Playing God (Marlise Munoz discussion)

[Two Thumbs]

the chance of being born disabled is not a valid excuse for abortion

it's a selfish excuse

nothing more

 

[BobPlumb]

Well, the fetus, the nonchild, will never have an opportunity to develop into a child handycaped or otherwise. Would anyone position of this be different there were no medical problems with the fetus?

I guess fetuses just don't matter!

 

[Pogo]

Well, the fetus, the nonchild, will never have an opportunity to develop into a child handycaped or otherwise. Would anyone position of this be different there were no medical problems with the fetus?

I guess fetuses just don't matter!

I guess the fact that the mother is dead just plumb didn't penetrate.

 

[BDBoop]

The behavior of the pro-lifers with regard to this situation has been obviously, blatantly uncaring in the extreme. Nobody indicated any degree of empathy for her husband, her parents, her child, or Marlise herself and her wishes. No. It was all about the fetus.

 

[Pogo]

The behavior of the pro-lifers with regard to this situation has been obviously, blatantly uncaring in the extreme. Nobody indicated any degree of empathy for her husband, her parents, her child, or Marlise herself and her wishes. No. It was all about the fetus.

From what I saw it was not even that; it was all about robotic ideology-parroting.

Which is plumb crazy.

 

[BobPlumb]

The behavior of the pro-lifers with regard to this situation has been obviously, blatantly uncaring in the extreme. Nobody indicated any degree of empathy for her husband, her parents, her child, or Marlise herself and her wishes. No. It was all about the fetus.

From what I saw it was not even that; it was all about robotic ideology-parroting.

Which is plumb crazy.

Like I said....fetuses don't matter!

 

[Pogo]

The behavior of the pro-lifers with regard to this situation has been obviously, blatantly uncaring in the extreme. Nobody indicated any degree of empathy for her husband, her parents, her child, or Marlise herself and her wishes. No. It was all about the fetus.

From what I saw it was not even that; it was all about robotic ideology-parroting.

Which is plumb crazy.

Like I said....fetuses don't matter!

As I said ... robotic ideology-parroting.

What do you want, a cracker?

 

[BobPlumb]

From what I saw it was not even that; it was all about robotic ideology-parroting.

Which is plumb crazy.

Like I said....fetuses don't matter!

As I said ... robotic ideology-parroting.

What do you want, a cracker?

Hey, I'm agreeing with you, fetuses don't matter. I'm a convert to your side.

So make it a Ritz.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The behavior of the pro-lifers with regard to this situation has been obviously, blatantly uncaring in the extreme. Nobody indicated any degree of empathy for her husband, her parents, her child, or Marlise herself and her wishes. No. It was all about the fetus.

Of course not.

For most on the right it was solely about exploiting this family’s tragedy for some perceived political gain.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Why is this discussion even happening. In the face of the wishes of herself, her husband, her parents, why do "small government" conservatives believe that the government should have a say in whether this woman lived or died, when she would have had no extraordinary measures taken, were she not pregnant.

When Pro-life Goes Frankenstein: The Case of Marlise Munoz | Morgan Guyton

Indeed, Rachel Cox at LifeNews berates Erick for wanting to honor his wife's wishes about her end-of-life care:

Why is this father trying to find all the reasons why his wife and unborn child should be removed from life support and left to die, and not the reasons why they shouldn't? I find it very frustrating and disheartening that Erick Munoz thinks this way and also frightening that so many people actually agree with him. I believe these hopeless, negative attitudes about the Munoz family's situation are caused mainly by one thing: abortion. Abortion causes society to devalue human beings. When the abortion industry, media, and politicians pound in our heads over and over that unborn babies are blobs of disposable tissue, it's easier to see why someone would not be motivated to preserve the life of their "clump of cells."

Of course. It's all abortion's fault. That's why Erick and his wife's parents, all of whom want to end life support, are seeking closure and the ability to grieve their loss. Because the abortion industry has corrupted their minds. That's why Erick doesn't want a brain-dead body that is only a shell of a person to be artificially respirated as a super-expensive, organic fetus incubator. Elizabeth Landau writes that using the terms "brain-dead" and "life support" is a big part of the problem. When the brain no longer functions, a person is not just "brain-dead"; they are all the way dead. "Life support" is a misnomer in such cases because what's happening with the person's body is not life, but just a sort of zombie un-death, no different than if a mad scientist figured out how to create an organ plantation in which livers and kidneys and stomachs and hearts could be harvested from recently dead people and incubated outside of human bodies to be transplanted in the future (hey, it might not be a bad idea, but it isn't human life).

A truly Christian pro-life position is concerned with not letting people play God by ending unborn children's lives unnaturally with technology. The pro-life position becomes Frankenstein when it demands that technology be used to disallow nature from taking its course with human life. According to NIH data, God is the ultimate abortionist, terminating about half of all fertilized eggs, and about 15-20 percent of the fetuses of known pregnancies. If it became technologically possible to extract brand-new zygotes from the uterus and grow them in fail-proof incubators in which God would not be allowed to play God with human life so that the gestation rate would be absolutely 100 percent, would the pro-life movement call for that too?

She was removed from life support today, not just per a judge's order, but because the hospital chose not to appeal.

We should never have heard of her. Her husband should have found her, she should have been allowed to die, and that should have been the end of the story.

Texas hospital removes brain-dead pregnant woman Marlise Munoz from life support - CBS News

DALLAS - A Texas hospital removed life support from a pregnant, brain-dead woman following a judge's order that it was misapplying state law to disregard her family's wishes, the family's lawyers said.

Attorneys for Erick Munoz, the husband of Marlise Munoz, released a statement Sunday afternoon saying the order had been followed.

"Today, at approximately 11:30 a.m. central time, in accordance with the order of the 96th District Court of Tarrant County, Texas, issued Friday, January 24, 2014, Marlise Munoz’s body was disconnected from 'life support' and released to Mr. Munoz," Heather L. King and Jessica H. Janicek, Munoz's attorneys, said in a statement emailed to the press. "The Munoz and Machado families will now proceed with the somber task of laying Marlise Munoz’s body to rest, and grieving over the great loss that has been suffered. May Marlise Munoz finally rest in peace, and her family find the strength to complete what has been an unbearably long and arduous journey."

May she rest in peace.

The case has raised questions about end-of-life care and whether a pregnant woman who is considered legally and medically dead should be kept on life support for the sake of a fetus. It also has garnered attention on both sides of the abortion debate, with anti-abortion groups arguing Munoz's fetus deserves a chance to be born.

Hospital officials have said they were bound by the Texas Advance Directives Act, which prohibits withdrawal of life-sustaining treatment from a pregnant patient. But in his brief ruling, Wallace said that "Mrs. Munoz is dead," meaning that the hospital was misapplying the law. The ruling did not mention the fetus.

The hospital has not pronounced her dead and has continued to treat her over the objections of both Erick Munoz and her parents, who sat together in court Friday.

Next, I hope to see a lawsuit if the hospital attempts to bill the family for anything more than her arrival at the emergency room.

Heavy stuff. I need to chew on this for a while.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Maybe, maybe not. But unless dad won the Powerball, they would be having a tough time surviving, financially.

I speak for myself, if I was severely deformed, not able to live a normal life, had to depend on others to change my diaper and forever live in a wheel chair.....and if I was able to think at all, and knew that I was responsible for my father being in the poorhouse, I would rather not be here at all.

I agree with you, except for Steven Hawking is what you describe, severely deformed, not able to live a 'normal' life, having to depend on others for the most personal care, living in a wheel char...and he seems pretty happy. Of course, he's not putting his people in the poor house. Maybe if you are born that way, it is so much easier to accept. I don't know.

Hawking was not "born that way". He was perfectly normal as a child and it was only in his 20's that he started to gradually lose control over his body. He had been a rowing coxswain at Oxford prior to the onset of motor neuron disease. He was married and had fathered a son. It was a gradual loss that began with speech slurring and stumbling, then lead to requiring crutches and subsequently a wheelchair.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that the cost of his healthcare was never a burden to his family since he was living in a single payer society.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Well, the fetus, the nonchild, will never have an opportunity to develop into a child handycaped or otherwise. Would anyone position of this be different there were no medical problems with the fetus?

I guess fetuses just don't matter!

Just how ghoulish do you have to be to try and force a dead body to give birth? Furthermore how much was it going to cost the family to keep a dead body on "life support" for 6 months? Who was going to pay that enormous bill?

 

[Esmeralda]

I speak for myself, if I was severely deformed, not able to live a normal life, had to depend on others to change my diaper and forever live in a wheel chair.....and if I was able to think at all, and knew that I was responsible for my father being in the poorhouse, I would rather not be here at all.

I agree with you, except for Steven Hawking is what you describe, severely deformed, not able to live a 'normal' life, having to depend on others for the most personal care, living in a wheel char...and he seems pretty happy. Of course, he's not putting his people in the poor house. Maybe if you are born that way, it is so much easier to accept. I don't know.

Hawking was not "born that way". He was perfectly normal as a child and it was only in his 20's that he started to gradually lose control over his body. He had been a rowing coxswain at Oxford prior to the onset of motor neuron disease. He was married and had fathered a son. It was a gradual loss that began with speech slurring and stumbling, then lead to requiring crutches and subsequently a wheelchair.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that the cost of his healthcare was never a burden to his family since he was living in a single payer society.

I didn't know all of that. However, my point was that he is seriously disabled and still wants to live. I do think it is an easier state to live in if it has been the only thing you know. However, I am not addressing the issue of keeping a fetus alive inside a dead woman. Her next of kin should be the only ones to make that decision.

Also, we "play God" all the time now in modern medicine. This is just one example, one that is very controversial.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I agree with you, except for Steven Hawking is what you describe, severely deformed, not able to live a 'normal' life, having to depend on others for the most personal care, living in a wheel char...and he seems pretty happy. Of course, he's not putting his people in the poor house. Maybe if you are born that way, it is so much easier to accept. I don't know.

Hawking was not "born that way". He was perfectly normal as a child and it was only in his 20's that he started to gradually lose control over his body. He had been a rowing coxswain at Oxford prior to the onset of motor neuron disease. He was married and had fathered a son. It was a gradual loss that began with speech slurring and stumbling, then lead to requiring crutches and subsequently a wheelchair.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that the cost of his healthcare was never a burden to his family since he was living in a single payer society.

I didn't know all of that. However, my point was that he is seriously disabled and still wants to live. I do think it is an easier state to live in if it has been the only thing you know. However, I am not addressing the issue of keeping a fetus alive inside a dead woman. Her next of kin should be the only ones to make that decision.

Also, we "play God" all the time now in modern medicine. This is just one example, one that is very controversial.

The will to live is not the same thing as a fetus which has not even developed sufficient sentience to experience pain, let alone be capable of rational thought. We agree that her next of kin should have the right to make the tragic decision.

I also agree that we do "play God" and it is not just in medicine. Invading another nation is "playing God" because it is assuming that we have some "God given right" to kill innocent people for the purpose of imposing what we believe to be the way they should live their lives. And this has been happening for thousands of years so it isn't something new either. Corporations "play God" by deciding that they can pollute with impunity in pursuit of the Almighty Dollar. Again this has been happening for a long time but now it is on a global scale. BP "played God" in the Gulf and fracking is polluting water in multiple states. How many animals have suffered and died in the pursuit of science and yes, cosmetics too?

Controversial is an understatement when it comes to "playing God" in my opinion.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Well, not thus far in this thread. So since this isn't an abortion issue, and it is in the CDZ, I figure it should be a much different discussion.

I was referring to the (at least) two people in this thread who referred to the fetus as a child or a baby.

In various news articles, the fetus has been described as being horribly malformed, so much so that the sex was not knowable.

Would you mind sharing the links?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...f-woman-on-forced-life-support-malformed.html

Its also mentioned in one of the links you posted.

 

[Katzndogz]

Maybe, maybe not. But unless dad won the Powerball, they would be having a tough time surviving, financially.

I speak for myself, if I was severely deformed, not able to live a normal life, had to depend on others to change my diaper and forever live in a wheel chair.....and if I was able to think at all, and knew that I was responsible for my father being in the poorhouse, I would rather not be here at all.

I agree with you, except for Steven Hawking is what you describe, severely deformed, not able to live a 'normal' life, having to depend on others for the most personal care, living in a wheel char...and he seems pretty happy. Of course, he's not putting his people in the poor house. Maybe if you are born that way, it is so much easier to accept. I don't know.

Stephen Hawking was NOT born that way.

 

[Katzndogz]

Hawking was not "born that way". He was perfectly normal as a child and it was only in his 20's that he started to gradually lose control over his body. He had been a rowing coxswain at Oxford prior to the onset of motor neuron disease. He was married and had fathered a son. It was a gradual loss that began with speech slurring and stumbling, then lead to requiring crutches and subsequently a wheelchair.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that the cost of his healthcare was never a burden to his family since he was living in a single payer society.

I didn't know all of that. However, my point was that he is seriously disabled and still wants to live. I do think it is an easier state to live in if it has been the only thing you know. However, I am not addressing the issue of keeping a fetus alive inside a dead woman. Her next of kin should be the only ones to make that decision.

Also, we "play God" all the time now in modern medicine. This is just one example, one that is very controversial.

The will to live is not the same thing as a fetus which has not even developed sufficient sentience to experience pain, let alone be capable of rational thought. We agree that her next of kin should have the right to make the tragic decision.

I also agree that we do "play God" and it is not just in medicine. Invading another nation is "playing God" because it is assuming that we have some "God given right" to kill innocent people for the purpose of imposing what we believe to be the way they should live their lives. And this has been happening for thousands of years so it isn't something new either. Corporations "play God" by deciding that they can pollute with impunity in pursuit of the Almighty Dollar. Again this has been happening for a long time but now it is on a global scale. BP "played God" in the Gulf and fracking is polluting water in multiple states. How many animals have suffered and died in the pursuit of science and yes, cosmetics too?

Controversial is an understatement when it comes to "playing God" in my opinion.

Medical science has not determined that a fetus does not feel pain. They are still trying to determine that. If it turns out that a fetus DOES feel pain, the abortion controversy is over. As far as experiencing rational thought, the democrat political belief as expressed by Cass Sunstein and John Holdren is that children do not experience rational thought until two years of age which is why both men want to see post birth abortion legal up to two.

 

[Two Thumbs]

The behavior of the pro-lifers with regard to this situation has been obviously, blatantly uncaring in the extreme. Nobody indicated any degree of empathy for her husband, her parents, her child, or Marlise herself and her wishes. No. It was all about the fetus.

Of course not.

For most on the right it was solely about exploiting this family’s tragedy for some perceived political gain.

Like the left is doing now.

right now, in this very thread.



I might have missed it, but I'm the only one to be concerned for the family.

the leftist are hate spewing

 

[Luddly Neddite]

the chance of being born disabled is not a valid excuse for abortion

it's a selfish excuse

nothing more

What about the living? The father and the other child? What about her family?

Who will pay the bill to deliver a dead fetus from a dead mother?

If they can keep the fetus breathing, who will pay to keep the it breathing? (I say "it) because it is so horribly malformed, they cannot tell the sex.)

If you are one of those "christians", why not let your god decide?

The mother is dead.
The fetus is dead.

Give the family some peace.

 

[Katzndogz]

The fetus is certainly dead now! It wasn't dead when Marlise was put on life support to keep the fetus alive. The fetus was alive when life support was disconnected.