Party Loyalty is Poison

[Seymour Flops]

Biden. Trump. Harris. That's the best the two-party system can do.

I'm going to respectfully disagree about Trump.

Trump is a product of his own self-promotion, not of the Twoparties. How many Reps were in the Clown Car in 2016? Most of them long-term senior elected officials who ran as Republicans and stuck with the party line.

Yes, he co-opted the GOP for his own use. But that does not make him an example of how bad the two-party system is.

Gary Johnson or Chase Oliver had just as much chance to do that did as Trump did. Nothing stopped either of them from announcing their run for the GOP nomination and convincing enough Republican voters to win. Jill Stein or Rocky De La Fuenta had the same opportunity.

The opportunity for a third party is greater than ever, now that we know that the Democratic Party views the choice of the voters in the primary as a suggestion only. Voters won't forget that. I expect the turnout of the Democratic primary to be very low, because what is the point?

If a Greenie or a Reform Party person cannot give whatever DEI hire the DNC picks for us in 2028 some serious competition, they really need to re-examine their ability to get their message out.

Waiting for RCV is probably not the best strategy.

 

[dblack]

The opportunity for a third party ...

This thread isn't about third parties. Or Trump. It's about the corrupting nature of partisan politics.

Waiting for RCV is probably not the best strategy.

It's the only reform I've seen that is producing results. But maybe there's something better. It's hard to see how we could do worse than the two party system. It has utterly failed at providing sane, consensus government.

 

[Mac1958]

I'm going to respectfully disagree about Trump.

Trump is a product of his own self-promotion, not of the Twoparties. How many Reps were in the Clown Car in 2016? Most of them long-term senior elected officials who ran as Republicans and stuck with the party line.

Yes, he co-opted the GOP for his own use. But that does not make him an example of how bad the two-party system is.

Gary Johnson or Chase Oliver had just as much chance to do that did as Trump did. Nothing stopped either of them from announcing their run for the GOP nomination and convincing enough Republican voters to win. Jill Stein or Rocky De La Fuenta had the same opportunity.

The opportunity for a third party is greater than ever, now that we know that the Democratic Party views the choice of the voters in the primary as a suggestion only. Voters won't forget that. I expect the turnout of the Democratic primary to be very low, because what is the point?

If a Greenie or a Reform Party person cannot give whatever DEI hire the DNC picks for us in 2028 some serious competition, they really need to re-examine their ability to get their message out.

Waiting for RCV is probably not the best strategy.

Interesting. It could be that there are two parts to this.

First, yes, Trump is a symptom, a result. As it turns out -- I didn't know this -- America is fully sociologically susceptible to simple celebrity, self-promotion, flash, vulgarity and showbiz its national politics.

But the part of this that has enabled it the most is our current "system", one that holds hostage (because of the ******* craven nature of politicians) the GQP congresspeople who have sold their soul to him.

So maybe on one hand he exists for sociological reasons, but on the other hand he thrives because of a system that incentivizes and rewards the worst impulses of its participants.

 

[Seymour Flops]

This thread isn't about third parties. Or Trump. It's about the corrupting nature of partisan politics.

You brought up Trump.

As to third parties, what is the alternative you recommend to end the stranglehold of the Twoparties? No parties at all?

Good luck with that. What current democracies exist with no political parties?

It's the only reform I've seen that is producing results. But maybe there's something better. It's hard to see how we could do worse than the two party system. It has utterly failed at providing sane, consensus government.

RCV won't wipe out the Twoparties. It might give some satisfaction to current third parties by getting them more votes. But it gets them more votes by increasing the number of votes each voter can cast, not by making them more popular.

Maybe Trump's freinemy Elon Musk will successfuly sponsor a non Twoparties competitor. But my prediction would be that such a candidate would take more votes from the MAGA side than the Democrat side.

But hey! I could be wrong about that. Normal people who usually vote Democrat have to be fed up with the Party. So maybe a Musker could take enough votes from each party to make it a three way contest.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Interesting. It could be that there are two parts to this.

First, yes, Trump is a symptom, a result. As it turns out -- I didn't know this -- America is fully sociologically susceptible to simple celebrity, self-promotion, flash, vulgarity and showbiz its national politics.

You didn't know this?

Were you not around during the Obama years?

But the part of this that has enabled it the most is our current "system", one that holds hostage (because of the ******* craven nature of politicians) the GQP congresspeople who have sold their soul to him.

So maybe on one hand he exists for sociological reasons, but on the other hand he thrives because of a system that incentivizes and rewards the worst impulses of its participants.

The GOP congresspeople had no "souls" politically speaking.

Instead of asking themselves why Trump's message resonated with voters so much, they stuck in the race splitting the non-Trump vote, each hoping that when Trump finally fizzled, they would step in the gap.

They believed Trump would fizzle because they bought your spin about Trump having only simple celebrity, self-promotion, flash, vulgarity and showbiz. Because they believed that lie, they severely misjudged the situation.

Now, they have no choice but to follow the man they hated.

 

[dblack]

You brought up Trump.

You're right, I did. I think he's good evidence of how the two party system is failing us.

Regardless of what you think of him, and his policies, he's not a consensus leader. He doesn't inspire Americans to pull together behind an agenda. And I think the divisiveness is about more than him. I think its built in to the system.

As to third parties, what is the alternative you recommend to end the stranglehold of the Twoparties? No parties at all?

No. Parties aren't inherently bad. But when you combine them with plurality voting - and all the laws and regulations that block alternatives - they become divisive elements in our politics that make things worse, not better.

The plurality voting problem can be changed, and lots of us are working toward that goal. Sadly, the Democrats and Republicans are using their dominance to thwart that reform and preserve their dominance at the expense of the nation.

RCV won't wipe out the Twoparties.

Agreed. And that's not the point. The point is to remove the incentives for division and fear mongering. And to take away the primary tool of such division - lesser-of-two-evils voting.

I'm trying to stay civil with you, as you seem to be trying the same, but you really pissed me off when you claimed RCV doesn't eliminate lesser-of-two-evils voting. That's just not true. Getting rid of LO2E the primary change RCV introduces. It's not about getting rid of parties. It's not about third parties. It's about changing a system that forces us to choose between two shitty alternatives, between two parties more interested in their own power than the welfare of the nation

But hey! I could be wrong about that. Normal people who usually vote Democrat have to be fed up with the Party. So maybe a Musker could take enough votes from each party to make it a three way contest.

Yeah. I'm cautiously optimistic about his efforts. But I think his political instincts are terrible and the new party's success will require him to stay the hell out of its operations.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I'm trying to stay civil with you, as you seem to be trying the same,

Yeah, sure. We're just talking, here.

but you really pissed me off when you claimed RCV doesn't eliminate lesser-of-two-evils voting. That's just not true. Getting rid of LO2E the primary change RCV introduces. It's not about getting rid of parties. It's not about third parties. It's about changing a system that forces us to choose between two shitty alternatives, between two parties more interested in their own power than the welfare of the nation

Okay. Maybe I'm not following the logic.

How exactly does RCV get rid of LO2E, when it actually encourages people who pick a non-Twoparties candidate to also pick an LO2E? As in "I'm voting Green Party! But, I'll also give my secondary vote to the Democrats, since they are the closest to the Greens."

Currently, you pick the Green Party, Reform Party, or Libertarian Party, and neither of the LO2E candidates get anything from your vote. That seems the way to reduce the influence of the Twoparties.

Yeah. I'm cautiously optimistic about his efforts. But I think his political instincts are terrible and the new party's success will require him to stay the hell out of its operations.

Which of course he will not do. WHy would he found a party, only to give its leadership to someone else, and step out of it?

If he did that, he'd probably want to form another Party for himself.

 

[dblack]

Yeah, sure. We're just talking, here.

Okay. Maybe I'm not following the logic.

How exactly does RCV get rid of LO2E, when it actually encourages people who pick a non-Twoparties candidate to also pick an LO2E? As in "I'm voting Green Party! But, I'll also give my secondary vote to the Democrats, since they are the closest to the Greens."

I've answered this. The problem with LO2E isn't the idea of preferring one bad option to another. It's the threat involved: "vote for our asshole, even though you don't like him, because if you don't, this other guy will win and he's even worse!"

The problem with this is that masks the real opinions of voters. You guys create a system that allows only two viable parties, and then pretend that that's the way voters want it. RCV will register voters real opinions. If a third party gets 20-30% of the first place votes, it makes it very clear that not all voters favor Ds and Rs. It accurately represents the preferences of voters.

In a previous post you lost me going about how this supposedly gives small parties more of a voice that Ds and Rs. That perspective is perverse and highlights the entire "blaming the victim" nature of the two party shitshow. RCV accurately represents voters views and that's WHY Ds and Rs oppose it.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I've answered this. The problem with LO2E isn't the idea of preferring one bad option to another. It's the threat involved: "vote for our asshole, even though you don't like him, because if you don't, this other guy will win and he's even worse!"

The problem with this is that masks the real opinions of voters. You guys create a system that allows only two viable parties, and then pretend that that's the way voters want it. RCV will register voters real opinions. If a third party gets 20-30% of the first place votes, it makes it very clear that not all voters favor Ds and Rs. It accurately represents the preferences of voters.

In a previous post you lost me going about how this supposedly gives small parties more of a voice that Ds and Rs. That perspective is perverse and highlights the entire "blaming the victim" nature of the two party shitshow. RCV accurately represents voters views and that's WHY Ds and Rs oppose it.

I'm going to let you have this debate. You are mistating my claims, and accusing me of designing this sytem, when it was the founders who designed it.

You mentioned that you were getting upset. I'm close to your age, and I don't think it's a good idea to get worked up about an internet forum.

 

[JoeB131]

Joe, you're confused again. This thread isn't about your vendetta with Libertarians, and it's not about your trolling or your butthurt ego. Try to focus.

Sure it is. You can't whine about the two major parties when your silly little party can't even organize a nominating process.

Seriously, when someone named "Vermin Supreme" is a serious contender for your nomination, you rally don't get to be taken seriously.

Biden, Trump, Harris. Wallow in it.

Vermin Supreme. TIger King.

 

[dblack]

Sure it is.

Nope. That's your fixation. Get over it, or don't. When you're finished jerking off, clean up after yourself and try addressing the topic. Or don't.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm going to respectfully disagree about Trump.

Trump is a product of his own self-promotion, not of the Twoparties. How many Reps were in the Clown Car in 2016? Most of them long-term senior elected officials who ran as Republicans and stuck with the party line.

Yes, he co-opted the GOP for his own use. But that does not make him an example of how bad the two-party system is.

Actually, he shows the problem with the two-party system as it is.

He got the nomination because 1) He was running in a very large feild of people all saying more or less the same things, and 2) He more loudly appealed to the worst extremes

The problem with Trump is that exposes the cowardice of the GOP.

 

[JoeB131]

Nope. That's your fixation. Get over it, or don't. When you're finished jerking off, clean up after yourself and try addressing the topic. Or don't.

I have addressed the topic.

Third parties are a joke. They will always be a joke. They will not become less of a joke because you impose a confusing RCV and more people select Vermin Supreme as their first choice before he is eliminated.

 

[dblack]

I have addressed the topic.

Not yet. And I doubt you will. It's just not your style.

 

[JoeB131]

Not yet. And I doubt you will. It's just not your style.

Sure I have.

To summarize.

Third Parties are a joke. Especially the Libertarians, whose great goal in life seems to be getting just enough votes to qualify for matching funds.

Ranked Clusterfuck Voting is a terrible idea and the few places that use it are seeing awful results (Alaska, NYC)

Little Prima Donnas like you who want to make a difference need to roll up you sleeves and be ready to do the work.

 

[dblack]

Sure I have.

Don't worry. My posts certainly won't make any difference. I think the dominance of your precious duopoly is safe. But I'm still going to point out how fucked up it is. Sorry, not sorry..

 

[JoeB131]

Don't worry. My posts certainly won't make any difference. I think the dominance of your precious duopoly is safe. But I'm still going to point out how fucked up it is. Sorry, not sorry..

No, your posts provide me with great fun. Please keep up the good work. Oh, work is an alien concept to you posting at 2:19 on a work day.

 

[dblack]

No, your posts provide me with great fun. Please keep up the good work. Oh, work is an alien concept to you posting at 2:19 on a work day.

LOL - the personal digs are your go-to when you are losing. And you are losing. Your precious two-party clusterfuck is going down in flames.

 

[Dirk the Daring]

You didn't know this?

Were you not around during the Obama years?

The GOP congresspeople had no "souls" politically speaking.

Instead of asking themselves why Trump's message resonated with voters so much, they stuck in the race splitting the non-Trump vote, each hoping that when Trump finally fizzled, they would step in the gap.

They believed Trump would fizzle because they bought your spin about Trump having only simple celebrity, self-promotion, flash, vulgarity and showbiz. Because they believed that lie, they severely misjudged the situation.

Now, they have no choice but to follow the man they hated.

Obama definitely fits, but in my mind the 'style over substance' issue started long before Obama. I firmly believe that Bill Clinton won the presidency the night he played the saxophone on the Arsenio Hall show. Clinton, despite being a doofus of the highest order, seemed 'cool and hip' when compared to Poppa Bush.

But, as I have alluded to in previous posts, I think the allure of Trump was that he DID come from outside the two parties. He wasn't the 'safe party picks' of McCain and Romney who simply didn't relate to the American public. Those guys were smarmy politicians, whereas Trump was a rough around the edges outsider. My biggest problem with Trump was that once he got elected, he TURNED INTO a smarmy politician.

 

[JoeB131]

LOL - the personal digs are your go-to when you are losing. And you are losing. Your precious two-party clusterfuck is going down in flames.

Didn't you just say it wasn't going anywhere?

You need to check with your leader, Vermin Supreme.