scripture". That worked before modern science.
They are intellectually lazy. They have resigned themselves to believe that all things human can and MUST be dealt with using "scripture". That worked before modern science. There was nothing to compare their "documents" to. The only objections to their dogma came from independant thinkers with little more foundation than observation and comon sense. With a power structure intertwined with monarchys and armies alternate opinions were handled brutally further re-enforcing the co-operation of the comon man and monarchs alike.

Now in the face of scientific fact and weapons and skills that make the possibility of the need to have "god" on ones or one's countries side for defense or conquest there isn't any weight placed on prayer or gods will at any level above the outcome of sporting events.

God did not create the atomic bomb..man did. God did not create the hand granade or the machine gun. God did not create AWAC and electronic emitting radio waves that defeat enemy radar and communications. We did. God has been benched in the decision making process of war and defense.

Gods will used to mean something. If your army succeeded it showed more than your earthly strength in numbers and tactics ...there was an acknowledgement all around that you were blessed with more than an army or intelligent officers..you had the fullfilled prayers to the allmighty to thank..and it could not be disproven. How convenient for the theologens.

At first no common man and few royalty were even allowed access to the scripture. Now the common man has access to ALL knowledge. People still cling to the old ways largely because most people are still uneducated and not prepared to understand new science even when it is presented to them. Most people are just doing all they can to get by getting closer to the inevitable death day by day. Death means THE END and the only altrernative proposed and promised is heaven or hell. Science does not speculate what comes after death. That is one of the biggest negatives for science..It has no alternative and never will for what religion promises.

People are scared weak minded suckers. As the theologens took credit for victory in war and defense today's theologens take credit for and make promises about something they cannot prove any more than it can be disproven. As long as there are fools there will be religion.
__________________
space!


HUGGY QUOTES "Only a fool would make a deal with the devil without looking at the devil in the details"
"I would give my left nut to be the guy who invented God"
"If you can imagine one thing..You can dream anything"
My friend Jay Craig: "Keep your basement clean..You never know when someone might want to go down there"

...

like I said, you need to get out more. Theologians and idiot preachers are different species.

"theologian - someone who is learned in theology or who speculates about theology
theologiser, theologist, theologizer
Church Father, Father of the Church, Father - (Christianity) any of about 70 theologians in the period from the 2nd to the 7th century whose writing established and confirmed official church doctrine; in the Roman Catholic Church some were later declared saints and became Doctor of the Church; the best known Latin Church Fathers are Ambrose, Augustine, Gregory the Great, and Jerome; those who wrote in Greek include Athanasius, Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom
Doctor of the Church, Doctor - (Roman Catholic Church) a title conferred on 33 saints who distinguished themselves through the orthodoxy of their theological teaching; "the Doctors of the Church greatly influenced Christian thought down to the late Middle Ages"
eschatologist - a theologian who specializes in eschatology
futurist - a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) will be fulfilled in the future
presentist - a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) are being fulfilled at the present time
preterist - a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) have already been fulfilled
bookman, scholar, scholarly person, student - a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines"


There is a reason why we are supposed to use the whole quote. Cherry picking and leaving out important references and saying lame insults based on your selective quotations isn't really what I would expect from you.

If you didn't understand my post..OK..that doesn't mean I need more air. As it is I get out quite a bit.

In the 14th and 15th centuries long before the printing press the Theologions were the gate keepers of scripture. They had huge power. "Idiot preachers" are clowns and fools by comparison. These days serious people take no advice from them. Today Rush Limbaugh carries more weight than any idiot preacher in the country. Back in the dark ages religion and the Theologions WERE the power brokers. My point being that science has pushed religion back into the churches and is driving a wooden stake slowly into it's heart. Some day the demons and fairies will all be dead. There is no other possibility as science shines the light of truth on mysticism.

Yes there is a reason you use the whole quote, or, better yet, a screen shot.

theologian - definition of theologian by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


Look at that, the stuff about Church Fathers you tried to pass of as a definition of theologian is actually a related word, not part of the definition. It doesn't even rise to the level of synonym. The reason we use entire quotes is so that, in context, we can show that the guy who prefers to misrepresent things is lying.

 

[Dante]

quantum got a hard - on!!! he caught a huggy!

 

[HUGGY]

quantum got a hard - on!!! he caught a huggy!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4pv8H03Xag&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLDD678E86C6ED8D93]Aaron Neville - Everybody Plays The Fool (with lyrics) - HD - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Katzndogz]

The only meaningful belief system is a belief in an omnipotent state. The state is all.

 

[HUGGY]

like I said, you need to get out more. Theologians and idiot preachers are different species.

"theologian - someone who is learned in theology or who speculates about theology
theologiser, theologist, theologizer
Church Father, Father of the Church, Father - (Christianity) any of about 70 theologians in the period from the 2nd to the 7th century whose writing established and confirmed official church doctrine; in the Roman Catholic Church some were later declared saints and became Doctor of the Church; the best known Latin Church Fathers are Ambrose, Augustine, Gregory the Great, and Jerome; those who wrote in Greek include Athanasius, Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom
Doctor of the Church, Doctor - (Roman Catholic Church) a title conferred on 33 saints who distinguished themselves through the orthodoxy of their theological teaching; "the Doctors of the Church greatly influenced Christian thought down to the late Middle Ages"
eschatologist - a theologian who specializes in eschatology
futurist - a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) will be fulfilled in the future
presentist - a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) are being fulfilled at the present time
preterist - a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) have already been fulfilled
bookman, scholar, scholarly person, student - a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines"


There is a reason why we are supposed to use the whole quote. Cherry picking and leaving out important references and saying lame insults based on your selective quotations isn't really what I would expect from you.

If you didn't understand my post..OK..that doesn't mean I need more air. As it is I get out quite a bit.

In the 14th and 15th centuries long before the printing press the Theologions were the gate keepers of scripture. They had huge power. "Idiot preachers" are clowns and fools by comparison. These days serious people take no advice from them. Today Rush Limbaugh carries more weight than any idiot preacher in the country. Back in the dark ages religion and the Theologions WERE the power brokers. My point being that science has pushed religion back into the churches and is driving a wooden stake slowly into it's heart. Some day the demons and fairies will all be dead. There is no other possibility as science shines the light of truth on mysticism.

Yes there is a reason you use the whole quote, or, better yet, a screen shot.

theologian - definition of theologian by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


Look at that, the stuff about Church Fathers you tried to pass of as a definition of theologian is actually a related word, not part of the definition. It doesn't even rise to the level of synonym. The reason we use entire quotes is so that, in context, we can show that the guy who prefers to misrepresent things is lying.

You are missing the forest for the trees.

True, I don't waste much of the limited time I have left on this earth reading things I don't find of interest any more. That doesn't mean I don't seek out knowledge.

I am interested in the "History of The Western Civilization" though and have spent hundreds of hours watching Eugene Webers presentations filmed at UCLA where he is/was a proffesor. I recommend it to anyone serious about knowing something about our history and how religion has affected that history. Weber's series "The Western Tradition" is as good as it gets in studying the developement of our civilization.







[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qDpYIECLt0]The Wars of Religion.mp4 [FULL] - YouTube[/ame]

 

[editec]

Ideas that resonate throughout society and over time are much like viruses.

Its a very good metaphor to describe how they exist in the world, really.

Like viruses, ideas need a HOST in which they can both live and through which they can reproduce to jump to still more hosts.

And much like virus, they morph over time and change to accomodate the needs of the hosts, too.

The most successful idea viruses survive precisely becuase they SERVE their hosts well or at very minimum they don't kill their hosts.

Even if there is no REAL collective consciousness, there are IDEAS that serve as a sort of real life example of something that seems rather like that collective consciousness.

 

[whitehall]

Thank God (no pun intended) the Founding Fathers had the foresight to guarantee freedom of religion in the "Bill of Rights" or left wing terrorists would be dozing Churches and Synagogues (but maybe not Mosques) as we speak.

 

[HUGGY]

Thank God (no pun intended) the Founding Fathers had the foresight to guarantee freedom of religion in the "Bill of Rights" or left wing terrorists would be dozing Churches and Synagogues (but maybe not Mosques) as we speak.

Where's a D8 when ya need one?????????????

 

[dblack]

Ideas that resonate throughout society and over time are much like viruses.

Its a very good metaphor to describe how they exist in the world, really.

Like viruses, ideas need a HOST in which they can both live and through which they can reproduce to jump to still more hosts.

And much like virus, they morph over time and change to accomodate the needs of the hosts, too.

The most successful idea viruses survive precisely becuase they SERVE their hosts well or at very minimum they don't kill their hosts.

Even if there is no REAL collective consciousness, there are IDEAS that serve as a sort of real life example of something that seems rather like that collective consciousness.

Exactly. And this line of inquiry raises the question: what is a "real" consciousness anyway, if not a cohesive set of self-perpetuating ideas?

 

[Katzndogz]

The Church of Big Government :: SteynOnline

The irrationalism of the hyper-rational state ought by now to be evident in everything from the euro-zone crisis to the latest CBO projections: The paradox of the Church of Big Government is that it weans people away from both the conventional family impulse and the traditional transcendent purpose necessary to sustain it. So what is the future of the American Catholic Church if it accepts the straitjacket of Obama's "freedom to worship"? North of the border, motoring around the once-Catholic bastion of Quebec, you'll pass every couple of miles one of the province's many, many churches, and invariably out front you'll see a prominent billboard bearing the slogan "Notre patrimoine religieux — c'est sacre!" "Our religious heritage — it's sacred!" Which translated from the statist code-speak means: "Our religious heritage — it's over!" But it's left every Quebec community with a lot of big, prominently positioned buildings, and not all of them can be, as Montreal's Saint-Jean de la Croix and Couvent de Marie Reparatrice were, converted into luxury three-quarter-million-dollar condos. So to prevent them from decaying into downtown eyesores, there's a government-funded program to preserve them as spiffy-looking husks.

The Obama administration's "freedom to worship" leads to the same soulless destination: a church whose moral teachings must be first subordinated to the caprices of the hyper-regulatory Leviathan, and then, as on the Continent, rendered incompatible with public office, and finally, as in that Southampton homeless shelter, hounded even from private utterance. This is the world the "social justice" bishops have made. What's left are hymns and stained glass, and then, in the emptiness, the mere echo: