Refutation of "African slave trade"

[syrenn]

And your point is?

The point is any white person whether from America or Europe who use the derailment argument fail to acknowledge or refuses to acknowledge that Whites controlling the Transatlantic slave trade which enslaved 12 million people in 400 years (yet likes to highlight slavery elsewhere in the world) is an attempt at excusing one evil for another. As I've seen here and offline a lot of whites I've discussed slavery with tend to use this argument which is relatively similar to how an eight year old responds when stealing a cookie. There is a failure to own up to an evil and typically this failure is followed ip by excuses.

Bush did it?

i beg your pardon


Bushmen did it!

 

[ScienceRocks]

If it wasn't for the white man putting an end to it, you can bet slavery would still be a global level institution. Of course Mr.idiot doesn't think of that.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The point is any white person whether from America or Europe who use the derailment argument fail to acknowledge or refuses to acknowledge that Whites controlling the Transatlantic slave trade which enslaved 12 million people in 400 years (yet likes to highlight slavery elsewhere in the world) is an attempt at excusing one evil for another. As I've seen here and offline a lot of whites I've discussed slavery with tend to use this argument which is relatively similar to how an eight year old responds when stealing a cookie. There is a failure to own up to an evil and typically this failure is followed ip by excuses.

Now that I have your attention. Maybe you will now answer the question I posed on another thread. One that you ignored.

What priviliges do I (as a white man) have that you don't have.

And please be specific.


BTW I haven't seen many whites trying to make that argument.

Do you know what percentage of slaves were brought to the "New World"?

You'd be surprised.

Wtong thread pose your question in PM.

This was the second time I asked. I was ignored the first time and now your dodging it.

If you can't answer it. Just admit it.

 

[Swagger]

Aristotle, your first mistake was to assume that I harbour any "guilt" over the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. I don't, and neither, I imagine, do any of the blacks who live in nations thats prosperity was built on slavery, because they directly benefit from the economic advantage slavery provided, in that they benefit and are afforded the protection of the advanced infrastructure provided by the fruits of slavery and other means of exploitation. But having said that, the West's real headstart came in the form of industrialisation, which relied on machines, not humans. I'm not saying that slavery didn't play a part in the West's ascendancy, but the notion that our advantage over others is purely a result of slavery if both false and offensive.

In any event, slavery wasn't - and isn't - exclusive to whites. It's a morally offensive practice that's been employed by all known civilisations. Europeans, through the technological benefits of being in a near-constant state of war, simply exploited their technological advantage over conquered territories by transporting a commodity every race has taken advantage of to the other side of the world. But all slave trading nations and empires have distanced their human property from its native land, as it increases the slave's dependence on their captor/owner.

 

[Meathead]

Guilt-peddling got Obama elected in 2008, but I think it 's becoming a very hard sell anymore.

 

[rightwinger]

When Ali, then Cassius Clay, Jr., won the light heavy weight championship in the Olympic games in Rome in 1960, he called himself the prettiest, the fastest, the greatest. Then, as if to undermine Ali’s self-concept and obviously strike a blow for Communism, a Soviet journalist questioned Ali about racial segregation in America. His response was, "Tell your readers we’ve got qualified people working on that, and I’m not worried about the outcome. To me, the U.S.A. is still the best country in the world including yours. It may be hard to get something to eat sometimes, but anyhow, I ain’t fighting alligators and living in a mud hut."
Robert Lipsyte, "Free to be Muhammad Ali," , p. 3

Cassius Clay was 21. His views on Americas treatment of blacks would soon change.....Significantly

 

[NoNukes]

When Ali, then Cassius Clay, Jr., won the light heavy weight championship in the Olympic games in Rome in 1960, he called himself the prettiest, the fastest, the greatest. Then, as if to undermine Ali’s self-concept and obviously strike a blow for Communism, a Soviet journalist questioned Ali about racial segregation in America. His response was, "Tell your readers we’ve got qualified people working on that, and I’m not worried about the outcome. To me, the U.S.A. is still the best country in the world including yours. It may be hard to get something to eat sometimes, but anyhow, I ain’t fighting alligators and living in a mud hut."
Robert Lipsyte, "Free to be Muhammad Ali," , p. 3

Cassius Clay was 21. His views on Americas treatment of blacks would soon change.....Significantly

Logic and knowledge would have to be present for this to matter.

Your thought was the first thing that came to me when I read it.

 

[PoliticalChic]

When Ali, then Cassius Clay, Jr., won the light heavy weight championship in the Olympic games in Rome in 1960, he called himself the prettiest, the fastest, the greatest. Then, as if to undermine Ali’s self-concept and obviously strike a blow for Communism, a Soviet journalist questioned Ali about racial segregation in America. His response was, "Tell your readers we’ve got qualified people working on that, and I’m not worried about the outcome. To me, the U.S.A. is still the best country in the world including yours. It may be hard to get something to eat sometimes, but anyhow, I ain’t fighting alligators and living in a mud hut."
Robert Lipsyte, "Free to be Muhammad Ali," , p. 3

Cassius Clay was 21. His views on Americas treatment of blacks would soon change.....Significantly

Sure glad that you are ready to speak up about the racism exhibited when it comes to black conservatives, no subtly necessary: they tell all that blacks are stupid, unqualified, and oversexed.

a. Democrat Harry Reid called Thomas "an embarrassment to the Supreme Court" whose "opinions are poorly written," and said he hadn't "done a good job" as a justice. But Antonin Scalia? Well, Reid said, he's a different story. Scalia, Reid told Tim, "is one smart guy." Racism Doesn't Always have a Southern Drawl - Crossroads - CBS News


b. “… (Democrat) President Bill Clinton argued that Colin Powell, promoted to brigadier general during Mr. Alexander’s tenure, was the product of an affirmative action program.” http://cdn.virtuallearningcourses.com/ivtcontent/images/edw12_ch05_e.pdf


c. “When Bush made Condoleezza Rice the first black female secretary of state, terror swept through the Democratic Party. What if people began to notice and ask questions: "Who's that black woman always standing with George Bush?" Never mind! He's probably arresting her. In addition to an explosion of racist cartoons portraying Rice as Aunt Jemima, Butterfly McQueen from "Gone With the Wind," a fat-lipped Bush parrot and other racist cliches, allegedly respectable liberals promptly called her stupid and incompetent. Joseph Cirincione, then with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said Rice "doesn't bring much experience or knowledge of the world to this position." (Unlike Hillary Clinton, whose experience for the job consisted of being married to an impeached, disbarred former president.) Ann Coulter - November 2, 2011 - WHY OUR BLACKS ARE BETTER THAN THEIR BLACKS


d. And, of course, but Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain were slandered with racist stereotypes. “"In the eyes of the liberal media, Herman Cain is just another uppity black American who has had the audacity to leave the liberal plantation. So they must destroy him, just as they tried destroying Clarence Thomas," wrote Brent Bozell of the Media Research Center.” Conservatives compare Cain to Clarence Thomas

The above from chapter 16, "Mugged," Coulter


So....we're on the same side, this time?

 

[rightwinger]

When Ali, then Cassius Clay, Jr., won the light heavy weight championship in the Olympic games in Rome in 1960, he called himself the prettiest, the fastest, the greatest. Then, as if to undermine Ali’s self-concept and obviously strike a blow for Communism, a Soviet journalist questioned Ali about racial segregation in America. His response was, "Tell your readers we’ve got qualified people working on that, and I’m not worried about the outcome. To me, the U.S.A. is still the best country in the world including yours. It may be hard to get something to eat sometimes, but anyhow, I ain’t fighting alligators and living in a mud hut."
Robert Lipsyte, "Free to be Muhammad Ali," , p. 3

Cassius Clay was 21. His views on Americas treatment of blacks would soon change.....Significantly

Sure glad that you are ready to speak up about the racism exhibited when it comes to black conservatives, no subtly necessary: they tell all that blacks are stupid, unqualified, and oversexed.

a. Democrat Harry Reid called Thomas "an embarrassment to the Supreme Court" whose "opinions are poorly written," and said he hadn't "done a good job" as a justice. But Antonin Scalia? Well, Reid said, he's a different story. Scalia, Reid told Tim, "is one smart guy." Racism Doesn't Always have a Southern Drawl - Crossroads - CBS News


b. “… (Democrat) President Bill Clinton argued that Colin Powell, promoted to brigadier general during Mr. Alexander’s tenure, was the product of an affirmative action program.” http://cdn.virtuallearningcourses.com/ivtcontent/images/edw12_ch05_e.pdf


c. “When Bush made Condoleezza Rice the first black female secretary of state, terror swept through the Democratic Party. What if people began to notice and ask questions: "Who's that black woman always standing with George Bush?" Never mind! He's probably arresting her. In addition to an explosion of racist cartoons portraying Rice as Aunt Jemima, Butterfly McQueen from "Gone With the Wind," a fat-lipped Bush parrot and other racist cliches, allegedly respectable liberals promptly called her stupid and incompetent. Joseph Cirincione, then with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said Rice "doesn't bring much experience or knowledge of the world to this position." (Unlike Hillary Clinton, whose experience for the job consisted of being married to an impeached, disbarred former president.) Ann Coulter - November 2, 2011 - WHY OUR BLACKS ARE BETTER THAN THEIR BLACKS


d. And, of course, but Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain were slandered with racist stereotypes. “"In the eyes of the liberal media, Herman Cain is just another uppity black American who has had the audacity to leave the liberal plantation. So they must destroy him, just as they tried destroying Clarence Thomas," wrote Brent Bozell of the Media Research Center.” Conservatives compare Cain to Clarence Thomas

The above from chapter 16, "Mugged," Coulter


So....we're on the same side, this time?

Which has nothing to do with the Cassius Clay quote or slavery

Do you ever actually read what you are responding to?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Cassius Clay was 21. His views on Americas treatment of blacks would soon change.....Significantly

Sure glad that you are ready to speak up about the racism exhibited when it comes to black conservatives, no subtly necessary: they tell all that blacks are stupid, unqualified, and oversexed.

a. Democrat Harry Reid called Thomas "an embarrassment to the Supreme Court" whose "opinions are poorly written," and said he hadn't "done a good job" as a justice. But Antonin Scalia? Well, Reid said, he's a different story. Scalia, Reid told Tim, "is one smart guy." Racism Doesn't Always have a Southern Drawl - Crossroads - CBS News


b. “… (Democrat) President Bill Clinton argued that Colin Powell, promoted to brigadier general during Mr. Alexander’s tenure, was the product of an affirmative action program.” http://cdn.virtuallearningcourses.com/ivtcontent/images/edw12_ch05_e.pdf


c. “When Bush made Condoleezza Rice the first black female secretary of state, terror swept through the Democratic Party. What if people began to notice and ask questions: "Who's that black woman always standing with George Bush?" Never mind! He's probably arresting her. In addition to an explosion of racist cartoons portraying Rice as Aunt Jemima, Butterfly McQueen from "Gone With the Wind," a fat-lipped Bush parrot and other racist cliches, allegedly respectable liberals promptly called her stupid and incompetent. Joseph Cirincione, then with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said Rice "doesn't bring much experience or knowledge of the world to this position." (Unlike Hillary Clinton, whose experience for the job consisted of being married to an impeached, disbarred former president.) Ann Coulter - November 2, 2011 - WHY OUR BLACKS ARE BETTER THAN THEIR BLACKS


d. And, of course, but Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain were slandered with racist stereotypes. “"In the eyes of the liberal media, Herman Cain is just another uppity black American who has had the audacity to leave the liberal plantation. So they must destroy him, just as they tried destroying Clarence Thomas," wrote Brent Bozell of the Media Research Center.” Conservatives compare Cain to Clarence Thomas

The above from chapter 16, "Mugged," Coulter


So....we're on the same side, this time?

Which has nothing to do with the Cassius Clay quote or slavery

Do you ever actually read what you are responding to?

Poor, poor, old timer.....

...it saddens me to watch you deteriorate before my very eyes!!!

Watch carefully: "His views on Americas treatment of blacks..."


Know who wrote that?
Very good! Right....it was you.


So...it's really amusing when you write "Do you ever actually read what you are responding to?"
Get the joke? The joke is you!



Now, based on your condition, I better point out exactly what has happened.

See, when you wrote "His views on Americas treatment of blacks..," I refined your reference to 'American black conservatives.'
Get it now?


Good.

But, in reality, we both know that your petulance is due to the fact that it's Democrats who were spotlighted....

...true?

 

[Aristotle]

For those of you bugging about how do you have "white privilege" This brief essay sums it up:

"white skin privilege is a transparent preference for whiteness that saturates our society. White skin privilege serves several functions. First, it provides white people with “perks” that we do not earn and that people of color do not enjoy. Second, it creates real advantages for us. White people are immune to a lot of challenges. Finally, white privilege shapes the world in which we live — the way that we navigate and interact with one another and with the world."

White Privilege: The Perks

White people receive all kinds of perks as a function of their skin privilege. Consider the following:
• When I cut my finger and go to my school or office’s first aid kit, the flesh-colored band-aid generally matches my skin tone.
• When I stay in a hotel, the complimentary shampoo generally works with the texture of my hair.
• When I run to the store to buy pantyhose at the last minute, the ‘nude’ color generally appears nude on my legs.
• When I buy hair care products in a grocery store or drug store, my shampoos and conditioners are in the aisle and section labeled ‘hair care’ and not in a separate section for ‘ethnic products.’
• I can purchase travel size bottles of my hair care products at most grocery or drug stores.

My father, who has worked in economic development for 30 years, would explain away these examples of white privilege as simple functions of supply and demand economics. White people still constitute the numerical majority in this country, so it makes sense, for example, that bandaid companies would manufacture “flesh-tone” bandages for white people.

White Privilege: The Advantages

Certainly, white privilege is not limited to perks like band aids and hair care products. The second function of white skin privilege is that it creates significant advantages for white people. There are scores of things that I, as a white person, generally do not encounter, have to deal with or even recognize. For example:
• My skin color does not work against me in terms of how people perceive my financial responsibility, style of dress, public speaking skills, or job performance.
• People do not assume that I got where I am professionally because of my race (or because of affirmative action programs).
• Store security personnel or law enforcement officers do not harass me, pull me over or follow me because of my race.

All of these things are things that I never think about. And when the tables are turned and my white skin is used against me, I am greatly offended (and indignant). The police department in my community, like so many other law enforcement agencies throughout this country, uses policing tactics that target people of color. Two years ago, I was driving down Rosa Parks Boulevard, a street that runs through an all-black and impoverished area of town, at night. I was looking for a house that I had never been to before, so I was driving slowly, stopping and moving as I searched for numbers on residences.

Out of nowhere, this large police van pulled me over, blue lights flashing and sirens blaring, and a handful of well-armed police officers jumped out of the van and surrounded my car. I did as I was told, and got out of my car. (“Hands above your head; move slowly!&#8221 I then succumbed to a quick physical pat-down, as well as a search of my car. The officers had pulled me over -- not only because of my erratic driving -- but also, because, in the words of one officer, I was “a white woman driving down Rosa Parks after dark.” They thought I was looking to buy drugs.

White Privilege: The World View
The third thing that white privilege does is shape the way in which we view the world and the way in which the world views us. The perks and advantages described above are part of this phenomenon, but not all of it. Consider the following:
• When I am told about our national heritage or “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
• Related, the schools that I attend or have attended use standard textbooks, which widely reflect people of my color and their contributions to the world.
• When I look at the national currency or see photographs of monuments on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., I see people of my race widely represented and celebrated.

White privilege is a hidden and transparent preference that is often difficult to address. Only on closer inspection do we see how it creates a sense of entitlement, generates perks and advantages for white people and elevates our status in the world."

Reference: On Racism and White Privilege | Teaching Tolerance

WHO WOULD'VE THOUGHT, A WHITE PERSON WROTE THIS.....

 

[Aristotle]

If it wasn't for the white man putting an end to it, you can bet slavery would still be a global level institution. Of course Mr.idiot doesn't think of that.

White people didn't end slavery, who sold you this lie? Oh wait, are you going to use the Abraham Lincoln argument? Or the abolitionist argument?

 

[Aristotle]

Now that I have your attention. Maybe you will now answer the question I posed on another thread. One that you ignored.

What priviliges do I (as a white man) have that you don't have.

And please be specific.


BTW I haven't seen many whites trying to make that argument.

Do you know what percentage of slaves were brought to the "New World"?

You'd be surprised.

Wtong thread pose your question in PM.

This was the second time I asked. I was ignored the first time and now your dodging it.

If you can't answer it. Just admit it.

See my post regarding white privilege in the above...A white person wrote it. It's perhaps the best response I could give you.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Like I said,

Who treated blacks good? Blacks couldn't defend their own ******* continent . Why, damn if I know. It was a world that onlly the strongest had any "freedom".

 

[Quantum Windbag]

When discussing the history of slavery from Africa to the North America, the most common argument brought up is that Africans sold their own into slavery. It is not disputed that during the early 1600's (and earlier) slavery was a common commodity throughout Africa and the middle east. But what is most intriguing to me, is that in discussing slavery it appears that in hiding the guilt of the atrocities of slavery, many times people (mostly Caucasians) like to deflect this fact by stating that other cultures had slaves to.

As one had called it "The arab trade argument" in which when one argues that slavery happened elsewhere in the world, "it excuses an evil of one's own past by finding the same sort of evil done by others. Whites sold slaves, but Africans and Arab traders did too!" Which one may make the comparison of such to that of an eight-year old who may steal cookie from a cookie jar, but when busted the child says "well Jimmy did it too" one evil is not excusab;le by another evil.

However those who use the African selling their own argument fail to realize that in doing so, they are derailing the fact that in history the Transatlantic slave trade was the biggest most economical (and racist) aspect of Caucasian history when it comes to building their economic revenue off other human beings. The main purpose of using this derailing argument is to take attention away from what whites did by turning the tables. The part of slavery in Caucasian history and to those that benefited from it, makes Whites uncomfortable. But instead of facing up to it, many have built a defense against it:

-Africans sold their own
Africans still selling slaves
-Arab traders sold slaves
All races practiced slavery
-Whites stopped slavery
-My family never owned slaves
-Slavery was the past
-Blacks are living in the past
-Get over it
-Whites got to where they are because of hard work
-Blacks are better off here than in Africa
-Africans were savages

And so on....

One of the fact that many proponents of this view forget to state was that in the times of the transatlantic slave trade most of the african countries did not sell slaves nor was it a common practice in West Africa. Folks forget that the transatlantic slave trade was on a much larger scale. Overy 12 million were sold into slavery in less than 400 years, something so large that it changed the "genetic map of the world."

Umm, what? Are you trying to say that there were no Africans involved in the African slave trade? Can you explain how European and Arab traders managed to gather those millions of slaves without eradicating the population of coastal Africa?

 

[syrenn]

my what a big chip that is on your shoulder aristotle .....

 

[ScienceRocks]

It was the white man that ended slavery. Yep, the very people that you hate the most are the only ones to make constitutions demanding all human beings to be treated equally. I swear, you people can't think through things. No wonder your entire population was enslaved.

Who's to blame??? I'd say you're for being a weak people within a violent soulless world.

Demanding a free meal ticket from the people that gave you the chance. Is kind of dishonorable.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The major misconception is to think any other thing than slavery was accepted throughout the world in the 16th century. The only reason the Triangular Trade was primarily a 'Caucasian deal' was that they held all three ends of the triangle. It was not because of race, it was because of geography and power. Any and all other races were envious, is all, at the time.

 

[Aristotle]

Aristotle, your first mistake was to assume that I harbour any "guilt" over the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. I don't, and neither, I imagine, do any of the blacks who live in nations thats prosperity was built on slavery, because they directly benefit from the economic advantage slavery provided, in that they benefit and are afforded the protection of the advanced infrastructure provided by the fruits of slavery and other means of exploitation. But having said that, the West's real headstart came in the form of industrialisation, which relied on machines, not humans. I'm not saying that slavery didn't play a part in the West's ascendancy, but the notion that our advantage over others is purely a result of slavery if both false and offensive.

In any event, slavery wasn't - and isn't - exclusive to whites. It's a morally offensive practice that's been employed by all known civilisations. Europeans, through the technological benefits of being in a near-constant state of war, simply exploited their technological advantage over conquered territories by transporting a commodity every race has taken advantage of to the other side of the world. But all slave trading nations and empires have distanced their human property from its native land, as it increases the slave's dependence on their captor/owner.

Speaking of mistakes, the first mistake you made in the beginning of your sentence was that the OP was to draw out guilt. No. The basis at which I created the OP was to refute the idea of African slavery and that the mentioning of slavery in other parts of the world is not an excuse to omit what happen in the states. I assume you didn't read the first page and my comments, and that is ok.

The problem when whites and blacks dialogue and discuss slavery is that it is a common statement that "Africans sold slaves too." As mentioned earlier, slavery was not a common practice in the history of Africa. Sure, Egyptians owned slaves and sure, parts in west Africa there were tribes that had slaves. Difference between slavery in the parts of Africa and American slavery was that the slavery that existed in Africa was that slavery that was practiced in Africa was about collection of the "spoils of war." Captured enemies were traded for other items. In addition the Transatlantic slave trade was not just about economic growth it was commercialized racism. At least in Africa a slave can get their "freedom bought back." In the United States this was not so. Slaves in America were not allowed to read or write. Freed slaves were hunted down and killed. Even freed slaves that fought for the union were still not treated as citizens throughout the establishment of the colonies. Anyway, I don't meant to preach to the choir, but my point is there are obvious differences in practice.

This is why I called it the derailment argument. Nobody is denying slavery existing in other parts of the world, but the point is despite it existing in other parts of the world the fact of the matter is there is no acknowledgment that racism as it was practiced in America was horrible. I'm not talking about capturing enemies and putting them to work for free. I'm talking about having whole families, raping the women, establishing race charts to demonstrate the importance of skin tone. These are things that were establish by whites here in the United States and such things need to be confronted. Sure, there are many whites that will discuss the issues of slavery in the U.S without having to resort into excusing one evil by mentioning another, this is where we can come into agreement.

Because according to U.S history, slavery wasn't about enslaving humans, it was a systemic development of dehumanizing, demoralizing millions of human beings into devaluing their culture, in order to force them to acclimate to another. We are talking about slavery, which a people losing their true heritage. So the OP is addressing those whites that believe in order to dialogue on American slavery they feel, there is a need to address global slavery. The point here is not about what the rest of the world did its about its development

 

[Aristotle]

The major misconception is to think any other thing than slavery was accepted throughout the world in the 16th century. The only reason the Triangular Trade was primarily a 'Caucasian deal' was that they held all three ends of the triangle. It was not because of race, it was because of geography and power. Any and all other races were envious, is all, at the time.

"To justify the slave trade its supporters dehumanised the African race, used as slaves, hence they were called "Black cattle". This led to Africans being thought of as an inferior race, the consequences of which can still be seen in acts of racism today.



Initially the colonial settlers did not distinguish between work that should be done by whites, blacks or Indians. Labour was not demarcated by racial divides. The sugar plantation and the arrival of large numbers of African slaves into the colonies soon changed that however, work came to be divided on racial grounds: only blacks should undertake certain work. Slaves in the Americas were unlike slaves in most previous slave societies, for they were characterised by colour. They were black slaves. In the process, it came to be assumed, in the mind of slave owners (later in the conventions of local society, subsequently in law and legal systems), that slave work could only be done by black people. Conversely, here was work which white people should not undertake. The slave plantations of the Americas brought into being a new language and mentality of race which was utterly unique and which was to survive the death of slavery itself. Racism had been born."

Reference: Garstang Fairtrade Town