President Barack Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize

[Modbert]

I disagree. They lost respect of Hitler much earlier than that. But they feared him and his regime. Their desire to live free did not get a chance to outweigh their fear of him before he killed himself and essentially ended the war. Therefore there was no real active resistance to speak of against the Nazi's within Germany. But I believe if the war had slogged on like WWI did, that eventually an attempt on Hitler's life would have succeeded, and, well....who knows from there.

Getting pretty deep into pure conjecture here. But bottom line is that IMO the German people did want democracy, and were ready for it by the end of the war. It wasn't just a light switch that got thrown when Hitler ate his gun.

Looking back and reading history, I was shocked that Hitler wasn't killed. 42 attempts on that monster's life. No wonder why many Germans believed him when he said it was a sign that God wanted him to continue his cause. (Not that I believe he did).

 

[RadiomanATL]

so did they change their minds when hitler committed suicide? he had the Germans' respect until the very end until he committed suicide.

No, they pretty much lost it in the middle of the war. '43 and '44 at the latest. But by then it was too late by a long shot. Read some of the accounts of the Germans who lived under Hitler. Quite a few of them wanted the Nazi's out. But since the Nazi's had a, well, pretty direct method of dealing with those who they thought posed a threat they (the people) pretty much just hunkered down and decided to wait it out.

I mean, look at the attempts on Hitler's life by his own staff, and their thoughts on his regime. While possibly not Democratic in nature, they damn sure realized that Hitler was doing more harm to Germany by '43 than actually doing anything to advance Germany. Hell, look how quickly they agreed to an unconditional surrender after he killed himself.

Sure, there are lots of people who went along with Hitler's delusions. Both among the populace and the high command, but there definitely was a rising tide of resentment against the Nazis towards the end of the war.

The soldiers on the eastern front were furious when they heard about von Staffenberg's assassination/coup attempt. The plan was to kill Hitler, make peace with the western allies, and continue the slaughter in the east. Maybe there were differences between soldiers and civilians.

The fact that thousands were arrested and hundreds were executed in the aftermath of the coup shows that it wasn't just a small group of people who were dissatisfied with the way things were going. And this was within the military itself. German soldiers who were trained to obey without question. So imagine what dissident thoughts that civilians had about the Nazi regime by then.

Like I said, getting pretty deep into conjecture here. But IMO the dissatisfaction of the Nazi regime, and the yearning for democracy, didn't just start when Hitler died.

Now, I gotta go record the news and lay down for a nap. Back in the morning.

 

[Immanuel]

yeah, how can obama be a champion of world peace when he is leading two wars?

I have been told you are a conservative and have seen little to dispute that. Would you consider that President Bush was attempting to bring peace to Iraq by building up that nation or do you simply think he was a warmonger?

How about Afghanistan? Was his goal there to bring about peace through strength or was it to kill innocent men, women and children?

If you would consider President Bush's efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan as having the ultimate goal peace in the middle east, how can you fault President Obama for using the same methods?

Immie

Consider a president who withdrew all of our fighting men from every foreign post in the world except for our embassies abroad. Imagine the consequences of that. What kind of power vacuum would we see? Not that I'm against this because I think we are currently bankrupting our nation to defend ingrates who, in the absence of the need to defend their own nation, have become socialist democracies. Do you know why we have little assistance from European nations in Afghanistan? Because their bloated governments are too expensive for them to have a military that's worth a damn. If we decline and withdraw as a world hegemon, as Obama seems to be intent on eventuating, there will be a vacuum the likes of which the world has not seen since WW2. That is, the Nazi vacuum, that we hesitantly filled in the interest of peace. Guess who will fill this new vacuum? There are two choices: Russia and China. How do you think they'll do compared to us? If you haven't noticed we're already setting up for this scenario. Dismantling missile defense systems here, cancelling meetings with the Dahlai Lama there. Our record isn't perfect, but the world will be apologizing to us when the PRC or Russia are running things across the pond. It'll almost be worth turning the greatest country in the world into a banana republic just so I can say "I told you so", to uninformed idealistic robama zombies like yourself. Of course, you probably won't live through the transition so I'll have to settle for pissing on your grave instead.

You have me pegged wrong.

I am not stating that President Obama should have won this award. I don't agree with President Obama. I did not vote for President Obama.

Elvis was questioning how I could say that President Obama might be worthy of the nomination in the future, which when you review the list of recent winners, you cannot deny that he might be as worthy as some of them were.

I do not believe that President Bush was worthy of the award.

My questions to elvis were to point out that applying strength to a region such as Iraq or Afghanistan were not necessarily anti-peace, if the goal was in fact to bring about peace.

Immie

PS Please don't piss on my grave.

 

[GWV5903]

You are probably correct, that is why we stayed in Germany & Japan, and why we should stay in Iraq & Afghanistan......

Except in Germany and Japan we weren't fighting against an entire culture. In Afghanistan and Iraq we are. Germany had Democracy before Hitler for example too.

Besides, it took two atomic bombs to get Japan to change it's tune. Do you say we should do the same to these two countries?

Germany/Japan and Afghanistan/Iraq are four entirely different situations but comparing the first two to the second two is apples to oranges.

Yes they are different, yet not to the extent of "apples to oranges"....

Do you believe we should walk away and let your claim happen?

I believe the challenge is to stay and learn to understand & respect these very different cultures, are you suggesting that we have not been able to co-exist with other Muslim cultures?

If we leave and witness the house of cards scenario, which is worst, staying or leaving? History suggest staying is the correct choice,,,,

Germany & Japan had more sophisticated societies than either one of these countries, making our presence more tolerable, I believe more than anything else, we have become too comfortable with our own existence and forget too easily what a struggle it was to become the leader of the free world.....

 

[elvis]

You are probably correct, that is why we stayed in Germany & Japan, and why we should stay in Iraq & Afghanistan......

Except in Germany and Japan we weren't fighting against an entire culture. In Afghanistan and Iraq we are. Germany had Democracy before Hitler for example too.

Besides, it took two atomic bombs to get Japan to change it's tune. Do you say we should do the same to these two countries?

Germany/Japan and Afghanistan/Iraq are four entirely different situations but comparing the first two to the second two is apples to oranges.

Yes they are different, yet not to the extent of "apples to oranges"....

Do you believe we should walk away and let your claim happen?

I believe the challenge is to stay and learn to understand & respect these very different cultures, are you suggesting that we have not been able to co-exist with other Muslim cultures?

If we leave and witness the house of cards scenario, which is worst, staying or leaving? History suggest staying is the correct choice,,,,

Germany & Japan had more sophisticated societies than either one of these countries, making our presence more tolerable, I believe more than anything else, we have become too comfortable with our own existence and forget too easily what a struggle it was to become the leader of the free world.....

What about the comparisons between Iran and Nazi Germany/Munich? is that apples to oranges?

 

[Modbert]

Yes they are different, yet not to the extent of "apples to oranges"....

Do you believe we should walk away and let your claim happen?

I believe the challenge is to stay and learn to understand & respect these very different cultures, are you suggesting that we have not been able to co-exist with other Muslim cultures?

If we leave and witness the house of cards scenario, which is worst, staying or leaving? History suggest staying is the correct choice,,,,

Germany & Japan had more sophisticated societies than either one of these countries, making our presence more tolerable, I believe more than anything else, we have become too comfortable with our own existence and forget too easily what a struggle it was to become the leader of the free world.....

Yes, I do believe we should walk away from Afghanistan and Iraq lest we become like the USSR did.

We can co-exist with Muslims. However, Democracy and Sharia law can not co-exist. Only naive people believe that. For example, in both these countries, Sharia law is winning.

Also, Germany and Japan were not in half as bad conditions as Afghanistan and Iraq are. Japan only had what we bombed wrong which wasn't that much. Germany took a long time to recover only because it was divided. Afghanistan and Iraq need total reform.

These countries don't want leaders. They want people who make their law continue to stay in power. Why do you think the Afghanistan Constitution now is taking away woman right after woman right that we installed after we began to occupy? Do you not see the eroding of women's rights in both countries?

 

[Immanuel]

Bush's ultimate goal was not peace in the middle east. it was democracy in the middle east. i wouldn't have given Bush a peace prize either.

Sure it wasn't oil?

/ducks

I thought the goal was to bring about peace... through democracy. But I agree, I would not have given the award to President Bush.

Immie

Bush's goal was peace through democracy. Cheney and others?

But that was what I was trying to say... peace through democracy. Some would claim that in order to bring about peace one must, at times, use force. I'm not sure I agree with that philosophy, but it seems to be the method applied by President Bush.

I do not for a minute believe that President Bush had war on the top of his list of preferences when he asked for authorization to take this country to war. His ultimate goal was peace and that through force if necessary.

Immie

 

[GWV5903]

What about the comparisons between Iran and Nazi Germany/Munich? is that apples to oranges?[/QUOTE]

And what specific comparison are you referring to?

 

[elvis]

What about the comparisons between Iran and Nazi Germany/Munich? is that apples to oranges?

And what specific comparison are you referring to?[/QUOTE]

actually I think Bush used it but said "Poland" instead. Is letting Iran develop a nuke without invading it the same as Neville Chamberlain at Munich?

 

[GWV5903]

Except in Germany and Japan we weren't fighting against an entire culture. In Afghanistan and Iraq we are. Germany had Democracy before Hitler for example too.

Besides, it took two atomic bombs to get Japan to change it's tune. Do you say we should do the same to these two countries?

Germany/Japan and Afghanistan/Iraq are four entirely different situations but comparing the first two to the second two is apples to oranges.

Yes they are different, yet not to the extent of "apples to oranges"....

Do you believe we should walk away and let your claim happen?

I believe the challenge is to stay and learn to understand & respect these very different cultures, are you suggesting that we have not been able to co-exist with other Muslim cultures?

If we leave and witness the house of cards scenario, which is worst, staying or leaving? History suggest staying is the correct choice,,,,

Germany & Japan had more sophisticated societies than either one of these countries, making our presence more tolerable, I believe more than anything else, we have become too comfortable with our own existence and forget too easily what a struggle it was to become the leader of the free world.....

What about the comparisons between Iran and Nazi Germany/Munich? is that apples to oranges?

What about the comparisons between Iran and Nazi Germany/Munich? is that apples to oranges?

And what specific comparison are you referring to?

actually I think Bush used it but said "Poland" instead. Is letting Iran develop a nuke without invading it the same as Neville Chamberlain at Munich?[/QUOTE]

I am afraid it is, do you suggest that Obama is our modern day Chamberlain?

 

[elvis]

Yes they are different, yet not to the extent of "apples to oranges"....

Do you believe we should walk away and let your claim happen?

I believe the challenge is to stay and learn to understand & respect these very different cultures, are you suggesting that we have not been able to co-exist with other Muslim cultures?

If we leave and witness the house of cards scenario, which is worst, staying or leaving? History suggest staying is the correct choice,,,,

Germany & Japan had more sophisticated societies than either one of these countries, making our presence more tolerable, I believe more than anything else, we have become too comfortable with our own existence and forget too easily what a struggle it was to become the leader of the free world.....

What about the comparisons between Iran and Nazi Germany/Munich? is that apples to oranges?

What about the comparisons between Iran and Nazi Germany/Munich? is that apples to oranges?

And what specific comparison are you referring to?

actually I think Bush used it but said "Poland" instead. Is letting Iran develop a nuke without invading it the same as Neville Chamberlain at Munich?

I am afraid it is, do you suggest that Obama is our modern day Chamberlain?[/QUOTE]

Well he could be. People forget that Chamberlain was VERY popular immediately after Munich. "peace in our time"

 

[PatekPhilippe]

so did they change their minds when hitler committed suicide? he had the Germans' respect until the very end until he committed suicide.

Once they learned Hitler committed suicide supposedly, he lost their respect. They saw him as this great leader who fought to the end. Ironically, if he had gone down being shot at, he would of been turned into a Martyr by many of the German people. Instead, he was a coward.

Although to be quite honest, I don't think the Soviets ever nabbed Hitler. I think he got away and that they didn't want to admit that he slipped through their fingers.

I disagree. They lost respect of Hitler much earlier than that. But they feared him and his regime. Their desire to live free did not get a chance to outweigh their fear of him before he killed himself and essentially ended the war. Therefore there was no real active resistance to speak of against the Nazi's within Germany. But I believe if the war had slogged on like WWI did, that eventually an attempt on Hitler's life would have succeeded, and, well....who knows from there.

Getting pretty deep into pure conjecture here. But bottom line is that IMO the German people did want democracy, and were ready for it by the end of the war. It wasn't just a light switch that got thrown when Hitler ate his gun.

Conjecture indeed!!!!

You seem to be under the impression that the public was privvy to all of the bad things happening in Germany during the war. Quite the opposite was happening I can assure you. The people were not prepared for the bombing raids and destruction of their country by Allied Air Forces. When it began happening Hitlers regime turned this to their advantage and still had complete control over the population right up until the Russians invaded German territory. The losses to our air forces was MASSIVE and accounted for 60% of Allied combat deaths. This was a huge morale booster for Germany. They were under the impression they were still winning.
and then there is this little tidbit...if this subject is of interest to you I would suggest reading some of these references:
WWII - Europe - Germany - German Resistance - A-I
The German resistance was alive and well but the Gestapo was quite skilled in counterintelligence and counterinsurgency warfare.

 

[GWV5903]

Yes they are different, yet not to the extent of "apples to oranges"....

Do you believe we should walk away and let your claim happen?

I believe the challenge is to stay and learn to understand & respect these very different cultures, are you suggesting that we have not been able to co-exist with other Muslim cultures?

If we leave and witness the house of cards scenario, which is worst, staying or leaving? History suggest staying is the correct choice,,,,

Germany & Japan had more sophisticated societies than either one of these countries, making our presence more tolerable, I believe more than anything else, we have become too comfortable with our own existence and forget too easily what a struggle it was to become the leader of the free world.....

Yes, I do believe we should walk away from Afghanistan and Iraq lest we become like the USSR did.

"Become like the USSR?" Now that is quit a strech.....

We can co-exist with Muslims. However, Democracy and Sharia law can not co-exist. Only naive people believe that. For example, in both these countries, Sharia law is winning.

It is still a debate if Shria Law is winning, and no they can not co-exist.....

Also, Germany and Japan were not in half as bad conditions as Afghanistan and Iraq are. Japan only had what we bombed wrong which wasn't that much. Germany took a long time to recover only because it was divided. Afghanistan and Iraq need total reform.

Japan was pummeled and all of Germany was bombed to hell and back, both were major rebuilding efforts and today they are both productive members of the world, are you trying to say that Iraq & Afghanistan are??

These countries don't want leaders. They want people who make their law continue to stay in power. Why do you think the Afghanistan Constitution now is taking away woman right after woman right that we installed after we began to occupy? Do you not see the eroding of women's rights in both countries?

So you want to leave? I thought you were concerned about women's rights??

 

[Modbert]

So you want to leave? I thought you were concerned about women's rights??

Can you just respond to my posts without putting inside my own quotes? Do you have any idea how annoying it is to try and respond to your post?

As for your questions, yes I am concerned about women's right and yes I think we should leave. At this point, the only way that women will have rights in Afghanistan and Iraq is if we force the people's hands. Considering this goes against their entire culture, who do you think will win on that one?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Also, Germany and Japan were not in half as bad conditions as Afghanistan and Iraq are. Japan only had what we bombed wrong which wasn't that much. Germany took a long time to recover only because it was divided. Afghanistan and Iraq need total reform.

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What kind of statement is this!!!! What school did you go to?

 

[GWV5903]

Yes they are different, yet not to the extent of "apples to oranges"....

Do you believe we should walk away and let your claim happen?

I believe the challenge is to stay and learn to understand & respect these very different cultures, are you suggesting that we have not been able to co-exist with other Muslim cultures?

If we leave and witness the house of cards scenario, which is worst, staying or leaving? History suggest staying is the correct choice,,,,

Germany & Japan had more sophisticated societies than either one of these countries, making our presence more tolerable, I believe more than anything else, we have become too comfortable with our own existence and forget too easily what a struggle it was to become the leader of the free world.....

Yes, I do believe we should walk away from Afghanistan and Iraq lest we become like the USSR did.

We can co-exist with Muslims. However, Democracy and Sharia law can not co-exist. Only naive people believe that. For example, in both these countries, Sharia law is winning.

Also, Germany and Japan were not in half as bad conditions as Afghanistan and Iraq are. Japan only had what we bombed wrong which wasn't that much. Germany took a long time to recover only because it was divided. Afghanistan and Iraq need total reform.

These countries don't want leaders. They want people who make their law continue to stay in power. Why do you think the Afghanistan Constitution now is taking away woman right after woman right that we installed after we began to occupy? Do you not see the eroding of women's rights in both countries?

What about the comparisons between Iran and Nazi Germany/Munich? is that apples to oranges?

And what specific comparison are you referring to?

actually I think Bush used it but said "Poland" instead. Is letting Iran develop a nuke without invading it the same as Neville Chamberlain at Munich?

I am afraid it is, do you suggest that Obama is our modern day Chamberlain?

Well he could be. People forget that Chamberlain was VERY popular immediately after Munich. "peace in our time"[/QUOTE]

"peace in our time" what a great line.....problem we face though are countries like Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, etc.....

When I was much younger I believed that was all we needed, then Reagan brought down the Berlin Wall and I had hope we could get there, now we have another potential Chamberlain, maybe this is the cycle we have to go through......

 

[Modbert]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What kind of statement is this!!!! What school did you go to?

It's my opinion. Germany was worse than Afghanistan and Iraq. However, Japan wasn't. Afghanistan and Iraq were so bad after what we did that it has taken more then six years and people still don't have water and electricity.

 

[GWV5903]

So you want to leave? I thought you were concerned about women's rights??

Can you just respond to my posts without putting inside my own quotes? Do you have any idea how annoying it is to try and respond to your post?

As for your questions, yes I am concerned about women's right and yes I think we should leave. At this point, the only way that women will have rights in Afghanistan and Iraq is if we force the people's hands. Considering this goes against their entire culture, who do you think will win on that one?

Well it is a good thing our founding fathers had a different view about the British Empire....

 

[rubberhead]

I have been told you are a conservative and have seen little to dispute that. Would you consider that President Bush was attempting to bring peace to Iraq by building up that nation or do you simply think he was a warmonger?

How about Afghanistan? Was his goal there to bring about peace through strength or was it to kill innocent men, women and children?

If you would consider President Bush's efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan as having the ultimate goal peace in the middle east, how can you fault President Obama for using the same methods?

Immie

Consider a president who withdrew all of our fighting men from every foreign post in the world except for our embassies abroad. Imagine the consequences of that. What kind of power vacuum would we see? Not that I'm against this because I think we are currently bankrupting our nation to defend ingrates who, in the absence of the need to defend their own nation, have become socialist democracies. Do you know why we have little assistance from European nations in Afghanistan? Because their bloated governments are too expensive for them to have a military that's worth a damn. If we decline and withdraw as a world hegemon, as Obama seems to be intent on eventuating, there will be a vacuum the likes of which the world has not seen since WW2. That is, the Nazi vacuum, that we hesitantly filled in the interest of peace. Guess who will fill this new vacuum? There are two choices: Russia and China. How do you think they'll do compared to us? If you haven't noticed we're already setting up for this scenario. Dismantling missile defense systems here, cancelling meetings with the Dahlai Lama there. Our record isn't perfect, but the world will be apologizing to us when the PRC or Russia are running things across the pond. It'll almost be worth turning the greatest country in the world into a banana republic just so I can say "I told you so", to uninformed idealistic robama zombies like yourself. Of course, you probably won't live through the transition so I'll have to settle for pissing on your grave instead.

You have me pegged wrong.

I am not stating that President Obama should have won this award. I don't agree with President Obama. I did not vote for President Obama.

Elvis was questioning how I could say that President Obama might be worthy of the nomination in the future, which when you review the list of recent winners, you cannot deny that he might be as worthy as some of them were.

I do not believe that President Bush was worthy of the award.

My questions to elvis were to point out that applying strength to a region such as Iraq or Afghanistan were not necessarily anti-peace, if the goal was in fact to bring about peace.

Immie

PS Please don't piss on my grave.

Oh. My bad. I really just had to get that off my chest anyway. Sorry I lashed out at you. It's entirely possible that Obama might eventually earn this award. Of course I would have to be completely wrong for that to be the case. Nothing would make me happier.

 

[Chris]

Yes they are different, yet not to the extent of "apples to oranges"....

Do you believe we should walk away and let your claim happen?

I believe the challenge is to stay and learn to understand & respect these very different cultures, are you suggesting that we have not been able to co-exist with other Muslim cultures?

If we leave and witness the house of cards scenario, which is worst, staying or leaving? History suggest staying is the correct choice,,,,

Germany & Japan had more sophisticated societies than either one of these countries, making our presence more tolerable, I believe more than anything else, we have become too comfortable with our own existence and forget too easily what a struggle it was to become the leader of the free world.....

Yes, I do believe we should walk away from Afghanistan and Iraq lest we become like the USSR did.

We can co-exist with Muslims. However, Democracy and Sharia law can not co-exist. Only naive people believe that. For example, in both these countries, Sharia law is winning.

Also, Germany and Japan were not in half as bad conditions as Afghanistan and Iraq are. Japan only had what we bombed wrong which wasn't that much. Germany took a long time to recover only because it was divided. Afghanistan and Iraq need total reform.

These countries don't want leaders. They want people who make their law continue to stay in power. Why do you think the Afghanistan Constitution now is taking away woman right after woman right that we installed after we began to occupy? Do you not see the eroding of women's rights in both countries?

actually I think Bush used it but said "Poland" instead. Is letting Iran develop a nuke without invading it the same as Neville Chamberlain at Munich?

I am afraid it is, do you suggest that Obama is our modern day Chamberlain?

Well he could be. People forget that Chamberlain was VERY popular immediately after Munich. "peace in our time"

"peace in our time" what a great line.....problem we face though are countries like Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, etc.....

When I was much younger I believed that was all we needed, then Reagan brought down the Berlin Wall and I had hope we could get there, now we have another potential Chamberlain, maybe this is the cycle we have to go through......[/QUOTE]

Bush Sr. was president when the Berlin Wall fell.

Not Reagan.