Reducing the National Debt

[merrill]

Right now, the United States spends $7,129 per capita on health care—more than twice as much per capita as the rest of the industrialized world.

While other industrialized nations like Canada and Sweden provide comprehensive coverage to their entire populations, the United States leaves 47 million completely uninsured and tens of millions more inadequately covered.

 

[Contumacious]

Reducing the National Debt......

....or eliminating the same in its entirety by voting for Ron Paul.

.

 

[merrill]

Reducing the National Debt......

....or eliminating the same in its entirety by voting for Ron Paul.

.

No way jose'. Ron Paul cannot do anything without congressional approval. No president can. Rhetoric is meaningless.

Debt can work. Depending on how money is spent.

 

[Bern80]

Complete debt reduction is unthinkable and simply not necessary IF our tax dollars are being invested in the USA and NOT squandered on preferential tax breaks.

I agree we don't have to have zero debt, but it has to be manageable debt

AS I stated Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs is the key to new economic growth,new wealth for the nation as a whole and to reasonable debt reduction.

Except you're being slightly dishonest here. It isn't really jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs that you want. It's more tax revenue, more tax revenue, more tax revenue. And that entirely misses the boat. Our government spends too much AND on things the fed has no business spending money on. Spending needs to be cut back so that those that are working can keep more of their money to spend to grow the economy.

1. Do like other nations that have our jobs = provide health insurance to all

Do you want to be like other nations like France that routinely run huge defecits as a result?

2. Spend tax dollars to invest in the USA = new industry = new jobs = new economic growth

The government can not create jobs. Not in any way that actually helps anyway. People have to want what you're producing and have the ability to buy it for jobs to be created. If such a market existed such that there was money to be made and jobs to be created as a result, someone would already have done it.

3. Stop using new housing starts as a measure of the economy

I would basically agree with that.

4. Invest in education absolutely!

If I give you $50 are you any smarter than before I gave you $50?

5. Stop bailing out banks and mismanaged industrials

Agree

6. Throw politicians in jail for breaking laws = good for the economy

Agree, but not sure how that's going to have any positive impact on the economy.

7. Terminate corporate funding of all our elections

Possibly agree

8. Immediately begin work on the interstate highway infrastructure

Again government jobs are a zero sum game. Look at the idea. Government wants to put money in people's pockets to boost the economy. They figure the best way to do that is to create a job fixing a hwy. The problem is to put the money into the pocket of the person fixing the hwy, they have to take it out of the pocket of someone else in the private sector. Government jobs are a zero net effect on the economy.

9. Tighten home buying guidelines

Meaning what exactly? How is it any of the government's business how an individual chooses to pay for their home?

10. Bring on all forms of new energy = new jobs and new manufacturing opportunities

They will be brought on when they become economically viable. Until they are profitable they will have to be subsidized (E85 is heavily subisidized for example and can not compete on its own) to make them competitive and as result will have no real benefit to the economy and even if and when it does become economically viable, it is unreasonable to think that it will have any measurable positive effect on the environment.

 

[merrill]

BTW I stand by all of the below! And who is telling anyone that new energy sources are not economically viable? The existing few currently controlling our energy = misinformation.

Complete debt reduction is unthinkable and simply not necessary IF our tax dollars are being invested in the USA and NOT squandered on preferential tax breaks.


AS I stated Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs is the key to new economic growth,new wealth for the nation as a whole and to reasonable debt reduction.

A variety of avenues need to be put in place... YES!

1. Do like other nations that have our jobs = provide health insurance to all

2. Spend tax dollars to invest in the USA = new industry = new jobs = new economic growth

3. Stop using new housing starts as a measure of the economy

4. Invest in education absolutely!

5. Stop bailing out banks and mismanaged industrials

6. Throw politicians in jail for breaking laws = good for the economy

7. Terminate corporate funding of all our elections

8. Immediately begin work on the interstate highway infrastructure ( FIX THE HIGHWAY SYSTEM - taxpayers own the highway system it is reckless and fiscally irresponsible not to maintain such a valuable investment)


9. Tighten home buying guidelines ( AND ENFORCE THEM TO PREVENT FURTHER REPUB HOME LOAN FRAUDS THAT WRECK THE ECONOMY)

10. Bring on all forms of new energy = new jobs and new manufacturing opportunities

 

[ilia25]

Do you want to be like other nations like France that routinely run huge defecits as a result?

Or like Sweden, or Denmark? Many European countries have smaller debt and deficits that US and still manage to provide universal healthcare, education for poor kids and so on. They just collect more taxes on rich, and that's all there is to it.

 

[Wolfstrike]

reducing the debt has been done before.

FDR's debt was 120% of GDP.
it was reduced during Eisenhower's admin
ours is currently 100%

 

[editec]

I think this is a good intro to the issue: google "Nobody Understands Debt", look for Krugman's article in NY Times.

Money is a man-made convenience.

Most of us understand that money only has value only if we collectively agree to give it value

But most people who hate fiat money still think of DEBT as somehow being more real than the money that debt is counted in.

Here's a thought...if the money is only something of value as we agree to make it, then how is that debt (that ALSO represents money) MORE real than the fiat money it is counted in?

Consider this...where did all these trillions (either the money or the debts counted in money) actually come from?

This accounting is an invention...an agreed upon convenience. The entire economic system ALL came out of the thin air of a SOCIAL CONTRACT.

Money is FIAT, the gold bugs claim and they're absolutely right

But guess what, kids?

The economy itself is FIAT. It too is nothing but a convenience, a contrivance, all part of the social contract we agree to play by.

The debt?

The debt is as FIAT as the money, kids.

It isn't the numbers on the ledgers that are real, it's is the social contract that invented those numbers that we've agreed is real.

Well guess what?

The people can change that social contract.

Unpayable debts will NOT be paid if by doing so we destroy the society that sustains that fiction (that fiction that we call money).

 

[Rozman]

Trying to even get a handle on the magnitude of the ND is a real challenge. Most of us, I think, can't even get what $16,000,000,000,000 (did I get it right) really is.

It's a number that defies comprehension.

From here down all numbers are approximate.(and many probably wrong - remember I'm just a retired working stiff)

The debt is NOW more than 100% of GDP. A number most said just a short time ago would put Greece into default. Many believe that the ND should be no more than 70% of GDP.

Let's start there. 70% would be about $11 trillion. So let's look at what it would take to get there.

Our current deficit is running 1.4 -1.5 trillion a year. To get the ND down to we'd have to generate an annual surplus of 100 billion a year for 50 years. That would require a turn around of 1.5 - 1.6 trillion a year.

Of course the task is aggravated by several very significant issues.

• Current interest of Fed notes is about 1/2 of 1 % - The average is about 5%. At that rate the interest would be 100 billion a year more that would have to be added to the 1.5 trillion turn around number (sheesh I'm getting out of breath)
• Taking more than 2 trillion out of the economy would create a loss in federal revenue of (about) 200 billion?? - we'll have to add THAT to the turn around number
• And many more I'm sure the fertile minds on the forum will add

I got lost somewhere in the second paragraph so y'all help me out here!

Well if we re elect Obama I'm sure Paul Krugman will recommend that we do a HUGE
Stimulus Plan...one that will send a message to the evil Republicans that the last one was nothing compared to the one we should do now....

We just need to spend our worries away!!!

 

[Rozman]

This is on the horizon my friends....
We are facing the edge of a cliff here and are about to go over.
I am positive that the government will someday nationalize our retirement accounts.
They will take the money from us.
They will decide how much we will be able to call ours.
They will take the rest and spend it on the national debt but probably will not.
They will dole out our money with a monthly check when we retire.

After all the government knows what's best for us and who better then them
with spending our money.

Nationalized retirement accounts: The coming confiscation of the retirement savings of the middle class « The PPJ Gazette

Hungary, Ireland and others snatch retirement accounts is California next? - San Diego County Political Buzz | Examiner.com

Europe continues nationalizing private pensions, DC has considered for US - National Christianity & Politics | Examiner.com

 

[editec]

This is on the horizon my friends....
We are facing the edge of a cliff here and are about to go over.
I am positive that the government will someday nationalize our retirement accounts.
They will take the money from us.
They will decide how much we will be able to call ours.
They will take the rest and spend it on the national debt but probably will not.
They will dole out our money with a monthly check when we retire.

After all the government knows what's best for us and who better then them
with spending our money.

Nationalized retirement accounts: The coming confiscation of the retirement savings of the middle class « The PPJ Gazette

Hungary, Ireland and others snatch retirement accounts is California next? - San Diego County Political Buzz | Examiner.com

Europe continues nationalizing private pensions, DC has considered for US - National Christianity & Politics | Examiner.com

Your fears are fully justified no matter which party takes power.

The government is ALREADY taking our money from us and giving it to their cronnys.

It does this regardless of which party controls the oval office, and regardless of which party controls congress.

 

[Rozman]

Seems we the people are gonna get really screwed.
And it's gonna happen sooner then we realize.

 

[Bern80]

BTW I stand by all of the below! And who is telling anyone that new energy sources are not economically viable? The existing few currently controlling our energy = misinformation.

Complete debt reduction is unthinkable and simply not necessary IF our tax dollars are being invested in the USA and NOT squandered on preferential tax breaks.


AS I stated Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs Jobs is the key to new economic growth,new wealth for the nation as a whole and to reasonable debt reduction.

A variety of avenues need to be put in place... YES!

1. Do like other nations that have our jobs = provide health insurance to all

2. Spend tax dollars to invest in the USA = new industry = new jobs = new economic growth

3. Stop using new housing starts as a measure of the economy

4. Invest in education absolutely!

5. Stop bailing out banks and mismanaged industrials

6. Throw politicians in jail for breaking laws = good for the economy

7. Terminate corporate funding of all our elections

8. Immediately begin work on the interstate highway infrastructure ( FIX THE HIGHWAY SYSTEM - taxpayers own the highway system it is reckless and fiscally irresponsible not to maintain such a valuable investment)


9. Tighten home buying guidelines ( AND ENFORCE THEM TO PREVENT FURTHER REPUB HOME LOAN FRAUDS THAT WRECK THE ECONOMY)

10. Bring on all forms of new energy = new jobs and new manufacturing opportunities

Stand by it all you want. Ignoring the criticism of some of those ideas and posting them a second time doesn't make it any more credible.

 

[Bern80]

I think this is a good intro to the issue: google "Nobody Understands Debt", look for Krugman's article in NY Times.

Money is a man-made convenience.

Most of us understand that money only has value only if we collectively agree to give it value

But most people who hate fiat money still think of DEBT as somehow being more real than the money that debt is counted in.

Here's a thought...if the money is only something of value as we agree to make it, then how is that debt (that ALSO represents money) MORE real than the fiat money it is counted in?

Consider this...where did all these trillions (either the money or the debts counted in money) actually come from?

This accounting is an invention...an agreed upon convenience. The entire economic system ALL came out of the thin air of a SOCIAL CONTRACT.

Money is FIAT, the gold bugs claim and they're absolutely right

But guess what, kids?

The economy itself is FIAT. It too is nothing but a convenience, a contrivance, all part of the social contract we agree to play by.

The debt?

The debt is as FIAT as the money, kids.

It isn't the numbers on the ledgers that are real, it's is the social contract that invented those numbers that we've agreed is real.

Well guess what?

The people can change that social contract.

Unpayable debts will NOT be paid if by doing so we destroy the society that sustains that fiction (that fiction that we call money).

I see where you're going and we could do that. The problem I see is that you can't have it both ways. If you say we aren't honoring our debt because we're not honoring the social contract then you would also have to say our currency is not real either. You can't make the debt disappear without making the currency that represents it disappear as well? What is your plan than for new means of exchange? Barter? Create a new curency based on the same social contract?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Stand by it all you want. Ignoring the criticism of some of those ideas and posting them a second time doesn't make it any more credible.

2nd time? Its about all he ever posts.

You responded to the guy that says a family of 4 cannot get by on anything less than $72,800/yr - really, there's no reason to take him seriously.

 

[Bern80]

Stand by it all you want. Ignoring the criticism of some of those ideas and posting them a second time doesn't make it any more credible.

2nd time? Its about all he ever posts.

You responded to the guy that says a family of 4 cannot get by on anything less than $72,800/yr - really, there's no reason to take him seriously.

So what if he's right (and he might actually be close)? Regardless of what the number is, it doesn't change the fact that it isn't anyone's responsibility other than the head(s) of household to provide that.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Stand by it all you want. Ignoring the criticism of some of those ideas and posting them a second time doesn't make it any more credible.

2nd time? Its about all he ever posts.

You responded to the guy that says a family of 4 cannot get by on anything less than $72,800/yr - really, there's no reason to take him seriously.

So what if he's right (and he might actually be close)? Regardless of what the number is, it doesing change the fact that it is anyone's responsibility other than the head(s) of household to provide that.

Well, that's true - I was simply commenting on how far someone's head had to be in their ass in order to make such a claim.