Question

[catzmeow]

Dear Deltex,

Thank you for your thoughtful and well-reasoned contribution to the thread. i'm sure we've all been enlightened by it.

 

[catzmeow]

And sometimes on these boards and in politics "being poor" is treated as some noble status that simply strikes people through no fault or error of their own doing. I have known some scammers, cheats, liars and frauds who are "poor" and fully enjoy the assumption by the bleeding hearts that all poor should be helped because well...er...um..they are poor!

Bunk. Get to know some "poor" who are laughing at the system. I have.

You know what those poor women need to force them into a sense of responsibility? A baby. That'll learn them.

When I was younger I had chances to have sex that I passed on because I had no birth control at the time.

Why can't poor people do the same? see it's about CHOICE. "Gee, I can't afford a child right now, hell I can't even afford a condom, so maybe I should CHOOSE not to have sex"

How hard is that?

You're trying to justify giving people something that they need for an activity that they can live without.

An activity , I remind you, that responsible people who can't afford it do NOT participate in.

Surely you admit that the welfare system in this country encourages irresponsibility? Acknowledging that does not mean a person advocates getting rid of the system entirely, as that is not what I want at all.

There is a correlation between poverty and poor decision-making. Not all people are poor because they are poor decision-makers (some are born poor and make better decisions and become less poor), but many people become poor or stay poor through poor decision-making.

Given that, aren't we best served by ensuring that their poor decision-making doesn't include bringing an innocent child into the situation?

 

[JustTheFacts]

You know what those poor women need to force them into a sense of responsibility? A baby. That'll learn them.

When I was younger I had chances to have sex that I passed on because I had no birth control at the time.

Why can't poor people do the same? see it's about CHOICE. "Gee, I can't afford a child right now, hell I can't even afford a condom, so maybe I should CHOOSE not to have sex"

How hard is that?

You're trying to justify giving people something that they need for an activity that they can live without.

An activity , I remind you, that responsible people who can't afford it do NOT participate in.

Surely you admit that the welfare system in this country encourages irresponsibility? Acknowledging that does not mean a person advocates getting rid of the system entirely, as that is not what I want at all.

There is a correlation between poverty and poor decision-making. Not all people are poor because they are poor decision-makers (some are born poor and make better decisions and become less poor), but many people become poor or stay poor through poor decision-making.

Given that, aren't we best served by ensuring that their poor decision-making doesn't include bringing an innocent child into the situation?

Indeed. Youve convinced me. We should sterilize those who who make poor choices.

 

[catzmeow]

When I was younger I had chances to have sex that I passed on because I had no birth control at the time.

Why can't poor people do the same? see it's about CHOICE. "Gee, I can't afford a child right now, hell I can't even afford a condom, so maybe I should CHOOSE not to have sex"

How hard is that?

You're trying to justify giving people something that they need for an activity that they can live without.

An activity , I remind you, that responsible people who can't afford it do NOT participate in.

Surely you admit that the welfare system in this country encourages irresponsibility? Acknowledging that does not mean a person advocates getting rid of the system entirely, as that is not what I want at all.

There is a correlation between poverty and poor decision-making. Not all people are poor because they are poor decision-makers (some are born poor and make better decisions and become less poor), but many people become poor or stay poor through poor decision-making.

Given that, aren't we best served by ensuring that their poor decision-making doesn't include bringing an innocent child into the situation?

Indeed. Youve convinced me. We should sterilize those who who make poor choices.

Okay. But, wouldn't tubal ligation or male sterilization be more expensive than birth control pills and have the added disadvantage of violating the constitution?

 

[JustTheFacts]

There is a correlation between poverty and poor decision-making. Not all people are poor because they are poor decision-makers (some are born poor and make better decisions and become less poor), but many people become poor or stay poor through poor decision-making.

Given that, aren't we best served by ensuring that their poor decision-making doesn't include bringing an innocent child into the situation?

Indeed. Youve convinced me. We should sterilize those who who make poor choices.

Okay. But, wouldn't tubal ligation or male sterilization be more expensive than birth control pills and have the added disadvantage of violating the constitution?

Not sure about expense. But how would telling someone they can only get welfare if they get sterilized unconstitutional?


Actually I an sure about the cost. It would be cheaper for us bc many on welfare dont care about cost and have tons of kids they know they cant afford

 

[Dreamy]

You know what those poor women need to force them into a sense of responsibility? A baby. That'll learn them.

Not only poor women. People who claim they have no access to BC or who simply do not use BC. Lots of the latter it seems.

Funny how they suddenly get real smart about preventing those "ooops" moments that leads to a baby they really did not think could happen.

You know what this is really great for? Learning the babies involved.

There is nothing better for a baby than being raised by a woman who can't even figure out how to use a condom.

Catz in truth I am not going to sweat women and men who are confused by BC use and how to obtain it in the year 2013. I mean really. I simply do not buy that people are that f'n clueless. However I am going to be ticked off that I have to pay for other people's reproductive choices when I had to makes choices based on my own ability to afford certain choices, be it having more children or lifestyle decisions.

 

[Rozman]

You don't want to pay for children on welfare.
You don't want abortion to be legal.
You don't want to subsidize access to birth control.

What do you think should be done to prevent or reduce unplanned pregnancies?

Maybe they can stay home and study...Instead of fucking all night long.

 

[hjmick]

Try another board...

 

[catzmeow]

Not only poor women. People who claim they have no access to BC or who simply do not use BC. Lots of the latter it seems.

Funny how they suddenly get real smart about preventing those "ooops" moments that leads to a baby they really did not think could happen.

You know what this is really great for? Learning the babies involved.

There is nothing better for a baby than being raised by a woman who can't even figure out how to use a condom.

Catz in truth I am not going to sweat women and men who are confused by BC use and how to obtain it in the year 2013. I mean really. I simply do not buy that people are that f'n clueless. However I am going to be ticked off that I have to pay for other people's reproductive choices when I had to makes choices based on my own ability to afford certain choices, be it having more children or lifestyle decisions.

It pisses me off that I have to pay higher car insurance and health insurance rates because some assholes can't be bothered to pay for that, either.

Welcome to reality.

 

[catzmeow]

Indeed. Youve convinced me. We should sterilize those who who make poor choices.

Okay. But, wouldn't tubal ligation or male sterilization be more expensive than birth control pills and have the added disadvantage of violating the constitution?

Not sure about expense. But how would telling someone they can only get welfare if they get sterilized unconstitutional?


Actually I an sure about the cost. It would be cheaper for us bc many on welfare dont care about cost and have tons of kids they know they cant afford

What about the people who aren't on welfare yet? Wouldn't it be cheaper to prevent them from becoming pregnant in the first place, thus avoiding their eligibility for welfare?

 

[Big Black Dog]

You don't want to pay for children on welfare.
You don't want abortion to be legal.
You don't want to subsidize access to birth control.

What do you think should be done to prevent or reduce unplanned pregnancies?

Ever hear of "personal responsibility"?

 

[Dreamy]

You know what this is really great for? Learning the babies involved.

There is nothing better for a baby than being raised by a woman who can't even figure out how to use a condom.

Catz in truth I am not going to sweat women and men who are confused by BC use and how to obtain it in the year 2013. I mean really. I simply do not buy that people are that f'n clueless. However I am going to be ticked off that I have to pay for other people's reproductive choices when I had to makes choices based on my own ability to afford certain choices, be it having more children or lifestyle decisions.

It pisses me off that I have to pay higher car insurance and health insurance rates because some assholes can't be bothered to pay for that, either.

Welcome to reality.

Don't get me going about insurance premiums but I live in a state where I get lower premiums for good driving and that is cool.

So you think I/we should have to pay for those who can't figure out how to use BC or won't and who make the bad choices I avoid so as NOT to incur more money out of my pocket? So why the hell am I and others being so responsible when being a f'n irresponsible screw off seems to be the "approved" way? Please do not try to convince me that these are just poor naive uninformed people getting on the government dole. I know better and have seen reality Catz. Last one I saw was not sure who her babies daddy was. She was 2 abortions gone by and decided to keep this one. Not one penny was paid by her or her baby daddy for this child. Oh and she admits without shame or concern that she just does not like BC.

 

[AmyNation]

There will always be those who choose poverty. There will always be low IQ, lazy people. There will always be leeches on society.

The idea is to keep their numbers low, and prevent them from negatively affecting the population at large.

 

[Dreamy]

There will always be those who choose poverty. There will always be low IQ, lazy people. There will always be leeches on society.

The idea is to keep their numbers low, and prevent them from negatively affecting the population at large.

I agree and I simply want to stop rewarding irresponsible people with my money. My/our tax money has not stopped their behavior so time for them to learn like I learned. By not doing those things which will cost me in a negative way.

Is preventing pregnancies such a confusing thing to that many people? Or are that many people not worried about that which does not cost them?

 

[eflatminor]

The idea is to keep their numbers low, and prevent them from negatively affecting the population at large.

That is among the founding principals of the Progressive movement.

BTW, that "keep their numbers low" thing...how's that working out?

 

[JustTheFacts]

You know what this is really great for? Learning the babies involved.

There is nothing better for a baby than being raised by a woman who can't even figure out how to use a condom.

Catz in truth I am not going to sweat women and men who are confused by BC use and how to obtain it in the year 2013. I mean really. I simply do not buy that people are that f'n clueless. However I am going to be ticked off that I have to pay for other people's reproductive choices when I had to makes choices based on my own ability to afford certain choices, be it having more children or lifestyle decisions.

It pisses me off that I have to pay higher car insurance and health insurance rates because some assholes can't be bothered to pay for that, either.

Welcome to reality.

.insurance rates are not the government. Welcome to the difference.

 

[catzmeow]

You don't want to pay for children on welfare.
You don't want abortion to be legal.
You don't want to subsidize access to birth control.

What do you think should be done to prevent or reduce unplanned pregnancies?

Ever hear of "personal responsibility"?

Do people who aren't responsible enough to prevent pregnancy make responsible parents?

Your little soundbyte is very sweet, and I'm a big fan of personal responsibility, but what about people who aren't responsible, at all? What do you advise that we do to diminish the impact they can have on the rest of us?

 

[catzmeow]

So you think I/we should have to pay for those who can't figure out how to use BC or won't and who make the bad choices I avoid so as NOT to incur more money out of my pocket? So why the hell am I and others being so responsible when being a f'n irresponsible screw off seems to be the "approved" way? Please do not try to convince me that these are just poor naive uninformed people getting on the government dole. I know better and have seen reality Catz. Last one I saw was not sure who her babies daddy was. She was 2 abortions gone by and decided to keep this one. Not one penny was paid by her or her baby daddy for this child. Oh and she admits without shame or concern that she just does not like BC.

I don't think we're required to, morally, but pragmatically speaking, I think that we'd be wise to do so, just as we're wise to legally require people to carry car insurance, even though that creates an additional layer of bureaucracy and enforcement that we all have to pay for.

I get that these people are not responsible. For me, the outrage over giving them free stuff is really nonexistent. The goal is to change behavior, and by doing so, mitigate the amount of damage they are able to cause to me, to their future children, and to our social structure due to their lack of responsibility. If providing free birth control prevents a lot of pregnancies and abortions, it's totally worth it, in the long run.

I'm very pragmatic. In my mind, there are a whole lot of people out there who probably aren't responsible enough to be parents. I want us to do what we can to prevent people from bringing a child into the world who will wind up damaged, aborted, or causing harm to the rest of us.

It's a much bigger picture than just "zomg, we're giving people free stuff."

Yes, we are giving people free stuff, but we are doing so to prevent the number of people who rely on government assistance from increasing.

If I can prevent the child of a welfare mom from becoming pregnant during high school, and increase the odds that the girl will finish high school, thus reducing her odds of being unemployable and dependent on assistance from others, I'm going to do so.

I don't care if poor people want to fuck like rabbits on my dime. I don't want young women bringing children into the world that are ultimately going to exert a cost on the rest of society. I don't care about policing people's morals, I care about mitigating the harm that they can cause to me and mine as a result of breeding children that they can't care for.

I see it as no different than those spay/neuter programs that operate on feral cats and release them. I'm not allowed to sterilize people simply because I'm poor, but if I can provide the means by which they sterilize themselves, I benefit from that in a simple cost/outcome analysis.

I say that we have an enlightened self interest in doing this on a widespread basis.

 

[catzmeow]

Catz in truth I am not going to sweat women and men who are confused by BC use and how to obtain it in the year 2013. I mean really. I simply do not buy that people are that f'n clueless. However I am going to be ticked off that I have to pay for other people's reproductive choices when I had to makes choices based on my own ability to afford certain choices, be it having more children or lifestyle decisions.

It pisses me off that I have to pay higher car insurance and health insurance rates because some assholes can't be bothered to pay for that, either.

Welcome to reality.

.insurance rates are not the government. Welcome to the difference.

The government enforces the legal requirement of carrying insurance coverage. This is a layer of bureaucracy that you and i both pay for that is designed to mitigate the larger cost of uninsured drivers causing accidents that they don't pay for.

That's the point. Providing birth control mitigates a larger cost that would be caused by not providing it.

 

[JustTheFacts]

So you think I/we should have to pay for those who can't figure out how to use BC or won't and who make the bad choices I avoid so as NOT to incur more money out of my pocket? So why the hell am I and others being so responsible when being a f'n irresponsible screw off seems to be the "approved" way? Please do not try to convince me that these are just poor naive uninformed people getting on the government dole. I know better and have seen reality Catz. Last one I saw was not sure who her babies daddy was. She was 2 abortions gone by and decided to keep this one. Not one penny was paid by her or her baby daddy for this child. Oh and she admits without shame or concern that she just does not like BC.

I don't think we're required to, morally, but pragmatically speaking, I think that we'd be wise to do so, just as we're wise to legally require people to carry car insurance, even though that creates an additional layer of bureaucracy and enforcement that we all have to pay for.

I get that these people are not responsible. For me, the outrage over giving them free stuff is really nonexistent. The goal is to change behavior, and by doing so, mitigate the amount of damage they are able to cause to me, to their future children, and to our social structure due to their lack of responsibility. If providing free birth control prevents a lot of pregnancies and abortions, it's totally worth it, in the long run.

I'm very pragmatic. In my mind, there are a whole lot of people out there who probably aren't responsible enough to be parents. I want us to do what we can to prevent people from bringing a child into the world who will wind up damaged, aborted, or causing harm to the rest of us.

It's a much bigger picture than just "zomg, we're giving people free stuff."

Yes, we are giving people free stuff, but we are doing so to prevent the number of people who rely on government assistance from increasing.

If I can prevent the child of a welfare mom from becoming pregnant during high school, and increase the odds that the girl will finish high school, thus reducing her odds of being unemployable and dependent on assistance from others, I'm going to do so.

I don't care if poor people want to fuck like rabbits on my dime. I don't want young women bringing children into the world that are ultimately going to exert a cost on the rest of society. I don't care about policing people's morals, I care about mitigating the harm that they can cause to me and mine as a result of breeding children that they can't care for.

I see it as no different than those spay/neuter programs that operate on feral cats and release them. I'm not allowed to sterilize people simply because I'm poor, but if I can provide the means by which they sterilize themselves, I benefit from that in a simple cost/outcome analysis.

I say that we have an enlightened self interest in doing this on a widespread basis.

And yes your plan sounds wonderful, in theory. In reality, why are we supporting these folks anyway? I am all for , 100% helping those in need. I am 100% against helping those who make bad choices knowing full well that Uncle Sam will bail them out.

The ONLY persons I feel sorry for in that situation is the children who did nothing to deserve being born to such shitty parents.

I suspect that that is your concern as well. So , if we REALLY wanted to help those kids we wouldn't abort them, we would get them out of the shitty environment they were born into and into a more stable , more mature home.

Does that mean taking children away from unfit pieces of shit? Yep, sure does. Plenty of good folk out there who can't have kids of their own, or who would love to help a child in need.

And guess what; I suspect if the government quit making it so easy to get so much free shit , that people would start acting more responsibly. That's just common sense. Take away a tight rope walker's safety net and he's a lot more careful when he walks that rope.

These people we are talking about are morons. Sooner or later you have to let them fail so that they learn to succeed.

And just in case you were thinking it , I am 100% against corporate welfare as well. Hell, I'm so far against corporate welfare that I think the minimum wage should be raised to $20 an hour and companies should be told that paying wages so low that they have employees who qualify for welfare while a few get rich is no longer acceptable.