Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops

[Rev.Hellh0und]

This is great news!


Trump is the first president in recent history not expanding or getting us into wars of choice. lefties should give him some credit here.

 

[zaangalewa]

Washington’s Nato ally.

Johann Wadephul, the deputy chair of the parliamentary group of Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU), described the withdrawal as a wake-up call

Damn Germans must have fallen asleep on the church pew during the sermon on Sunday. If a Christian nation like Germany can't come up with enough of its own Christian troops to fulfill its own Christian obligations under the EU Christian NATO thing, maybe they'll set up a tent and preach a revival meeting or something like that.

Weird.

 

[zaangalewa]

This is great news!


Trump is the first president in recent history not expanding or getting us into wars of choice. lefties should give him some credit here.

Trump makes not only everyone in the world to an enemy of the USA; this man knows in general only enemies. Trump is exclusively the president of loyal Trumpists, because there is only one important thing in the whole universe: Donald Trump. ... Then came a little virus with the name "SARS-CoV-2" and made with Trump, what Trump makes with everyone else in the world: it ignored Trump.

Dead US Americans in Vietnam in 1968: 16,589
Dead US Americans in the USA because of Corona in 2020: 142,066 and the year is not over yet.

 

[2aguy]

Should have done it after the USSR fell. In what reality is there going to be an invasion of Germany by the fuckin ruskies? The euroweenies can defend themselves at this point.

But...don't you get it? If Germany, and all the other European countries have to actually build up and maintain their own military forces.....army, navy, air forces...so they don't have to learn how to speak Russian....then how are they going to afford all of their welfare handouts and bad, free national healthcare systems? Just about every one of their national healthcare systems is in the red now.......if they have to pay for their national defense, they are going to go broke a lot faster......

Don't you get it?

 

[2aguy]

The Germans have been playing us for fools since the end of World War II. They are saving billions a year having us defend them from the non-existent Russian threat.

When we pull out, if Trump wins in November.....the Russian threat will become a lot more real.......and it will be a European problem......

We should also tell the Japanese to change their Constitution so they can rearm as well.....and get them nukes......nukes keep china from invading Japan.

 

[gipper]

The Germans have been playing us for fools since the end of World War II. They are saving billions a year having us defend them from the non-existent Russian threat.

When we pull out, if Trump wins in November.....the Russian threat will become a lot more real.......and it will be a European problem......

We should also tell the Japanese to change their Constitution so they can rearm as well.....and get them nukes......nukes keep china from invading Japan.

Russia is no threat to anyone. The Red Army of decades ago is long gone. Now they are nothing but a tiny military with a few planes and tanks. They don’t want war with NATO. They know they would get smoked. But, the Empire does need imagined enemies to keep the gravy train going that is the MIC. Amazingly, millions of Americans get duped.

 

[BigDave]

Donald Trump’s plans to withdraw roughly a third of the US troops stationed in Germany have been criticised in the country by conservatives and welcomed by leftwing politicians.

The US president has reportedly ordered the Pentagon to reduce the number of troops by 9,500 from the 34,500 permanently assigned in Germany as part of a long-standing arrangement with Washington’s Nato ally.

Johann Wadephul, the deputy chair of the parliamentary group of Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU), described the withdrawal as a wake-up call. “The plans show that the Trump administration is neglecting an elementary task of leadership, to bind coalition partners into decision-making processes,” he said.

“Everyone profits from the alliance sticking together, only Russia and China profit from discord. Washington should pay more attention to that.”

The leader of the parliamentary group of the leftwing party Die Linke welcomed the development. “The federal government should accept it with gratitude and promptly start preparing the complete withdrawal of US soldiers with the Trump administration,” said Dietmar Bartsch.

'Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops

Reduction of 9,500 personnel criticised by German right and welcomed by left

www.theguardian.com

This is an interesting development.

It's time Germany and the rest of Europe paid for her own defense and defended themselves. The responsibility of the US to defend Europe ended when the Cold War ended and the US should withdraw from NATO.

 

[zaangalewa]

...
But...don't you get it? If Germany, and all the other European countries have to actually build up and maintain their own military forces.....army, navy, air forces...so they don't have to learn how to speak Russian....then how are they going to afford all of their welfare handouts and bad, free national healthcare systems? Just about every one of their national healthcare systems is in the red now.......if they have to pay for their national defense, they are going to go broke a lot faster......

Don't you get it?

Let me start from the end: Most Germans agree with Donald Trump that it is a good idea to to reduce the US-forces in Germany. 32% do not agree (4% of them think more US-soldiers should be in Germany) - 47% agree (25% of them think all US-soldiers should leave Germany). 21% have no special opinion in this context. 66% of all Germans think the USA should pull out all nuclear weapons.

But the reasons for this disastrous bad image of the USA in Germany have absolutelly nothing to do with the stupid nonsense which Trump - but also many other Republicans and Democrats - say about Germany. One example in this context: In the year 2000 for example our military household was about 20 billion dollar - in 2020 our military household is now about 50 billion dollar. This means our military household grew in the last 20 years around 250%. And as a result of the current pandemic no reasonable human being thinks really seriosly about to increase in the next years a military household. What is such a step able to help against Corona and for a strong and more stable world economy?

 

[zaangalewa]

... It's time Germany and the rest of Europe paid for her own defense and defended themselves. The responsibility of the US to defend Europe ended when the Cold War ended and the US should withdraw from NATO.

And whatelse do you like to do without this shield?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops
⁜→ BigDave, zaangalewa, et al,

BLUF: I was once assigned to an element of the Allied Command Europe (ACE) (many Moons ago) and stationed at The Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE). And if you've ever been there, you will walk away with an understanding of the two perspectives of the Mission:

◈ The first being the maintenance of peace, security, and territorial integrity of the Members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).​

​

◈ The second being the preparation for, planning, and implementation of military operations in order to meet Alliance political objectives.​

They are not quite the same thing.

... It's time Germany and the rest of Europe paid for her own defense and defended themselves. The responsibility of the US to defend Europe ended when the Cold War ended and the US should withdraw from NATO.

And whatelse do you like to do without this shield?

(OBSERVATION)

It never stops amazing me how confused people are with this notion of the "Cold War" (proxy warfare) between the Superpowers of the day; and that being directly driving the mission of SHAPE.

Taking the former Soviet Union out of the equation does not alter the mission of NATO/SHAPE. In some cases, it only makes it more difficult to understand the consequences of those few events we can forecast.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[BigDave]

... It's time Germany and the rest of Europe paid for her own defense and defended themselves. The responsibility of the US to defend Europe ended when the Cold War ended and the US should withdraw from NATO.

And whatelse do you like to do without this shield?

Let Europe spend the same amount on the military that the US does and let them defend themselves

 

[zaangalewa]

... It's time Germany and the rest of Europe paid for her own defense and defended themselves. The responsibility of the US to defend Europe ended when the Cold War ended and the US should withdraw from NATO.

And whatelse do you like to do without this shield?

Let Europe spend the same amount on the military that the US does and let them defend themselves

And how do you like to "let Europe do" anything what you "think"? By making a typical ignorant, intrigant, arrogant and aggressive US-asshole to the president of the USA? And what do you think is the USA for other democracies? A role model or a cautionary example? By the way: I'm sure we are able to make you a good price for a scrap press for weapons and other superflous ballast.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops
⁜→ zaangalewa, et al,

BLUF: Yes, I am quite sure that many Europeans, including the German Citizens, will be glad (if not overwhelmingly delighted) to see America retreat from Central Europe and the Mediterranean.

When we examine the outlays made by the Europeans, you have to remember that the Armed Forces of Germany alone is over 60,000 strong. They already pay their way.

And how do you like to "let Europe do" anything what you "think"? By making a typical ignorant, intrigant, arrogant and aggressive US-asshole to the president of the USA? And what do you think is the USA for other democracies? A role model or a cautionary example? By the way: I'm sure we are able to make you a good price for a scrap press for weapons and other superflous ballast.

(COMMENT)

This is not the first time America, for economic reasons (as well as, the fact that our deployments were not appreciated or welcomed) considered a major withdrawal from Central Europe and the Mediterranean. When I was a young soldier in the Army, my only previous tour having been Vietnam (early to mid-1970's time frame) I was a witness to the events that followed the devaluation of the dollar (the ending of the gold standard in 1971). I watched as the US Dollar went from being the strongest currency in all the world to one of the weakest currencies. When the exchange rate dropped below 2 Marks to the Dollar, I can remember having to send my wife home because we could no longer afford to live in off-post housing and there was no more on-post housing to be had. The general feeling of the NCOs at the time, was it was time to go home → and let the Fulda Gap meet its fate on Germany's terms.

Although I did have to chuckle when, I think it was 1977 or 1978, the Army had a Noncombatant Evacuation Operations (NEO) and the training convoy's from places like Munich, Heidelberg, Baden-Württemberg, and Frankfurt were stopped by the Germany Police on the Autobahn. The Germans saw all these American civilians being taken to places like the Ports of Caen, Calais, and Rotterdam (the plan was just to get a training number on the road and then turn around and return to base). The Germans were asking questions → if the Americans knew something they didn't know and were evacuating before US and Soviet Ground Forces clashed. The Americans had pickup their go bags and went, not thinking twice about how the local national civilians in the region of the Central Army Group would react. I saw the Germans laughing at us in the wake of the US demise. I certainly didn't think twice about it. But I never again asked for a tour in Europe again, although that didn't work out for me either.

Now that time has come again. America and Europe face the question as to what further value is the US European Command (EUCOM). The reduction to 24,000 service members (Army, Navy, Air Force) is a token force.

In the 1970's, there was no question that America contributed the lions share to the defense of Europe. But that has not been true since the turn of the Century. We are rapidly becoming a minor power in the world, if we are not there already. The combined-component (Regular, NG, Reserves) strength is slightly more than a million soldiers worldwide.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[zaangalewa]

...

This is not the first time America, for economic reasons (as well as, the fact that our deployments were not appreciated or welcomed) considered a major withdrawal from Central Europe and the Mediterranean. When I was a young soldier in the Army, my only previous tour having been Vietnam (early to mid-1970's time frame) I was a witness to the events that followed the devaluation of the dollar (the ending of the gold standard in 1971). I watched as the US Dollar went from being the strongest currency in all the world to one of the weakest currencies. When the exchange rate dropped below 2 Marks to the Dollar, I can remember having to send my wife home because we could no longer afford to live in off-post housing and there was no more on-post housing to be had. The general feeling of the NCOs at the time, was it was time to go home → and let the Fulda Gap meet its fate on Germany's terms.

Although I did have to chuckle when, I think it was 1977 or 1978, the Army had a Noncombatant Evacuation Operations (NEO) and the training convoy's from places like Munich, Heidelberg, Baden-Württemberg, and Frankfurt were stopped by the Germany Police on the Autobahn. The Germans saw all these American civilians being taken to places like the Ports of Caen, Calais, and Rotterdam (the plan was just to get a training number on the road and then turn around and return to base). The Germans were asking questions → if the Americans knew something they didn't know and were evacuating before US and Soviet Ground Forces clashed. The Americans had pickup their go bags and went, not thinking twice about how the local national civilians in the region of the Central Army Group would react. I saw the Germans laughing at us in the wake of the US demise. I certainly didn't think twice about it. But I never again asked for a tour in Europe again, although that didn't work out for me either.

Now that time has come again. America and Europe face the question as to what further value is the US European Command (EUCOM). The reduction to 24,000 service members (Army, Navy, Air Force) is a token force.

In the 1970's, there was no question that America contributed the lions share to the defense of Europe.

But that has not been true since the turn of the Century. We are rapidly becoming a minor power in th world, if we are not there already. The combined-component (Regular, NG, Reserves) strength is slightly more than a million soldiers worldwide. ...

In case the Soviets had been able to conquer West-Germany in the 1970ies the Brits, France and the USA had made Germany to a nuclear hell. Everyone knew this. So what for heavens sake do you speak about, idiot? About the waste of money of the USA in the 1970ies?

Today the USA has an exorbitant high military household, which looks like the household of a military dictatorship - and not like the household of a democracy. And whatever Germany is doing or not doing - or what anyone else is doing or not doing in the world - your military household will not sink.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops
⁜→ zaangalewa, et al,

BLUF: Opposing View - We will have to disagree.

In case the Soviets had been able to conquer West-Germany in the 1970ies the Brits, France and the USA had made Germany to a nuclear hell. Everyone knew this. So what for heavens sake do you speak about, idiot? About the waste of money of the USA in the 1970ies?

(COMMENT)

In the 1970s, I spoke of the "economic" impacts on force utilization at the time. And at that time, the Central Army Group had the 5th and 7th (Light) Corps (one Division each in reserve in CONUS.

It is very doubtful that the US and Brits would grant nuclear release authority. The objective of the Allied Command was to "protect" Central Europe, not make a nuclear wasteland of it. That would have been counterproductive to the political objectives in the alliance.

Today the USA has an exorbitant high military household, which looks like the household of a military dictatorship - and not like the household of a democracy. And whatever Germany is doing or not doing - your
military household will not sink.

(COMMENT)

Who in the hell have you been talking to? The US is simply not even remotely close to a "Military Dictatorship." Washington has been known to relieve Flag and General Offices and block Pentagon Appoints for commentary opposing political and diplomatic decisions of the Washington Leadership.

Democrats blast appointment: Democrats on Sunday and Monday blasted Tata's appointment as circumventing the Senate's constitutional role to confirm nominees.

"If President Trump's goal is to hollow out, politicize, and undermine the Pentagon the way he has the State Department and Intelligence Community, then mission accomplished," Sen. Jack Reed (R.I.), the top Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, said in a statement. "This is an offensive, destabilizing move and General Tata should not be appointed to a Senate-confirmed position."​

SOURCE: See article on: thehill.com • Rebecca Kheel • 1 day ago

There is no such thing as a "military household" as you are implying here. Just look at what they did to LTG Mike Flynn. And while I have no trust or confidence in LTG Flynn (former National Security Advisor to the President and a former Assistant Director of National Intelligence) I don't think his pain is over yet.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[zaangalewa]

...

Who in the hell have you been talking to? The US is simply not even remotely close to a "Military Dictatorship."

Aha. So why do you waste so much money for weapons? And why speaks everyone in the USA - republicans as well as democrats - such a totally mad idiotic bullshit about Germany? What has Germany to do with the nonsense the USA is saying and doing?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops
⁜→ zaangalewa, et al,

BLUF: There is so much more to political, diplomatic, military, economic, and industrial relationships between states than just this one issue.

...
Who in the hell have you been talking to? The US is simply not even remotely close to a "Military Dictatorship."

Aha. So why do you waste so much money for weapons? And why speaks everyone in the USA - republicans as well as democrats - such a totally mad idiotic bullshit about Germany? What has Germany to do with the nonsense the USA is saying and doing?

(OBSERVATION)

In terms of the overall influence of the Federal Republic over the United States, - the FRG demonstrably higher in the Human Development Index (HDI) and its components. The FRG is tied with Hong Kong on the HDI in 4th place; whereas the US ranks 15th.

In terms of industrial influence, the US ranked 2nd in 2016 with an industrial output of $3.6 trillion; only surpassed by China which produced $4.6 trillion of industrial output. The FRG ranked 4th globally with an output totaled $1.1 trillion; nearly the same as Japan which ranked only marginally better with a total industrial output was $1.4 trillion for the same year. So (∑) China, the US, Japan, the FRG, are the world leaders with the Highest Industrial Outputs.

Globally the IT developer ranking of countries by tech skills - as measured by tests; places the FRG 10th and the US 26th.

(COMMENT)

While it is unlikely that the FRG will not be in a position to help America in the foreseeable future, the US has the capacity to damage the progress of the top nations in some of its absurd policies. The FRG wants to keep America close, for the time being, until it can out influence America in these critical areas.

How America comes to be in this losing position, is simply poor leadership at the top of the pyramid in government, business, and banking. But that is another story altogether.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[zaangalewa]

...

In terms of the overall influence of the Federal Republic over the United States, - the FRG demonstrably higher in the Human Development Index (HDI) and its components. The FRG is tied with Hong Kong on the HDI in 4th place; whereas the US ranks 15th.

In terms of industrial influence, the US ranked 2nd in 2016 with an industrial output of $3.6 trillion; only surpassed by China which produced $4.6 trillion of industrial output. The FRG ranked 4th globally with an output totaled $1.1 trillion; nearly the same as Japan which ranked only marginally better with a total industrial output was $1.4 trillion for the same year. So (∑) China, the US, Japan, the FRG, are the world leaders with the Highest Industrial Outputs.

And is this now good or bad?

Globally the IT developer ranking of countries by tech skills - as measured by tests; places the FRG 10th and the US 26th.

While it is unlikely that the FRG will not be in a position to help America in the foreseeable future,

I never will understand why so many people use the word "America" instead of USA. And sure we help the USA. We sell goods there. Machines for example, which their owners will use for productions, so they will make some money. We have factories on our own there. We invest money there. And 40% of all US-Americans have a German ancestor. And all US-Americans use ideas from the German world. Rockets for example. Cars for example. Computers for example. ...

the US has the capacity to damage the progress of the top nations in some of its absurd policies. The FRG wants to keep America close, for the time being, until it can out influence America in these critical areas.

How America comes to be in this losing position, is simply poor leadership at the top of the pyramid in government, business, and banking. But that is another story altogether.

Hmmm. .... I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. The USA has some self-made problems, which need solutions. Germany has problems too - but most problems here are not self-made problems. One of the political problems of Germany is now the USA, what's a novum.

Another problem is the situation of the world economy. We need a strong world economy. And the Corona-2 virus is problem too, but I am confident we will be able to held this virus under control, until we will have qualified vaccines against this virus and qualified medicaments. ...
By the way. This has also to do with the 2% NATO budget (What's in general a stupid idea too). We were on a good way to fulfill what we agreed with the USA under president Obama in context NATO: a 2% budget up to the year 2024. (Indeed we spoke only about a 1.5% budget up to this year as far as I heard)

Why your leading idiot and president attacked and attacks continuosly Germany never anyone will understand who is oriented in reality and facts. But this is anyway obsolete now, because of the current wordwide pandemic costs an unbelievable amount of money of the taxpayers and causes high public debts to stabalize economy. I don't think we will invest in the nearer future money for the defence of the USA.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops
⁜→ zaangalewa, et al,

BLUF: I have to appreciate your overall view.

...
In terms of the overall influence of the Federal Republic over the United States, - the FRG demonstrably higher in the Human Development Index (HDI) and its components. The FRG is tied with Hong Kong on the HDI in 4th place; whereas the US ranks 15th.

...Globally the IT developer ranking of countries by tech skills - as measured by tests; places the FRG 10th and the US 26th.
While it is unlikely that the FRG will not be in a position to help America in the foreseeable future,

And is this now good or bad?

(COMMENT)

These are a couple of very good indicators of development for the FRG. They show a trend for the FRG with arrows in a positive direction. No question.

And sure we help the USA.

(COMMENT)

As global trading partners, this again is positive. But I don't think that the FRG yet influences America to adopt policies and best practices that have worked so well for the FRG.

the US has the capacity to damage the progress of the top nations in some of its absurd policies. The FRG wants to keep America close, for the time being, until it can out influence America in these critical areas.

How America comes to be in this losing position, is simply poor leadership at the top of the pyramid in government, business, and banking. But that is another story altogether.

(COMMENT)

The poor leadership (Washington - inside the Beltway) at the top of the pyramid in government, as well as the business and banking (Wall Street) - • greedy principal governing and policymaking bodies of America, is a reality. Just in the last 20 years, America has had more than 50 financial institutions fail with lost assets equal to or greater than $10 Billion each. One bank (Washington Mutual of Seattle) lost over $300 Billion.

Hmmm. .... I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. The USA has some self-made problems, which need solutions. Germany has problems too - but most problems here are not self-made problems. One of the political problems of Germany is now the USA, what's a novum.

(COMMENT)

It is not a "conspiracy theory." Simply the outcome and consequences of both political and business decisions. It is the quick buck syndrome of today's leaders with law degrees and MBAs. It is the American politicians that make decisions in their own best interest. A Congressional Representative makes in the neighborhood of $200K a year. But many have a net worth of approaching $100 Million.

Another problem is the situation of the world economy. We need a strong world economy. And the Corona-2 virus is problem too, but I am confident we will be able to held this virus under control, until we will have qualified vaccines against this virus and qualified medicaments. ...
By the way.

(COMMENT)

I don't have any answers on the world economy. But then, neither do most governments.

The solution to the COVID-19 is slow in the making. America has some of the most advanced and wealthy pharmaceutical companies in the world. I did not see US leadership commandeering research facilities to work in common cause on the virus solution.

This has also to do with the 2% NATO budget (What's in general a stupid idea too).

(COMMENT)

I'm not sure how they derived the 2% figure. But it certainly does not sound unreasonable for a common defense.

I don't think we will invest in the nearer future money for the defence of the USA.

(COMMENT)

I don't think America would ever expect any nation, let alone any NATO Member, to jump to America's aid without some sort of compensation. America usually pays it own way.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[zaangalewa]

...

Whatever the USA finds good or bad or expects or not expects from Germany or anyone else is for me personally meanwhile totally unimportant. Produce a vaccine against the Corona-2 virus for the USA only and be happy with the new US-American way of life to fight against everyone and everything what is not USA. Leave the NATO. Bring all your soldiers wordwide home in your paradise and be happy in your wonderful perfectly walled country.