CDZ Partisan ideology makes people ugly.

[Compost]

Regarding the prevalence of partisan ideology- I wonder if it has something to do with our sound bite culture. It is just easier (habitual) to yell hypocrite or fake news, then make the effort to ask the person some questions that you might understand their views or to do a bit of research on an issue?

What can be done? It's tempting to say we need to get back to basics, tradition. Do unto others? Could it be we like baiting and attacking each other?

Is it too late to change? Does anybody want to give up the instant message lifestyle? Are we doomed to grow less intelligent and more knee jerk with each generation?

 

[Mac1958]

I have to disagree with the premise posited in the OP. Partisan ideology may or may not make someone act ugly. Believing is one thing, acting out another. But more importantly it isn't really a party issue. The deep divide is between conservative and liberal ideologies. Left vs. right. Political parties are where we tend to go to implement our beliefs, or defend them.

That's a perfectly valid point, thanks.

The ideologies have existed for a long time, and yes, I'm really talking more about behavior than ideology.

I see two problems on a macro level. First, each end of the spectrum has become so binary, all-or-nothing, black & white, that any cooperation is seen as abject capitulation. Any willingness to even admit they UNDERSTAND the other's point is seen as some kind of surrender. That's just not the way adults should behave. No one will "get their way" all of the time, and the wild swings we see in our politics will continue until we can at least communicate and at least get along like adults.

Second, the old saying "everyone is screaming and no one is listening" couldn't apply more. What, precisely, is the goal of a strategy like that?
.

You ignored everything I said to posit your view is the only correct one. Isn't that what you accuse others of?

I said what's wrong with the simple view, it isn't all about party politics. It's often how people see life, what's important or unimportant. I oppose big government and live with massive compromises. Exactly what do I divide in half if I vote for less taxes and regulation?

You remind me of judges that simply divide everything 50/50 in the interest of fairness. Well, sometimes people are right and sometimes they are wrong. 50/50 is a copout.

Oops! I thought you were temporarily removing yourself from partisan ideology to discuss its behaviors.

My bad, sorry.
.

You have no response because you project your shortcomings onto others. You're damn right your bad. Just because YOU are incapable of making decisions doesn't mean it a flaw when others can. You're the one with the simplistic black/white vision.

Actually, I do make decisions, I do take stands, and I do have opinions on all of the issues, every last single one. The differences between you and I, in no particular order, are:

1. Your opinions and stands on issues obediently and predictably fall in line with your partisan ideology, while mine are independent and often disagree with those on both ends.

2. You have convinced yourself that you and your end of the spectrum have all the answers, while I'm convinced that the best and longest-lasting answers can easily come from both ends of the spectrum, depending on the situation.

3. You're quick to utilize personal attacks, insults and partisan thought, while I have no such interest in doing so, because I'm more interested in fixing problems than in "beating" the other "side".

4. Your thought processes exist within an ideological vacuum, while I believe that ideological vacuums only serve to depress intellectual growth, retard dynamic thought and distort both perceptions & critical thinking skills.

5. You are incurious. I am curious.

6. You're ready and willing to deploy spin, diversion, deflection, straw man arguments and intellectual dishonesty in the goal of "winning" some kind of argument, while I feel those tactics do absolutely nothing to advance the conversation.

7. You perceive the political landscape as Left vs. Right (or some similar paradigm). I perceive it as hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends vs. a majority of the country.

Interestingly, I suspect any response you have to this post will include at least one of the seven elements above. This is why I find the behaviors of hardcore partisan ideology so fascinating as an amateur psychological / sociological / anthropological study.
.

 

[Mac1958]

Regarding the prevalence of partisan ideology- I wonder if it has something to do with our sound bite culture. It is just easier (habitual) to yell hypocrite or fake news, then make the effort to ask the person some questions that you might understand their views or to do a bit of research on an issue?

What can be done? It's tempting to say we need to get back to basics, tradition. Do unto others? Could it be we like baiting and attacking each other?

Is it too late to change? Does anybody want to give up the instant message lifestyle? Are we doomed to grow less intelligent and more knee jerk with each generation?

Excellent, yeah, I can see that. Sound byte culture, bumper sticker culture, instant gratification culture, all of that could make sense.

We've become terribly intellectually lazy, which makes us more prone to falling into ideological traps.

And it could be that we really do like baiting and attacking each other. What would cause that? Is that some kind of cultural disease that can be identified and addressed?

Good stuff.
.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Interesting how quickly we veered away from the thread topic.

This is an issue that is plaguing both our political processes and (now) our culture.

Would anyone like to offer some honest, candid, non-ideologically-based input?
.

My take is that people have some sort of innate need to be part of a tribe. Since we do not form our tribes through inbreeding as in the Middle East, people's search for one ends up in the political sphere. Especially considering that our very political system encourages people to see the world in binary, simple minded people decide to play cowboys and Indians by joining the tribe they invest with a sense of good and then battling against the tribe they see as evil.

Lack of in intelligence + excessive need to conform to tribe = extreme partisanship.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Interesting how quickly we veered away from the thread topic.

This is an issue that is plaguing both our political processes and (now) our culture.

Would anyone like to offer some honest, candid, non-ideologically-based input?
.

Why, that was already covered, dude.

In America, you have ever right to protest when a Nazi steals your presidency.

It is still America, after all.

The thread title discussing ugly partisanship really wasn't an invitation to turn it into an example of just that, you know.

 

[Mac1958]

Interesting how quickly we veered away from the thread topic.

This is an issue that is plaguing both our political processes and (now) our culture.

Would anyone like to offer some honest, candid, non-ideologically-based input?
.

Why, that was already covered, dude.

In America, you have ever right to protest when a Nazi steals your presidency.

It is still America, after all.

The thread title discussing ugly partisanship really wasn't an invitation to turn it into an example of just that, you know.

It becomes so deeply ingrained in thought processes that it's almost unavoidable. It becomes a natural, instinctive reaction.
.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Well, that didn't take long.

Lol, I cant read what you responded to because I likely have them on ignore.

My masochism only goes so far.

 

[Mac1958]

Interesting how quickly we veered away from the thread topic.

This is an issue that is plaguing both our political processes and (now) our culture.

Would anyone like to offer some honest, candid, non-ideologically-based input?
.

My take is that people have some sort of innate need to be part of a tribe. Since we do not form our tribes through inbreeding as in the Middle East, people's search for one ends up in the political sphere. Especially considering that our very political system encourages people to see the world in binary, simple minded people decide to play cowboys and Indians by joining the tribe they invest with a sense of good and then battling against the tribe they see as evil.

Lack of in intelligence + excessive need to conform to tribe = extreme partisanship.

The intelligence part is one of the most fascinating elements of this for me. There are people who are perfectly intelligent who fall victim to it. My best friend is brilliant, the most intelligent person I've ever known, and he's a full-blown Trump supporter. And other very intelligent people I know are on the opposite end.

I really think that it transcends intelligence, maybe running parallel to it, like it's more of an affliction than a function of intelligence.
.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It will never end, unfortunately, too many partisans.

That may be what concerns me the most. It seems (just my observation) that more and more people are getting like this, that it's becoming more and more pervasive in our culture, and there are fewer and fewer people who choose not to behave that way.

As with any plague that infects a culture, turning it around - if it ever happened - would be a very slow process. And it will take multiple people, leaders, from various walks of life to be brave and loudly stand up to it and set the example.

Nothing like that on the horizon.
.

Here is a thread I started on the symbiotic relationship between classic liberalism and classic conservatism if yo are interested.

CDZ - The Symbiotic Relationship Between Classic Liberalism and Classic Conservatism in Anglo Culture

The partisanship we are seeing is due to the media deciding to sell advertising instead of developing an appreciation for statesmanship after ABC I think it was got a huge ratings bump after William F Buckley Jr called Gore Vidal a queer and threatened to sock him in his face.

That changed the coverage of our political debate in our media and we had things degenerate from there.

The corporations use this partisanship to ensure that no matter how servile their cronies become, we will continue to vote for one of the two major parties so that we dont risk the demonized other party gaining power. And they ratchet up the partisan rhetoric to keep their bases so polarized against the other that they think the nation safely triangulated into supporting the two party system, even if they grow the odds of having a second civil war ever so slightly.

I suspect that this is a prescription for eventual disaster as the day will inevitably come when the ties that bind are so frayed that the loser genuinely thinks that widespread Bosnian civilwar is far more preferable than a peaceful change of power to thier hated opponents.

We are already nearing that limit of the tolerance envelope as the partisan Democrats demonstrate with their insane behavior of late.

 

[Iceweasel]

I have to disagree with the premise posited in the OP. Partisan ideology may or may not make someone act ugly. Believing is one thing, acting out another. But more importantly it isn't really a party issue. The deep divide is between conservative and liberal ideologies. Left vs. right. Political parties are where we tend to go to implement our beliefs, or defend them.

That's a perfectly valid point, thanks.

The ideologies have existed for a long time, and yes, I'm really talking more about behavior than ideology.

I see two problems on a macro level. First, each end of the spectrum has become so binary, all-or-nothing, black & white, that any cooperation is seen as abject capitulation. Any willingness to even admit they UNDERSTAND the other's point is seen as some kind of surrender. That's just not the way adults should behave. No one will "get their way" all of the time, and the wild swings we see in our politics will continue until we can at least communicate and at least get along like adults.

Second, the old saying "everyone is screaming and no one is listening" couldn't apply more. What, precisely, is the goal of a strategy like that?
.

You ignored everything I said to posit your view is the only correct one. Isn't that what you accuse others of?

I said what's wrong with the simple view, it isn't all about party politics. It's often how people see life, what's important or unimportant. I oppose big government and live with massive compromises. Exactly what do I divide in half if I vote for less taxes and regulation?

You remind me of judges that simply divide everything 50/50 in the interest of fairness. Well, sometimes people are right and sometimes they are wrong. 50/50 is a copout.

Oops! I thought you were temporarily removing yourself from partisan ideology to discuss its behaviors.

My bad, sorry.
.

You have no response because you project your shortcomings onto others. You're damn right your bad. Just because YOU are incapable of making decisions doesn't mean it a flaw when others can. You're the one with the simplistic black/white vision.

Actually, I do make decisions, I do take stands, and I do have opinions on all of the issues, every last single one. The differences between you and I, in no particular order, are:

1. Your opinions and stands on issues obediently and predictably fall in line with your partisan ideology, while mine are independent and often disagree with those on both ends.

2. You have convinced yourself that you and your end of the spectrum have all the answers, while I'm convinced that the best and longest-lasting answers can easily come from both ends of the spectrum, depending on the situation.

3. You're quick to utilize personal attacks, insults and partisan thought, while I have no such interest in doing so, because I'm more interested in fixing problems than in "beating" the other "side".

4. Your thought processes exist within an ideological vacuum, while I believe that ideological vacuums only serve to depress intellectual growth, retard dynamic thought and distort both perceptions & critical thinking skills.

5. You are incurious. I am curious.

6. You're ready and willing to deploy spin, diversion, deflection, straw man arguments and intellectual dishonesty in the goal of "winning" some kind of argument, while I feel those tactics do absolutely nothing to advance the conversation.

7. You perceive the political landscape as Left vs. Right (or some similar paradigm). I perceive it as hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends vs. a majority of the country.

Interestingly, I suspect any response you have to this post will include at least one of the seven elements above. This is why I find the behaviors of hardcore partisan ideology so fascinating as an amateur psychological / sociological / anthropological study.
.

I'm incurious? You are one inflated gas bag. You are guilty of the worse character traits you accuse others of. What a hypocrite. You use the CDZ to throw shit at people?

You are the most hardcore person here, you pretend to view us peons from Mt. Olympus and have already declared yourself the victor no matter what. How petty and cheap. Apparently you didn't want to discuss anything here, just set yourself up as Grand Master.

Phony bastard.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The intelligence part is one of the most fascinating elements of this for me. There are people who are perfectly intelligent who fall victim to it. My best friend is brilliant, the most intelligent person I've ever known, and he's a full-blown Trump supporter. And other very intelligent people I know are on the opposite end.

I really think that it transcends intelligence, maybe running parallel to it, like it's more of an affliction than a function of intelligence.
.

It probably derives from different sets of axioms. Some axioms one party holds and the other does not, some once held us together and were universal and have become almost completely abandoned today.

Along with axiomatic values one can add tot hat different data reference sources, different civil authorities that they respect and consider absent of any malice of prejudice, etc.

Our nation is undergoing a social and cultural mitosis that one can see reflected in the dichotomy of the various denominations in this country reflected on the issues of abortion and gay marriage.

 

[Iceweasel]

We are already nearing that limit of the tolerance envelope as the partisan Democrats demonstrate with their insane behavior of late.

Doesn't look like he wants an actual discussion but started the thread to declare superiority over ideologues and only he can define them. Pretends it's all a matter of partisanship and refuses to process anything that begs differ no matter what you say.

 

[Mac1958]

That's a perfectly valid point, thanks.

The ideologies have existed for a long time, and yes, I'm really talking more about behavior than ideology.

I see two problems on a macro level. First, each end of the spectrum has become so binary, all-or-nothing, black & white, that any cooperation is seen as abject capitulation. Any willingness to even admit they UNDERSTAND the other's point is seen as some kind of surrender. That's just not the way adults should behave. No one will "get their way" all of the time, and the wild swings we see in our politics will continue until we can at least communicate and at least get along like adults.

Second, the old saying "everyone is screaming and no one is listening" couldn't apply more. What, precisely, is the goal of a strategy like that?
.

You ignored everything I said to posit your view is the only correct one. Isn't that what you accuse others of?

I said what's wrong with the simple view, it isn't all about party politics. It's often how people see life, what's important or unimportant. I oppose big government and live with massive compromises. Exactly what do I divide in half if I vote for less taxes and regulation?

You remind me of judges that simply divide everything 50/50 in the interest of fairness. Well, sometimes people are right and sometimes they are wrong. 50/50 is a copout.

Oops! I thought you were temporarily removing yourself from partisan ideology to discuss its behaviors.

My bad, sorry.
.

You have no response because you project your shortcomings onto others. You're damn right your bad. Just because YOU are incapable of making decisions doesn't mean it a flaw when others can. You're the one with the simplistic black/white vision.

Actually, I do make decisions, I do take stands, and I do have opinions on all of the issues, every last single one. The differences between you and I, in no particular order, are:

1. Your opinions and stands on issues obediently and predictably fall in line with your partisan ideology, while mine are independent and often disagree with those on both ends.

2. You have convinced yourself that you and your end of the spectrum have all the answers, while I'm convinced that the best and longest-lasting answers can easily come from both ends of the spectrum, depending on the situation.

3. You're quick to utilize personal attacks, insults and partisan thought, while I have no such interest in doing so, because I'm more interested in fixing problems than in "beating" the other "side".

4. Your thought processes exist within an ideological vacuum, while I believe that ideological vacuums only serve to depress intellectual growth, retard dynamic thought and distort both perceptions & critical thinking skills.

5. You are incurious. I am curious.

6. You're ready and willing to deploy spin, diversion, deflection, straw man arguments and intellectual dishonesty in the goal of "winning" some kind of argument, while I feel those tactics do absolutely nothing to advance the conversation.

7. You perceive the political landscape as Left vs. Right (or some similar paradigm). I perceive it as hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends vs. a majority of the country.

Interestingly, I suspect any response you have to this post will include at least one of the seven elements above. This is why I find the behaviors of hardcore partisan ideology so fascinating as an amateur psychological / sociological / anthropological study.
.

I'm incurious? You are one inflated gas bag. You are guilty of the worse character traits you accuse others of. What a hypocrite. You use the CDZ to throw shit at people?

You are the most hardcore person here, you pretend to view us peons from Mt. Olympus and have already declared yourself the victor no matter what. How petty and cheap. Apparently you didn't want to discuss anything here, just set yourself up as Grand Master.

Phony bastard.

As I predicted, thanks.
.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You have no response because you project your shortcomings onto others. You're damn right your bad. Just because YOU are incapable of making decisions doesn't mean it a flaw when others can. You're the one with the simplistic black/white vision.

Actually, I do make decisions, I do take stands, and I do have opinions on all of the issues, every last single one. The differences between you and I, in no particular order, are:

1. Your opinions and stands on issues obediently and predictably fall in line with your partisan ideology, while mine are independent and often disagree with those on both ends.

2. You have convinced yourself that you and your end of the spectrum have all the answers, while I'm convinced that the best and longest-lasting answers can easily come from both ends of the spectrum, depending on the situation.

3. You're quick to utilize personal attacks, insults and partisan thought, while I have no such interest in doing so, because I'm more interested in fixing problems than in "beating" the other "side".

4. Your thought processes exist within an ideological vacuum, while I believe that ideological vacuums only serve to depress intellectual growth, retard dynamic thought and distort both perceptions & critical thinking skills.

5. You are incurious. I am curious.

6. You're ready and willing to deploy spin, diversion, deflection, straw man arguments and intellectual dishonesty in the goal of "winning" some kind of argument, while I feel those tactics do absolutely nothing to advance the conversation.

7. You perceive the political landscape as Left vs. Right (or some similar paradigm). I perceive it as hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends vs. a majority of the country.

Interestingly, I suspect any response you have to this post will include at least one of the seven elements above. This is why I find the behaviors of hardcore partisan ideology so fascinating as an amateur psychological / sociological / anthropological study.
.

Wow you two sound like a couple of my relatives who are intelligent good hearted people working on grasping the Reality they live in from very different angles based on their background and life experiences.

I hesitate to interject, but methinks you both have valuable things to learn from each other, if you can let the cloud of gun smoke reduce long enough to see what the other is trying to say.

 

[JimBowie1958]

We are already nearing that limit of the tolerance envelope as the partisan Democrats demonstrate with their insane behavior of late.

Doesn't look like he wants an actual discussion but started the thread to declare superiority over ideologues and only he can define them. Pretends it's all a matter of partisanship and refuses to process anything that begs differ no matter what you say.

I have had such discussions with Mac before, so I suspect that you are wrong on that point and he wrong about you as well on other points.

To have a useful conversation with someone you disagree with, you have to trust the other person long enough to hear what they say and internalize it to understand what they are trying to say but in their own words you have to digest.

If you two would chill out and speak to each other with more respect and charity, (that is the point to the Christmas season isnt it, btw?) I think you two could be greatly benefited from what you might learn from one another.

But as it typically is, I am the worst sinner of us all on this issue, and I am trying to learn to trust my ideological opposites once again as well.

 

[Compost]

Interesting how quickly we veered away from the thread topic.

This is an issue that is plaguing both our political processes and (now) our culture.

Would anyone like to offer some honest, candid, non-ideologically-based input?
.

My take is that people have some sort of innate need to be part of a tribe. Since we do not form our tribes through inbreeding as in the Middle East, people's search for one ends up in the political sphere. Especially considering that our very political system encourages people to see the world in binary, simple minded people decide to play cowboys and Indians by joining the tribe they invest with a sense of good and then battling against the tribe they see as evil.

Lack of in intelligence + excessive need to conform to tribe = extreme partisanship.

The intelligence part is one of the most fascinating elements of this for me. There are people who are perfectly intelligent who fall victim to it. My best friend is brilliant, the most intelligent person I've ever known, and he's a full-blown Trump supporter. And other very intelligent people I know are on the opposite end.

I really think that it transcends intelligence, maybe running parallel to it, like it's more of an affliction than a function of intelligence.
.

I think you're right that this transcends intelligence. Intelligence is like many abilities or talents, you have to hone it or it becomes a rusty tool.

I think there is something to the idea that it's a tribe thing- it's natural to want to belong- but I can't help but think that the biggest cause of the problem is just plain laziness.

 

[JimBowie1958]

That's a perfectly valid point, thanks.

The ideologies have existed for a long time, and yes, I'm really talking more about behavior than ideology.

I see two problems on a macro level. First, each end of the spectrum has become so binary, all-or-nothing, black & white, that any cooperation is seen as abject capitulation. Any willingness to even admit they UNDERSTAND the other's point is seen as some kind of surrender. That's just not the way adults should behave. No one will "get their way" all of the time, and the wild swings we see in our politics will continue until we can at least communicate and at least get along like adults.

Second, the old saying "everyone is screaming and no one is listening" couldn't apply more. What, precisely, is the goal of a strategy like that?
.

You ignored everything I said to posit your view is the only correct one. Isn't that what you accuse others of?

I said what's wrong with the simple view, it isn't all about party politics. It's often how people see life, what's important or unimportant. I oppose big government and live with massive compromises. Exactly what do I divide in half if I vote for less taxes and regulation?

You remind me of judges that simply divide everything 50/50 in the interest of fairness. Well, sometimes people are right and sometimes they are wrong. 50/50 is a copout.

Oops! I thought you were temporarily removing yourself from partisan ideology to discuss its behaviors.

My bad, sorry.
.

You have no response because you project your shortcomings onto others. You're damn right your bad. Just because YOU are incapable of making decisions doesn't mean it a flaw when others can. You're the one with the simplistic black/white vision.

Actually, I do make decisions, I do take stands, and I do have opinions on all of the issues, every last single one. The differences between you and I, in no particular order, are:

1. Your opinions and stands on issues obediently and predictably fall in line with your partisan ideology, while mine are independent and often disagree with those on both ends.

2. You have convinced yourself that you and your end of the spectrum have all the answers, while I'm convinced that the best and longest-lasting answers can easily come from both ends of the spectrum, depending on the situation.

3. You're quick to utilize personal attacks, insults and partisan thought, while I have no such interest in doing so, because I'm more interested in fixing problems than in "beating" the other "side".

4. Your thought processes exist within an ideological vacuum, while I believe that ideological vacuums only serve to depress intellectual growth, retard dynamic thought and distort both perceptions & critical thinking skills.

5. You are incurious. I am curious.

6. You're ready and willing to deploy spin, diversion, deflection, straw man arguments and intellectual dishonesty in the goal of "winning" some kind of argument, while I feel those tactics do absolutely nothing to advance the conversation.

7. You perceive the political landscape as Left vs. Right (or some similar paradigm). I perceive it as hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends vs. a majority of the country.

Interestingly, I suspect any response you have to this post will include at least one of the seven elements above. This is why I find the behaviors of hardcore partisan ideology so fascinating as an amateur psychological / sociological / anthropological study.
.

I'm incurious? You are one inflated gas bag. You are guilty of the worse character traits you accuse others of. What a hypocrite. You use the CDZ to throw shit at people?

You are the most hardcore person here, you pretend to view us peons from Mt. Olympus and have already declared yourself the victor no matter what. How petty and cheap. Apparently you didn't want to discuss anything here, just set yourself up as Grand Master.

Phony bastard.

The sad truth of what is at the core of human thought and our struggle to grasp what is real and what is only our own fears and paranoia projected onto the world around us, we are all phony with each other to some degree in almost every situation.

The you that speaks to the preacher at the church house door is not the you that was getting drunk and talking shit to some ass holes last Friday night at the pool hall. The you that pals around with your buddies shooting pool and playing Texas Hold 'em is not the you that kisses your kids good night and hugs your wife and tells her what a lucky man you are.

We all have our masks we wear to 'pass' among different social circles.

It is a hard thing to learn how to set those masks aside and engage in honest discussion.

 

[Mac1958]

Interesting how quickly we veered away from the thread topic.

This is an issue that is plaguing both our political processes and (now) our culture.

Would anyone like to offer some honest, candid, non-ideologically-based input?
.

My take is that people have some sort of innate need to be part of a tribe. Since we do not form our tribes through inbreeding as in the Middle East, people's search for one ends up in the political sphere. Especially considering that our very political system encourages people to see the world in binary, simple minded people decide to play cowboys and Indians by joining the tribe they invest with a sense of good and then battling against the tribe they see as evil.

Lack of in intelligence + excessive need to conform to tribe = extreme partisanship.

The intelligence part is one of the most fascinating elements of this for me. There are people who are perfectly intelligent who fall victim to it. My best friend is brilliant, the most intelligent person I've ever known, and he's a full-blown Trump supporter. And other very intelligent people I know are on the opposite end.

I really think that it transcends intelligence, maybe running parallel to it, like it's more of an affliction than a function of intelligence.
.

I think you're right that this transcends intelligence. Intelligence is like many abilities or talents, you have to hone it or it becomes a rusty tool.

I think there is something to the idea that it's a tribe thing- it's natural to want to belong- but I can't help but think that the biggest cause of the problem is just plain laziness.

Yeah, I think that intellectual laziness plays a role. That may be related to the tribe issue, because we may be prone to defaulting to the path of least resistance, partially because we don't want to annoy other members of our tribe.
.

 

[Mac1958]

We are already nearing that limit of the tolerance envelope as the partisan Democrats demonstrate with their insane behavior of late.

Doesn't look like he wants an actual discussion but started the thread to declare superiority over ideologues and only he can define them. Pretends it's all a matter of partisanship and refuses to process anything that begs differ no matter what you say.

I have had such discussions with Mac before, so I suspect that you are wrong on that point and he wrong about you as well on other points.

To have a useful conversation with someone you disagree with, you have to trust the other person long enough to hear what they say and internalize it to understand what they are trying to say but in their own words you have to digest.

If you two would chill out and speak to each other with more respect and charity, (that is the point to the Christmas season isnt it, btw?) I think you two could be greatly benefited from what you might learn from one another.

But as it typically is, I am the worst sinner of us all on this issue, and I am trying to learn to trust my ideological opposites once again as well.

As you know, I'm more than happy to have a conversation with anyone who can keep their emotions out of it and just avoid personal attacks and insults.

Once that stuff starts, I lose interest pretty quickly.

I started this thread in the CDZ for a reason.
.

 

[JimBowie1958]

In our minds we think of ourselves as "Good Ole Boys" like this song expresses.



But in the minds of those who work off of different values and different sets of assumptions and azioms we sound like this.



I strongly suspect that the truth lies somewhere in the middle of all that hyperbole.