Public Education (1st through 12th grade)

[Agnapostate]

Vouchers are nothing more than food stamps for gubmint schools...It's somewhat surprising to me that Milton Friedman came up with that scam (OTOH, he was also primarily responsible for tax withholding, so maybe it's not that big a surprise).

It doesn't surprise me. His Chicago school ideology was able to distance him from the more extreme market utopianists (i.e. the Austrian school), and consider state-sponsored methods of maintaining capitalism, which are of course integral.

 

[BaltimoreBob]

I loved Public School
A year later I would learn of
Cowardness & Child Abuse in America
when I was sent to Vietnam as a KID of 20.

Garden Spot High School graduate
in the middle of my class.

Baltimore Bob

 

[wvulax]

Everyone should want to pay for education. If the little thug gets an education and goes to college, he doesn't want/have to sell drugs or rob your house to get those TV's and cars that are advertised everywhere because he can afford them with a legal job.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I'll reiterate, it's not public, private, or home schooled. It's providing the best education one can give the kids. Very few can successfully homeschool. Some cannot afford or wish to give private. Thus many are left with pubic schooling, so one asks, 'What are YOU doing to make it better?'

In the interests of full disclosure, I home school.

I chose this avenue for two reasons: 1) unlike many parents who would like to, I have been able to make adjustments in life that allow me to, and 2) I want an a full and varied education for my children where they learn to think, and where they have a content-rich education, similar to the education that our public schools used to provide.

If you do not have an association with the public schools covering the last several decades, be aware that they no longer consider " taxing students with any actual academic content."

Sol Stern wrote:
Pedagogy of the Oppressor
Another reason why U.S. ed schools are so awful: the ongoing influence of Brazilian Marxist Paulo Freire
Pedagogy of the Oppressor by Sol Stern, City Journal Spring 2009

Which includes the following:
"Sol Stern found the one book that the [New York Teaching Fellows] had to read in full was Pedagogy of the Oppressed, by the Brazilian educator Paulo Freire.
This book has achieved near-iconic status in America’s teacher-training programs. In 2003, David Steiner and Susan Rozen published a study examining the curricula of 16 schools of education—14 of them among the top-ranked institutions in the country, according to U.S. News and World Report—and found that Pedagogy of the Oppressed was one of the most frequently assigned texts in their philosophy of education courses.

."This ed-school bestseller is, instead, a utopian political tract calling for the overthrow of capitalist hegemony and the creation of classless societies...The pedagogical point of Freire’s thesis : its opposition to taxing students with any actual academic content, which Freire derides as “official knowledge” that serves to rationalize inequality within capitalist society. One of Freire’s most widely quoted metaphors dismisses teacher-directed instruction as a misguided “banking concept,” in which “the scope of action allowed to the students extends only as far as receiving, filing and storing the deposits.” Freire proposes instead that teachers partner with their coequals, the students, in a “dialogic” and “problem-solving” process until the roles of teacher and student merge into “teacher-students” and “student-teachers.”

". Freire’s rejection of teaching content knowledge seemed to buttress what was already the ed schools’ most popular theory of learning, which argued that students should work collaboratively in constructing their own knowledge and that the teacher should be a “guide on the side,” not a “sage on the stage.”

" Over the last two decades, E. D. Hirsch’s Core Knowledge schools have proved over and over again not only that content-rich teaching raises the academic achievement of poor children on standardized tests but that those students remain curious, intellectually stimulated, and engaged—though the education schools continue to ignore these documented successes."

So, "social justice," rather than actual academic content, is the goal of the school system. This might explain the abysmal scores our students attain.

 

[Agnapostate]

I found Freire an insightful thinker, but overly broad. John Holt and Ivan Illich offered stronger and more direct criticisms of the authoritarian elements of the school system in their day, and now John Taylor Gatto in his.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I found Freire an insightful thinker, but overly broad. John Holt and Ivan Illich offered stronger and more direct criticisms of the authoritarian elements of the school system in their day, and now John Taylor Gatto in his.

School is exactly where we should see "authoritarian elements.' The teacher should be the expert in the classroom, that is, if we wish our children to incorporate a body of knowledge in their thinking.

" [H]e relies on Marx’s standard formulation that “the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat [and] this dictatorship only constitutes the transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society.”
Is this what you believe education should be? The term means "to lead out of,' not lead into some assumed political orthodoxy.

"The impetus for this kind of thinking came from the veterans of the student-protest and antiwar movements of the 60’s, who put down their placards and began their “long march through the institutions,” earning Ph.D.s and joining humanities departments. Once in the academy, the leftists couldn’t resist incorporating their radical politics (whether Marxist, feminist, or racialist) into their teaching."


"There’s no evidence that Freirian pedagogy has had much success anywhere in the Third World. Nor have Freire’s favorite revolutionary regimes, like China and Cuba, reformed their own “banking” approaches to education, in which the brightest students are controlled, disciplined, and stuffed with content knowledge for the sake of national goals…only in America’s inner cities have Freirian educators been empowered to “liberate” poor children from an entirely imagined “oppression” and recruit them for a revolution that will never come?"
Pedagogy of the Oppressor by Sol Stern, City Journal Spring 2009

 

[Agnapostate]

School is exactly where we should see "authoritarian elements.' The teacher should be the expert in the classroom, that is, if we wish our children to incorporate a body of knowledge in their thinking.

I think not. John Darling puts it well in A. S. Neill on Democratic Authority: A Lesson from Summerhill?, Oxford Review of Education, Vol. 18, No. 1 (1992), pp. 45-57.

Schooling is, and has been at least since it became compulsory, a way of insulating young people from the world of work. It is also an important mechanism for stopping young people from growing up, in the phraseology of today's society, 'too quickly'. It is not entirely clear why tardy development should be seen as a virtue, but it seems likely that one reason for disliking rapid maturation is that this upsets our low-level expectations of what is possible. Because our society has these low-level expectations, it is entitled to treat children with an enveloping paternalism, which in turn fosters the infirm condition previously assumed.

That's a critical element in why Summerhill is a far more successful model compared to the traditional authoritarian school; its internal libertarian and democratic structure permits students a greater degree of self-governance and thereby the formation of virtuous attributes.

 

[PoliticalChic]

School is exactly where we should see "authoritarian elements.' The teacher should be the expert in the classroom, that is, if we wish our children to incorporate a body of knowledge in their thinking.

I think not. John Darling puts it well in A. S. Neill on Democratic Authority: A Lesson from Summerhill?, Oxford Review of Education, Vol. 18, No. 1 (1992), pp. 45-57.

Schooling is, and has been at least since it became compulsory, a way of insulating young people from the world of work. It is also an important mechanism for stopping young people from growing up, in the phraseology of today's society, 'too quickly'. It is not entirely clear why tardy development should be seen as a virtue, but it seems likely that one reason for disliking rapid maturation is that this upsets our low-level expectations of what is possible. Because our society has these low-level expectations, it is entitled to treat children with an enveloping paternalism, which in turn fosters the infirm condition previously assumed.

That's a critical element in why Summerhill is a far more successful model compared to the traditional authoritarian school; its internal libertarian and democratic structure permits students a greater degree of self-governance and thereby the formation of virtuous attributes.

Nonsense.

Not only is the concept of Summerhill counter-intuitive, but I've been less than successful in finding conclusive longitudinal studies of the students who have completed same.

I contend that we want to give a specific and -excuse the expression- Liberal Arts education along classical lines.

The result of the last several decades of anti-authoritarian approach is the terrible scores as compared to nations with more structured education, and a lack of a desire to excell.

In NYC, we fabricate scores, weaken curriculum, and claim to have given up 'social promotion'- until one looks below the surface:
"For years now, schools have been switching to “annualization” of their course offerings. Under this structure, students who fail the first semester of a sequential course (say, English 5 and 6) can get credit for both terms if they pass the second semester. The practical effect of this change is to destroy the work ethic of those students who’ve figured out how to game the system.
Under this flawed model, teachers face inexorable pressure to get their numbers up in the second term, however they can.
New York City’s much-heralded end to social promotion in schools has been replaced by something even worse—totally empty, if not universal, promotion. Partly as a result of new policies like credit recovery, this June’s graduation rates will likely reach record highs. Klein’s supporters will once again sound their optimistic refrain about educational progress. But at some point, ordinary New Yorkers, largely excluded from the education debate, will begin to realize that the progress is not what it seems.
Not Worth the Paper . . . by Marc Epstein, City Journal 1 June 2009

So sad, but I have little faith that the pendulum will swing back. It's the social equivalent of Gresham's Law, that bad money drives out good.

 

[Agnapostate]

Nonsense.

Not only is the concept of Summerhill counter-intuitive, but I've been less than successful in finding conclusive longitudinal studies of the students who have completed same.

I contend that we want to give a specific and -excuse the expression- Liberal Arts education along classical lines.

The result of the last several decades of anti-authoritarian approach is the terrible scores as compared to nations with more structured education, and a lack of a desire to excell.

(...)

So sad, but I have little faith that the pendulum will swing back. It's the social equivalent of Gresham's Law, that bad money drives out good.

There's no "anti-authoritarian model" implemented in New York schools, and thus not a legitimate means for criticism of such a model. The "nations with more structured education" that you can refer to often involve a system wherein many students are relegated to vocational occupations, while a wealthier elite hoard the professional positions. We've also seen that the expansion of tertiary education in the UK resulted in the more extensive certification of lower-ability persons from wealthier backgrounds, thus exacerbating inequality of opportunity.

But that's not the purpose of my commentary anyway. My support is literally directed toward an internally libertarian and democratic school system wherein pupils and instructors are responsible for participatory management. This is not so much based on the ideology of Freire or Kozol as Holt, Illich, and Gatto (the third being a prominent rightist, incidentally).

 

[PoliticalChic]

Nonsense.

Not only is the concept of Summerhill counter-intuitive, but I've been less than successful in finding conclusive longitudinal studies of the students who have completed same.

I contend that we want to give a specific and -excuse the expression- Liberal Arts education along classical lines.

The result of the last several decades of anti-authoritarian approach is the terrible scores as compared to nations with more structured education, and a lack of a desire to excell.

(...)

So sad, but I have little faith that the pendulum will swing back. It's the social equivalent of Gresham's Law, that bad money drives out good.

There's no "anti-authoritarian model" implemented in New York schools, and thus not a legitimate means for criticism of such a model. The "nations with more structured education" that you can refer to often involve a system wherein many students are relegated to vocational occupations, while a wealthier elite hoard the professional positions. We've also seen that the expansion of tertiary education in the UK resulted in the more extensive certification of lower-ability persons from wealthier backgrounds, thus exacerbating inequality of opportunity.

But that's not the purpose of my commentary anyway. My support is literally directed toward an internally libertarian and democratic school system wherein pupils and instructors are responsible for participatory management. This is not so much based on the ideology of Freire or Kozol as Holt, Illich, and Gatto (the third being a prominent rightist, incidentally).

With all due respect, you couldn't be more wrong.

NYC schools are exactly the "anti-authoritarian model." Group work in which one student does the work and three or four slide by, curriculum cut in half from a decade or two ago, pressure on teachers to teach for a small part of the 'instruction time,' and assign what is essentially busy work the rest of the time.

While you use the phrase "relegated to vocational occupations," where I see choice being deprived. Do you realize that the greatest reason for doing away with Vocational Schools and classes is that by contract fewer student can be put in such classes where machinery is being used?

No vouchers, no choice of an education. Democracy, or "exacerbating inequality of opportunity."

And you have decided that 'professional' is, what, of higher status or higher remuneration than the blue-collar vocations? How egalitarian of you.

Our system allows student to go back to school at every level, should they decide to do so. Why not let them choose at every level?

And, your "libertarian and democratic school system wherein pupils and instructors are responsible for participatory management" explains your infatuation with Freire, and Summerhill.

I think you should reconsider your positions, as you have not refuted my statements about Summerhill, nor "There’s no evidence that Freirian pedagogy has had much success anywhere in the Third World," nor ", E. D. Hirsch’s Core Knowledge schools have proved over and over again not only that content-rich teaching raises the academic achievement of poor children on standardized tests."

BTW, based on your excellent writing skills, it seems appropriate to ask which type of education you were afforded.

 

[Citizen]

IMHO, the downfall of our education system began with the consolidation of schools, followed closely by federal mandates.

When I started school, it was in a two room school house where the principle taught the "big room" grades 5 through 8, and the other teacher taught the "little room" grades 1 through 4.

Students learned not only from their own lessons, but from listening to the higher grades lessons, and helped those in the lower grades. Sometimes children can explain some concepts to another child easier than an adult, thus with children helping each other we all learned much easier.

Also with each community having its own schools, the teachers knew not only each student, but their parents also, and there was never any problem with discipline because your parents and the teacher knew each other, and you would be in more trouble at home, than in school, if you were unruly, or did not do your school work.

Now, teachers do not only not know their students, but clearly do not know the parents, and that interaction is paramount to a child's education and discipline while attending school. Without the teacher parent interaction the parents do not know what the child needs to progress through the learning process.

Also, today some schools are over crowded to the point that teachers are no longer teaching, but just attempting to maintain discipline.

Schools used to teach the basics, along with how to learn, in lieu of attempting to teach everything, and not succeeding in teaching anything very well.

The cost of education has gotten completely out of hand, because when I attended college the maintenance fee, for a full load, was $55 per quarter, and housing cost $60 per quarter.

Over the years, education costs have risen at a far greater rate than inflation, and there is no reason education costs should have risen more than inflation, while wages have not even remotely kept pace with it.

Part of the problem with the cost of education is the lack of maintenance. The high school I attended was a brick building built in the 1920's, but due to lack of proper maintenance, had to be completely replaced after just 60 some odd years, while other buildings built many years before are still in very good condition.

Granted, the school had no air conditioning and was heated by a coal fired boiler, with radiators, but the space taken up by the boiler could have been used to install a modern heating and cooling system with fan coils units replacing the old radiators, and all it would have taken to make the school handicapped accessible would have been the instillation of a single hydraulic elevator, because it was a two story building with two stair ways.

But instead of keeping the old building in a proper state of repair, a new one was built next to the old one where a perfectly good gym stood, which was torn down and had to be replaced also.

It is just amazing how much money can be wasted by our school systems, all the while crying for more funding, as if the dollar amount spent per student was any measure of our education system.

It is a fact that many private schools spend less per student than most public schools, have a better student teacher ratio, and provide a better education.

 

[random3434]

I teach in a 2 story, 70+ year old, unconditioned building, with 700+ students, and have for 12 years.

In the winter it's heated by an old boiler, that makes loud noises in the classroom all day long.

There are no screens on the windows, if you want some you need to buy your own.


Oh, but the Principal's office is air conditioned,,,,,wouldn't want the administrators to suffer in the heat like the students and teachers do.

A lot of students get bloody noses just from the heat. You don't know how many times I've been teaching,look up, and one of my students noses is bleeding. They do get to go to the air conditioned office then, get some ice and sit there in the cool until the bleeding stops, then are sent back to the classroom.


Isn't it 2009?

 

[PoliticalChic]

I teach in a 2 story, 70+ year old, unconditioned building, with 700+ students, and have for 12 years.

In the winter it's heated by an old boiler, that makes loud noises in the classroom all day long.

There are no screens on the windows, if you want some you need to buy your own.


Oh, but the Principal's office is air conditioned,,,,,wouldn't want the administrators to suffer in the heat like the students and teachers do.

A lot of students get bloody noses just from the heat. You don't know how many times I've been teaching,look up, and one of my students noses is bleeding. They do get to go to the air conditioned office then, get some ice and sit there in the cool until the bleeding stops, then are sent back to the classroom.


Isn't it 2009?

"The Bush administration has issued a booklet declaring that U.S. taxpayers spent more than $500 billion for public schools in the 2003-04 ..."
$500 billion spent on education - Washington Times

Can you state two or three ways you would change the system?

 

[random3434]

I teach in a 2 story, 70+ year old, unconditioned building, with 700+ students, and have for 12 years.

In the winter it's heated by an old boiler, that makes loud noises in the classroom all day long.

There are no screens on the windows, if you want some you need to buy your own.


Oh, but the Principal's office is air conditioned,,,,,wouldn't want the administrators to suffer in the heat like the students and teachers do.

A lot of students get bloody noses just from the heat. You don't know how many times I've been teaching,look up, and one of my students noses is bleeding. They do get to go to the air conditioned office then, get some ice and sit there in the cool until the bleeding stops, then are sent back to the classroom.


Isn't it 2009?

"The Bush administration has issued a booklet declaring that U.S. taxpayers spent more than $500 billion for public schools in the 2003-04 ..."
$500 billion spent on education - Washington Times

Can you state two or three ways you would change the system?

I think every educator out there will agree with me when I say:

#1-Get rid of the Top Heavy Administrators, and use that money for more teachers where needed.

#2 With those extra teachers you can have smaller classrooms, and the better chance of having differentiated instruction for all students. Not everyone learns the same.