Putting a Face on the Healthcare Debate

[AVG-JOE]

Do you have the slightest fucking clue what you are even trying to say?

Yes.

America owes its prowess to the rich land and resources, including the human resources, that were used to create 'America'.

Our resources, natural and human are very much a plus. But, I think our form of government, and freedoms, including freedom of thought give credence to how successful we are.

That, as well as cheap labor for the heavy lifting, is all part of the 'human' resources I mentioned.

 

[Sarah G]

And yet they still manage to create one red herring after another

- death panels
- socialized medicine
- free healthcare for illegals
- abortion coverage
- killing grandma

Anything it takes to prevent Americans from affordable healthcare

Even more sinister, they're politicizing it to prevent Democrats from being successful. They weren't even thinking about Americans being denied affordable healthcare. It's all about them holding on to their jobs whatever it takes.

 

[mudwhistle]

And yet they still manage to create one red herring after another

- death panels
- socialized medicine
- free healthcare for illegals
- abortion coverage
- killing grandma

Anything it takes to prevent Americans from affordable healthcare

Even more sinister, they're politicizing it to prevent Democrats from being successful. They weren't even thinking about Americans being denied affordable healthcare. It's all about them holding on to their jobs whatever it takes.

Seems to me the fight has always been between Democrats. The GOP has had nothing to do with the writing of this bill and all of the bribes have been paid out to....you guessed it....DEMOCRATS that are holding out.

Affordable health care....affordable to somebody making $170k.

But people that cut hair and only make $15k won't be able to afford *affordable* health care.

What happened to the Universal aspect of their stupid health care reform?

I'll tell you what happened to it. They couldn't get it past the CBO because it was an economic disaster in the making so now they have to change their rhetoric to fit their bill.

Well, not exactly.....it's still very misleading.

One misleading aspect is that now they admit their bill doesn't cover everyone. Millions are still being left out and the fact that they're in all practicality making it illegal to not have insurance.....punishable by a huge fine....and possible imprisonment...up to 5 years.

They forget to mention that little sticking point.

 

[Murf76]

Its a fact as Republicans prefer to let those 30 million people die rather than allow them to get affordable heathcare.

What ever happened to supply and demand? As the demand increases the market will adjust to meet the demand. Why would doctors leave medicine? Do doctors in Canada nad England leave because they have socialized medicine? If socialized medicine costs lives, why do they have a higher life expectancy than the US?

Nuh-uh. You didn't just invoke the spirit of "supply and demand", did ya??
... 'Cause.... um... you realize, don't you, that Supply & Demand relies upon... wait for it!...
....The Profit Motive.

Seems to me that spending two hundred grand on an education just so you can be micro-managed by government bureaucrats and double as an open wallet for ambulance-chasing lawyers isn't much motivation. Particularly when you're living paycheck to paycheck because your pay has been limited.


Oh... and Sparky... this might be hard news... But the sad fact is that we're ALL gonna die one day. Having insurance doesn't change that. We're only mortal. It's what we do with our lives that makes them worthwhile. Trading Liberty for Life is a fool's trade. The Devil can't keep his end of the bargain.

 

[Navy1960]

Let's look at a few things then, first of all in Denver in 2008 the Democrat party added to it's platform the very words "public option" calling on the Federal Govt. to pass healthcare legislation that would create a "public option" In this bill the only "public option that many will see is Medicaid and with no passage of Doc-Fix and the number of Doctors leaving Medicaid as well as unavailibility of access , that will leave many with nothing but the ability to say, " I have health insurance" and little else. The bill does nothing to reform costs in drugs, open health insurance markets, or reform the ever increasing costs of malpractice and junk lawsuits. The bill does however send millions to state Medicaid and over burden a vast majority of states with unfunded mandates in a time when some states like my own are laying off teachers, police, and services to the general public. A few more things this bill does is to raise taxes on not only those individuals making more than 200,000 per year ( the so called rich) but also 46 million American households according to the CMS. It further raises premiums to an additional 34 million Americans as well as mandates coverage across the nation. Perphas one of the most interesting statements from those that support this bill, is that it is supposed to fix Medicare by taking almost 500 billion dollars from an already almost insolvent program. Thats like telling someone who pays 4900 dollars a month in bills and has 5000 in their checking account your going to fix their financial situation by taking 2500 dollars out of their checking account and giving to someone else to pay their bills and hoping by doing so yours will magically go down. The bill also makes claims according to the CBO that it will save 100 plus billion dollars and will not impact the deficit. Thats true when you do not have to offer any so called reforms other than those that could have been done in a one page bill, for at least 4 years and the whole time collect taxes for the bill as well as remove money from another program and shift the payment burden on the states. In short while the Federal Govt. may according to the CBO not face any deficit problems with this bill it does not mean the STATES will not be forced to choke down a vast majority of the costs associated with it. This bill is far from reform even as stated by the President when running for office, the Democrat party plank, and many in the progressive movement. What I find most interesting about this bill, is that for the last several months and year is the insurance companies have been made into villans at every turn and in the end the final bill is one that will result in those same insurance companies being the major benefactors of the bill. If anyone chooses to call that reform then be my guest, I choose to call it the need for a political victory at all cost.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Let's look at a few things then, first of all in Denver in 2008 the Democrat party added to it's platform the very words "public option" calling on the Federal Govt. to pass healthcare legislation that would create a "public option" In this bill the only "public option that many will see is Medicaid and with no passage of Doc-Fix and the number of Doctors leaving Medicaid as well as unavailibility of access , that will leave many with nothing but the ability to say, " I have health insurance" and little else. The bill does nothing to reform costs in drugs, open health insurance markets, or reform the ever increasing costs of malpractice and junk lawsuits. The bill does however send millions to state Medicaid and over burden a vast majority of states with unfunded mandates in a time when some states like my own are laying off teachers, police, and services to the general public. A few more things this bill does is to raise taxes on not only those individuals making more than 200,000 per year ( the so called rich) but also 46 million American households according to the CMS. It further raises premiums to an additional 34 million Americans as well as mandates coverage across the nation. Perphas one of the most interesting statements from those that support this bill, is that it is supposed to fix Medicare by taking almost 500 billion dollars from an already almost insolvent program. Thats like telling someone who pays 4900 dollars a month in bills and has 5000 in their checking account your going to fix their financial situation by taking 2500 dollars out of their checking account and giving to someone else to pay their bills and hoping by doing so yours will magically go down. The bill also makes claims according to the CBO that it will save 100 plus billion dollars and will not impact the deficit. Thats true when you do not have to offer any so called reforms other than those that could have been done in a one page bill, for at least 4 years and the whole time collect taxes for the bill as well as remove money from another program and shift the payment burden on the states. In short while the Federal Govt. may according to the CBO not face any deficit problems with this bill it does not mean the STATES will not be forced to choke down a vast majority of the costs associated with it. This bill is far from reform even as stated by the President when running for office, the Democrat party plank, and many in the progressive movement. What I find most interesting about this bill, is that for the last several months and year is the insurance companies have been made into villans at every turn and in the end the final bill is one that will result in those same insurance companies being the major benefactors of the bill. If anyone chooses to call that reform then be my guest, I choose to call it the need for a political victory at all cost.

Actually, this bill does give us one positive result.

It give us a starting point for the last remaining bastion of free enterprise, the independent lawyer, to work out a proper set of health insurance rules over the next 150 years.

Your great-great grandchildren will celebrate this legislation.

 

[Navy1960]

Forgive me Joe if I am less than optimistic if any generation of Americans will be celebrating this bill as I don't see it lasting long enough for it to get that far, as it has many hurdles to overcome. As for the lawyers , well that remains to be seen , and I am very sure that many are seeing this as a business bonanza for litigation and thus through that littigation and the massive number of rules that follow that, will result in a healthcare law that has little to do with reform at all.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Forgive me Joe if I am less than optimistic if any generation of Americans will be celebrating this bill as I don't see it lasting long enough for it to get that far, as it has many hurdles to overcome. As for the lawyers , well that remains to be seen , and I am very sure that many are seeing this as a business bonanza for litigation and thus through that littigation and the massive number of rules that follow that, will result in a healthcare law that has little to do with reform at all.

You're forgiven.

I remain optimistic for the next economy and for the next generation.

As long as nobody gets nuked, our children may yet reach for the stars.​

 

[Navy1960]

Forgive me Joe if I am less than optimistic if any generation of Americans will be celebrating this bill as I don't see it lasting long enough for it to get that far, as it has many hurdles to overcome. As for the lawyers , well that remains to be seen , and I am very sure that many are seeing this as a business bonanza for litigation and thus through that littigation and the massive number of rules that follow that, will result in a healthcare law that has little to do with reform at all.

You're forgiven.

I remain optimistic for the next economy and for the next generation.

As long as nobody gets nuked, our children may yet reach for the stars.​

Don't misundertand me when I give you my opinion on this current bill. I have a lot of faith in these young people, in fact, basically I believe that the American spirit is very much alive, more so if you ask me , in the generation of Americans that my daughter represents. You need only look so far as the hard working young men and women that sacrifice themselves daily in the military to understand that simple truth or the young person that works three jobs in order top pay for college. Having said all that, it's my hope that this next generation and those that follow have much more opportunitythan I ever had or my parents. I do think though, that the more we mortgage the furture of those gifted and hard working young Americans the harder we make it for them to have that.

 

[Meister]

Yes.

America owes its prowess to the rich land and resources, including the human resources, that were used to create 'America'.

Our resources, natural and human are very much a plus. But, I think our form of government, and freedoms, including freedom of thought give credence to how successful we are.

That, as well as cheap labor for the heavy lifting, is all part of the 'human' resources I mentioned.

Cheap labor? Please explain. Are you talking about illegals for the heavy lifting? Why would you even let that enter the equation if you are?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Our resources, natural and human are very much a plus. But, I think our form of government, and freedoms, including freedom of thought give credence to how successful we are.

That, as well as cheap labor for the heavy lifting, is all part of the 'human' resources I mentioned.

Cheap labor? Please explain. Are you talking about illegals for the heavy lifting? Why would you even let that enter the equation if you are?

No, I refer to the cheap labor that did the grunt work around here from 1700 to 1940.

Can you imagine how much more backward the technology in this country would be if the Railroads, Bridges, Subways, Aqueducts, Sewer Systems, Canals and other infrastructure built between 1800 and 1950, that we still use today, had been built with Union Labor?!?

Even the highways we drive on every day would never have been built if Americas first 5 generations had been as worried about 'what's in it for me' as we seem to be.

Greed from the top down is what is going to ham-string this nation. Already has.