Questions on Decriminalization/Legalization movement

[Disir]

Now, it's a "friendly neighborhood dealer"...........a little closer to cutting the bullshit. Yet, still carries that used car dealer smell.

But don’t fully follow you Disir! What do you mean by “cutting the bullshit”? I want to make pot legal because (1) locking up people for smoking a plant that can’t physically hurt you is ridiculous and destroys lives, (2) our country is hurting for jobs/new industries and this could serve as a MAJOR way to kick start the economy in many areas.

What’s “bullshit” about that?

What kind of penalties will happen for those caught dealing without a license? Because that will be hurting somebodies cash flow.

The same ones a bar would face for selling liquor without a liquor license.

Bars are businesses that could be shut down or lose their licenses. These would be corporations writing legislation. Just like the privatized prisons that write legislation to increase the prison population.

They aren't going to prison for smoking a joint on the porch. Now, you can go to jail for smoking a joint on the porch depending on where you live but you aren't going to prison for it.


Cutting the bullshit. Don't dress it up with a bunch of feel good bullshit. You changed dealers. It's about tapping the cash and not about improving the economy or putting Americans back to work in these tough times.

 

[Harry Dresden]

"Very few" means "none" and "not very" means "not". Having no withdrawal symptoms (euphemized as "very few") kinda seals the deal. Stop trying to stretch, Harry.

And we have a word for "mental addiction": habit. Anything can be a habit; coffee in the morning, taking a certain route to a destination, watching football, posting on this board. That doesn't make any of them "addictions".

Feel free to post any evidence at all of cannabis inducing nausea, "GI problems" and the like. Talk is cheap.

Pogo....its from Psychology today.....i know you think im brilliant,but i did not write the article....and a "habit" is mental....is it not?....

Well why did you post it then? Without a link I might add... of course a habit is mental. That's my point; addiction is physical. You're trying to fit an addiction peg into a habit hole. It won't work.

And yes, I know you're brilliant. That's why I wanted to put you back on track here.

a physical addiction is different than a mental one......

 

[Harry Dresden]

The thing is potheads are too drug addled to understand what principles are.

The best thing to happen to them is an accident in the back of a patrol car.

"The thing is alcoholics are too drug addled to understand what principles are".

You see how this is a pointless and vague generalization?

An alcoholic can sober up. The damage that pot does is permanent.

geezus.....why dont you go and get in a thread your better at.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

It's obvious that some folks on this thread got their information about marijuana from watching "Reefer Madness"

Reminds of what Reagan said (paraphrase) It's not that they don't know anything - it's just that they know so many things that aren't true.

But pot CAN be addictive - for some folks - It's a psychological addiction, not a physical addiction. But if we criminalized everything that someone could develop a psychological addiction to, EVERYONE would be in jail.

For underage folks, pot is easier to get than alcohol. Black market drug dealers don't ask for ID. Legalizing it and drying up the black market will actually make it a lot harder for kids to get their hands on.

you mean like Katz?....that movie was made for people like her....

 

[Disir]

Either way, it won't end the gangbanging crap either as marijuana is bulky and not usually worth the time so we can drop the pretense of that as well.

Do you realize that marijuana sales makes up well over HALF of the overall cartel/street gang revenue? Do you know how extraordinarily significant that is?

Imagine a company the size of General Electric had a product that made up half of its revenue and you were to instantly take it away overnight. You don’t think this will have a significant effect on the power, influence, presence of the company? Sure, you can say “well they’ll just sell their other products more” but the fact of the matter is they’re really never going to get back to the levels they once were at with their prized product now out of their portfolio.

Heroin. Snort-able heroin.
Heroin Pushed on Chicago by Cartel Fueling Gang Murders - Bloomberg

Sometimes the posts move so quickly that I have no idea that something else was written. So, it might take a quick minute to respond to whatever you originally wrote.

 

[Katzndogz]

Herein isn't what the cartels are moving toward. They are gravitating to express kidnappings. It's replacing pot as a product and they don't even have to have a product. The overhead is much lower. Grab someone off the street. Take them to the nearest atm. Get the max. Move on.

 

[FA_Q2]

Either way, it won't end the gangbanging crap either as marijuana is bulky and not usually worth the time so we can drop the pretense of that as well.

Do you realize that marijuana sales makes up well over HALF of the overall cartel/street gang revenue? Do you know how extraordinarily significant that is?

Imagine a company the size of General Electric had a product that made up half of its revenue and you were to instantly take it away overnight. You don’t think this will have a significant effect on the power, influence, presence of the company? Sure, you can say “well they’ll just sell their other products more” but the fact of the matter is they’re really never going to get back to the levels they once were at with their prized product now out of their portfolio.

Heroin. Snort-able heroin.
Heroin Pushed on Chicago by Cartel Fueling Gang Murders - Bloomberg

Sometimes the posts move so quickly that I have no idea that something else was written. So, it might take a quick minute to respond to whatever you originally wrote.

Whats your point here though? That they have other products? Of course they do.

Is the demand for those products going to suddenly increase if pot is made legal? No. There will still be crack and heroine users but the MJ revenue of criminal enterprises will disappear entirely and that business is not going to come back. Then the product can actually and effectively be regulated.

 

[FA_Q2]

Now, it's a "friendly neighborhood dealer"...........a little closer to cutting the bullshit. Yet, still carries that used car dealer smell.

But don’t fully follow you Disir! What do you mean by “cutting the bullshit”? I want to make pot legal because (1) locking up people for smoking a plant that can’t physically hurt you is ridiculous and destroys lives, (2) our country is hurting for jobs/new industries and this could serve as a MAJOR way to kick start the economy in many areas.

What’s “bullshit” about that?

What kind of penalties will happen for those caught dealing without a license? Because that will be hurting somebodies cash flow.

The same ones a bar would face for selling liquor without a liquor license.

Bars are businesses that could be shut down or lose their licenses. These would be corporations writing legislation. Just like the privatized prisons that write legislation to increase the prison population.

They aren't going to prison for smoking a joint on the porch. Now, you can go to jail for smoking a joint on the porch depending on where you live but you aren't going to prison for it.


Cutting the bullshit. Don't dress it up with a bunch of feel good bullshit. You changed dealers. It's about tapping the cash and not about improving the economy or putting Americans back to work in these tough times.

And that is different than Anheuser-Busch how? The parallel with alcohol and MJ are extremely close. We are better off without prohibition and we will be better off without the same for MJ. The historical proof is already there.


It’s not about tapping the cash either btw. It is about not allowing the government to control all the asinine decisions that a person can make. It is about addressing the ACTUAL problems that drug abuse brings – something that prisons do not do but rather exacerbate the problems. It is about real regulation on drugs rather than illegalization that leads to dangerous and unknown products. It is about removing the various other infringements on our rights that come along with a failed war against personal actions. It is about removing the dealers and the crime that they perpetuate. It is about securing a border that is mainly breached with murderous drug runners who will rape and kill at will. In short, it is about restoring basic freedoms and sanity to a failed system.

 

[Disir]

But don’t fully follow you Disir! What do you mean by “cutting the bullshit”? I want to make pot legal because (1) locking up people for smoking a plant that can’t physically hurt you is ridiculous and destroys lives, (2) our country is hurting for jobs/new industries and this could serve as a MAJOR way to kick start the economy in many areas.

What’s “bullshit” about that?




The same ones a bar would face for selling liquor without a liquor license.

Bars are businesses that could be shut down or lose their licenses. These would be corporations writing legislation. Just like the privatized prisons that write legislation to increase the prison population.

They aren't going to prison for smoking a joint on the porch. Now, you can go to jail for smoking a joint on the porch depending on where you live but you aren't going to prison for it.


Cutting the bullshit. Don't dress it up with a bunch of feel good bullshit. You changed dealers. It's about tapping the cash and not about improving the economy or putting Americans back to work in these tough times.

And that is different than Anheuser-Busch how? The parallel with alcohol and MJ are extremely close. We are better off without prohibition and we will be better off without the same for MJ. The historical proof is already there.


It’s not about tapping the cash either btw. It is about not allowing the government to control all the asinine decisions that a person can make. It is about addressing the ACTUAL problems that drug abuse brings – something that prisons do not do but rather exacerbate the problems. It is about real regulation on drugs rather than illegalization that leads to dangerous and unknown products. It is about removing the various other infringements on our rights that come along with a failed war against personal actions. It is about removing the dealers and the crime that they perpetuate. It is about securing a border that is mainly breached with murderous drug runners who will rape and kill at will. In short, it is about restoring basic freedoms and sanity to a failed system.

It's all about the cash. At no point in time have the actual problems been addressed and there is a reason for that. Again. It's all about the cash. Morality can be bought 2 for a dollar at your local 7-11. State rights my ass. If you don't change it at the federal level then it can be taken away at any time. Last time I checked federal law supersedes state law.
So, since you have no intention of reading what I wrote earlier and every day is a brand new day let's recap.

First, the black market is going to exist because the street has better quality and a lower price and in places such as Colorado---you can buy it after 7PM. Quality and price have been a primary ***** since this started. And where was one of the sources in January off the street in Colorado? Grown in Nebraska.

Territory. So, what's the problem with a couple of corporations that are involved? Well, as we have seen from your pals at ALEC they have a tendency to write the legislation. Just like they do in places like Arizona where the privatized prisons profit off of inmates. It's just business, right? And these corporations are different, right? Tell me how those six plants grown at home are going to impact business. Tell me what the repercussions are going to be for those that are popped for dealing without a license. Tell me you care just as much about those folks going to prison as you did in using them to justify passing it. You know, the whole destroy lives thingy? Kind of like how at the very same time there is a desperate attempt to attach a morality in buying from the dispensaries because it's not attached to violence.

What did Al Capone actually go down for? Tax evasion.

Your cartels aren't the violence. Listen to what they are telling you. Violence is useful to teach someone a lesson but it's really bad for business as a full time gig and if it was all about the cartels there wouldn't be violence across the border. Marijuana is bulky and here and there is fine but it's not worth the risk by the time it hits here. It isn't the be all that it's made out to be. Marijuana is not the cause of violence with the gang bangers. So, we can cut the shit there. But your right, they do morph. But, if we focus on the cartels then any marijuana that would come from them wouldn't impact the businesses. Won't do a damn thing about the violence but it would be great for business in the states--unless the source is coming from what's grown in the states.

Even in the article provided, the violence is not from the cartel. The cartel provides the drug. It's like blaming a cartel for the gangbanging in the 90s.

But, I haven't heard too many opposition arguments either. If people were really concerned with addiction then they would start looking into what works and what doesn't. AA/NA isn't too damn successful. The 12 step programs are a billion dollar industry and they don't have to keep records beyond 3 months and if there are failures that are recognized then it's because of the individual. There's no comparison into the research. There is no comparison made between countries. Nothing. Nobody even bothers to mention dual diagnosis.

So, lets cut the shit on how this is a problem solver. It's not. Let's not pretend that this is going to impact the cartels. It's not. Let's not pretend that there is any actual caring involved in whom will be going to prison. It isn't there. Let's not pretend that this is actually going to rid the violence. It won't. It's about cash.

Meanwhile, the problems persist.

 

[nodoginnafight]

The serpentine arguments against the legalization of pot wither away under close scrutiny.

It's going to happen. Some states will lag behind but eventually it will be legal in all 50. It is inevitable. Once some people enjoy a freedom, others demand it. Colorado and Washington started the ball rolling and I just don't think you are going to be able to get that toothpaste back into the tube.

 

[Disir]

The serpentine arguments against the legalization of pot wither away under close scrutiny.

It's going to happen. Some states will lag behind but eventually it will be legal in all 50. It is inevitable. Once some people enjoy a freedom, others demand it. Colorado and Washington started the ball rolling and I just don't think you are going to be able to get that toothpaste back into the tube.

It's the bullshit that pisses me off. It's the pretense that doesn't solve a damn thing.

 

[nodoginnafight]

The serpentine arguments against the legalization of pot wither away under close scrutiny.

It's going to happen. Some states will lag behind but eventually it will be legal in all 50. It is inevitable. Once some people enjoy a freedom, others demand it. Colorado and Washington started the ball rolling and I just don't think you are going to be able to get that toothpaste back into the tube.

It's the bullshit that pisses me off. It's the pretense that doesn't solve a damn thing.

Just by legalizing it - we can cut the number of people in federal prison by about 27,000. That helps solve quite a bit right there.

(Numbers from the Federal Bureau of Prisons)
http://www.ussc.gov/Data_and_Statis...cing_Updates/USSC_2013_Quarter_Report_4th.pdf

 

[Delta4Embassy]

1. Are there any groups pushing for Decriminalization of Marijuana which EMPHASIZE the need to address drug abuse, addiction, and crime AS A PRIORITY
and DON'T DENY or playdown the dangers and addictions associated with marijuana use?

I agree with decriminalization but have been continually disappointed
in not finding groups willing to push solid plans to replace it with.

I see plenty of people making arguments AGAINST the problems,
but I wanted to collaborate on SOLUTIONS.

2. Is there any Candidate or Leader pushing for criminal justice reform
to free up funds to support a State or Party system of covering health care?

This can be any angle, from decriminalization to save state resources, or replacing the death penalty, or managing work programs that don't abuse prison labor but cover costs of prisons.

I was very excited to find a group called RAMP - Republicans Against Marijuana Prohibition.
But was disappointed there wasn't enough push to replace ACA with other means of funding more effective health care to address simultaneous issues.

Is this just too much to combine problems under one solution? Are groups just better off addressing criminal reform, health reform, and immigration reform SEPARATELY?

I thought it was more like a Rubik's cube where you can't solve one side of the puzzle without solving all of them. Is there any group, leader or proposed solution offering to resolve several issues at once, or is that too much for people to process?

Just wondering if I'm the weird one here, the oddball out who can't seem to
separate the trees from the forest. thanks for any referrals. I feel lost in the woods, if anyone can point me in the right direction!

Considering all that's achieved making things illegal is a strengthening of criminal enterprises now getting another source of income supplying what you just banned, making it legal with no afterthought at all might not be ideal, but it's better than keeping it illegal.

As to cannabis, it isn't addictive in the sense that other drugs are like heroin. There's no physical dependency or withdrawl from cannabis. Only addiction is psychological, and we can become psychologically addicted to anything including water. So worrying about that aspect is misplaced.

Biggest problem with decriminalizing something long illegal is much of the law enforcement business is now benefitting from the illegality of it. Making a big drug like cannabis legal all of a sudden is taking the legs out from under DEA, and most local law enforcement agencies who get x amount of funding to combat illegal drugs, and in terms of percentage most of that effort is likely against cannabis. If they don't fight cannabis anymore, they're probably going to loose the funding given to do that. If not locking people up in prison for cannabis crimes, the prison industry too suffers. Isn't then just about doing the right thing, but crippling a big part of the economy.

 

[Disir]

The serpentine arguments against the legalization of pot wither away under close scrutiny.

It's going to happen. Some states will lag behind but eventually it will be legal in all 50. It is inevitable. Once some people enjoy a freedom, others demand it. Colorado and Washington started the ball rolling and I just don't think you are going to be able to get that toothpaste back into the tube.

It's the bullshit that pisses me off. It's the pretense that doesn't solve a damn thing.

Just by legalizing it - we can cut the number of people in federal prison by about 27,000. That helps solve quite a bit right there.

(Numbers from the Federal Bureau of Prisons)
http://www.ussc.gov/Data_and_Statis...cing_Updates/USSC_2013_Quarter_Report_4th.pdf

Are we planning on using all drugs to make the point of one drug? Are we distinguishing between trafficking and simple possession?

Again. It's the bullshit factor. There are a boatload of people that just want to smoke a couple blunts a day in their home, wearing underwear and eating a bowl of Captain Crunch and playing video games. They don't care what argument is proposed as long as that's what they can do. 'Fess up and say so.

The other group of people saw a whole bunch of money and wanted to get their cut. Throw spaghetti at the wall arguments. Talk about how it's the problem solver when it's not. 'Fess up and say so.

Both camps whip out medicinal use when it's convenient. That is a different type of category.

 

[nodoginnafight]

It's the bullshit that pisses me off. It's the pretense that doesn't solve a damn thing.

Just by legalizing it - we can cut the number of people in federal prison by about 27,000. That helps solve quite a bit right there.

(Numbers from the Federal Bureau of Prisons)
http://www.ussc.gov/Data_and_Statis...cing_Updates/USSC_2013_Quarter_Report_4th.pdf

Are we planning on using all drugs to make the point of one drug? Are we distinguishing between trafficking and simple possession?

Again. It's the bullshit factor. There are a boatload of people that just want to smoke a couple blunts a day in their home, wearing underwear and eating a bowl of Captain Crunch and playing video games. They don't care what argument is proposed as long as that's what they can do. 'Fess up and say so.

The other group of people saw a whole bunch of money and wanted to get their cut. Throw spaghetti at the wall arguments. Talk about how it's the problem solver when it's not. 'Fess up and say so.

Both camps whip out medicinal use when it's convenient. That is a different type of category.

That's just pot statistics. And if pot is legal then there wouldn't be any trafficking issues either.

I have no idea what you're talking about with the whole Captain Crunch thing - and it really doesn't matter to me. Personally, I don't think any breakfast cereal is an integral part of the conversation.

I don't smoke pot. But I don't think that gives me the right to say no one should. There is no legitimate reason to expend the resources we are currently expending on enforcing pot laws - it's just stupid. And I stand in opposition to spending my tax dollars stupidly.

 

[KevinWestern]

Cutting the bullshit. Don't dress it up with a bunch of feel good bullshit. You changed dealers. It's about tapping the cash and not about improving the economy or putting Americans back to work in these tough times.

Disir, I completely disagree.

The old model was people in Mexico - for example - growing marijuana and then shipping it to the US through networks of criminals.

New model is law-abiding citizens (in Colorado, for example) growing marijana here in the US, shipping it through actual US companies, selling it in actual US stores, and making money that stays here instead of getting filtered back to the cartels across the border!

How on Earth can you assert this isn't about "improving the economy" and "putting Americans back to work"???!!

 

[KevinWestern]

Are we planning on using all drugs to make the point of one drug? Are we distinguishing between trafficking and simple possession?

Again. It's the bullshit factor. There are a boatload of people that just want to smoke a couple blunts a day in their home, wearing underwear and eating a bowl of Captain Crunch and playing video games. They don't care what argument is proposed as long as that's what they can do. 'Fess up and say so.

The other group of people saw a whole bunch of money and wanted to get their cut. Throw spaghetti at the wall arguments. Talk about how it's the problem solver when it's not. 'Fess up and say so.

Both camps whip out medicinal use when it's convenient. That is a different type of category.

Who the heck cares if people want a cut? I don't understand your point.

 

[emilynghiem]

Pogo....its from Psychology today.....i know you think im brilliant,but i did not write the article....and a "habit" is mental....is it not?....

Well why did you post it then? Without a link I might add... of course a habit is mental. That's my point; addiction is physical. You're trying to fit an addiction peg into a habit hole. It won't work.

And yes, I know you're brilliant. That's why I wanted to put you back on track here.

a physical addiction is different than a mental one......

10 Common Marijuana Addiction Symptoms

Dear Pogo and HD:
I looked up some sites on dealing with addiction.

There is some physical effect due to factors of
(a) increased tolerance to the effects of MJ, so that greater or more frequent uses
are needed the more it is use and the more tolerant a person becomes.
(b) psychological dependence on MJ to relax or escape
instead of confronting and dealing with issues directly

(a) seems clearly more physical or chemical in nature
(b) seems more psychological

With people's discomfort or "withdrawal symptoms" of trying to quit using MJ,
it seems reasonable that both levels are affected, physical and psychological.

When it comes to chemical changes in the brain, this overlaps with both
psychological and physical because the chemicals are actually physical.

So yes, repeat use of MJ over time does change the physical brain chemistry
and tolerance levels. This is felt psychologically, but that doesn't mean it isn't physical also.
The brain involves both.

1. Tolerance

The very first of many marijuana addiction symptoms that becomes evident is tolerance. When an individual smokes pot, at first it may only take a few puffs and he or she will feel the effects. After a couple of times of using the drug, it will take more and more in order to feel those same effects. In time, the user smokes more pot, more often and feels less of the effects—this is tolerance and it’s also the first real sign of marijuana addiction.

2. Withdrawal

Anytime there is a physical drug addiction present, withdrawal symptoms are a possibility. If you begin to experience symptoms of marijuana withdrawal when you don’t smoke pot, such as insomnia, anxiety or a loss of appetite, then there’s a very good chance that addiction has already set in. Physically, these symptoms will subside in about two weeks if you quit smoking pot all together.

3. Loss of Control Over Marijuana Use

If you have tried to cut back, tried to smoke less and even told yourself or someone else that you wouldn’t smoke so much pot and then later went against your intentions—this could be a sign of marijuana addiction. Symptoms such as a loss of control over intended use are common in many types of addiction, including addiction to weed.

4. Spending too much time Getting High

Are you or is someone you love spending the majority of their time getting high? One of the more common marijuana addiction symptoms focuses on the amount of time that is spent getting high. If you are taking time away from other activities, spending time away from family or friends or otherwise spending time getting high rather than doing things that you once loved, there’s a good chance that addiction is a problem in your life.

5. Choosing Friendships based on Drug Activity

Do you choose your friends based on whether or not they smoke pot? Are you spending less time with friends who don’t smoke weed and more time with those who do? As marijuana addiction progresses and the real damage begins to set in you may realize that you are spending more time trying to hang out around others who take part in similar drug use activity and less time around those who (though probably would have better relationships with you) do not do drugs.

6. Smoking Weed to Relax

At the end of the day, do you have to smoke a joint in order to calm down? If you or a loved one turns to weed consistently as a means of relaxation and seemingly cannot relax without pot, there could be a more prevalent problem present with marijuana addiction. Symptoms such as this often persist and, contrary to common belief, marijuana does not actually relax, sooth or calm. In fact, the Office of National Drug Control Policy confirms that marijuana does not promote relaxation but actually increases violent crimes.

7. Lack of Responsibility

Do you stop taking care of your daily responsibilities when you smoke pot? If smoking weed has interrupted your ability to handle daily activities such as going to school or performing well at work, there may be a bigger problem. Another one of the more common marijuana addiction symptoms relates to the lack of productivity or responsibility that comes when an individual focuses too much attention on smoking pot and not enough attention on attending to regular responsibilities.

8. Getting High Despite Known Consequences

Have you suffered consequences as a result of getting high? If you have already suffered consequences and you know very well that smoking pot will continue to cause problems in your life, yet you still smoke weed anyway, you might be addicted. Marijuana addiction can lead you to do things that you otherwise may not do, such as getting high despite the fact that you know it is causing problems in your life.

9. Smoking Pot to Escape Reality

Marijuana use as a means of escaping reality is a sure sign of addiction. If you feel like you have to smoke pot in order to cope with work, school, home or your family, addiction is likely an issue in your life. Drugs should never be used as a method of escaping reality or to cover up what is really going on.

10. Trying to Cut Down—And Failing

Finally, one of the well-known marijuana addiction symptoms is making attempts to cut down on the level of marijuana usage and failing. If you lie to yourself about the amount of pot you will consume or you have told other people such as those you love that you will not smoke so much and then you still do, addiction is a problem.

 

[nodoginnafight]

10 Common Marijuana Addiction Symptoms

This site does not present science to support the existence of a physical addiction to marijuana. It lists symptoms and assumes the addiction.

Not surprising since these people make their living by treating marijuana "addiction."

I'm not saying that what they claim is positively false - I am saying that I would like to see the science ... and not from an organization that has a financial interest in the results.

 

[emilynghiem]

Considering all that's achieved making things illegal is a strengthening of criminal enterprises now getting another source of income supplying what you just banned, making it legal with no afterthought at all might not be ideal, but it's better than keeping it illegal.

As to cannabis, it isn't addictive in the sense that other drugs are like heroin. There's no physical dependency or withdrawl from cannabis. Only addiction is psychological, and we can become psychologically addicted to anything including water. So worrying about that aspect is misplaced.

Biggest problem with decriminalizing something long illegal is much of the law enforcement business is now benefitting from the illegality of it. Making a big drug like cannabis legal all of a sudden is taking the legs out from under DEA, and most local law enforcement agencies who get x amount of funding to combat illegal drugs, and in terms of percentage most of that effort is likely against cannabis. If they don't fight cannabis anymore, they're probably going to loose the funding given to do that. If not locking people up in prison for cannabis crimes, the prison industry too suffers. Isn't then just about doing the right thing, but crippling a big part of the economy.[/QUOTE]

Dear D4E:
A. the approach taken by law students working as a team with the Baker Institute on policy research is to identify ALL areas that would be impacted by changes in the laws.

I believe that is the best approach to reform, to show that all areas are being addressed; instead of dumping everything on the govt to police under the system we have now.

I believe the reforms needed will inevitable change the core of our prison system from retributive to restorative justice to focus on preventative and corrective measures based on medical, health and mental health treatment and services. We need this anyway for health care reforms and also immigration reforms.

It looks like all of us here will pick certain issues and angles to focus on, so the solutions will need to address ALL of these to win public support. There are people and politicians out there like K&D, or like KevinW, me and others; so if these arguments do not connect with K&D, we need to find what DOES solve those objections.

I align with Disir and K7D about "not denying the dangers/addictions/denial" associated with marijuana use. Whether that is an issue "in itself" or an issue for WHY there isn't public consensus on this, it STILL needs to be addressed and resolved. At the very least, it will stop unnecessary division so we can unite on solutions to correct the current system.

I posted a list and link from a site on addiction to marijuana, including withdrawal.

Because use of MJ increases "tolerance levels", that is partially a physical change causing addiction. People need more to induce the same effect.

I would say THAT part is clearly physical.

For the other levels of addiction, they are so mixed in with the psychological, you'd have to test to see how much is physically in the brain as a chemical change, but I would suspect it is embedded physically as well. it is clearly psychological addiction as well, so I see no point in arguing since we AGREE it is addiction.

The other two levels I would point out are
* addiction to using MJ to "relax or escape" instead of resolving things by conscious choices and changes in thinking, without depending on the use of an external substance (which does alter the brain chemistry and can be counted as a physical alteration as well)

* denial or rejection of norms, rules or any beliefs or justifications that contradict, impose on or inconvenience on one's own rationalization or justification of using MJ

This part is so tied in with the POLITICAL environment of illegalizing or criminalizing drugs,
it seems impossible to separate that "external factor" from psychological or physical levels. More studies could be done to show how much is actually "chemical changes in the brain" (physically embedded), psychological only, or how much comes from the externally-induced political situation that creates the "denial or paranoia" issues associated with MJ.

I am guessing it is a combination of all 3 levels, and that is what someone faces when trying to quit using. All three levels need to be resolved to return to a state that does not rely on using MJ to bypass, turn off, or manipulate the disturbing or distressing dissonance.

In any case, even if part of the addiction/withdrawal issues are induced by POLITICAL conflict over being illegal and having to constantly override additional dissonance that would not be there if it were legalized, or is "only psychological addiction" BOTH these levels do induce PHYSICAL and CHEMICAL changes in the brain. So it does become PHYSICAL also.

Again i don't think we need to argue if effects on brain chemistry counts as
"psychological or physical." the phenomena and process of overcoming MJ use still follows the same patterns as recovery from other addictions, so at least we can agree on that.

You can argue "day and night" that the factors such as "lack of responsibility" and "paranoia or inability to relax" were part of a "preexisting condition" in the person's personality (or caused externally by the political environment of avoiding dissonance over being treated as a criminal against one's beliefs) and are not directly related or caused by marijuana itself.

Either way, that still makes it harder to break through the denial part of the addiction.
And if the denial is reinforced over time, yes, the psychological addiction and denial does manifest as physical changes in the brain chemistry.