CDZ Partisan ideology makes people ugly.

[Coyote]

Well, there have certainly been many cases of those who were true believers in one thing turning around and becoming a true believer in something else.

As such, my question would be to ask whether they have, indeed, displayed the capacity to change their thought patterns or whether they were simply hardwired towards being a true believer in the first place?

Whoa, like an addictive personality. Cigarettes, booze, drugs, etc.

Interesting.
.

Yep.

I see us as all having an innate struggle between our sense of being an individual and of being part of a group. We need that group bond in order to survive, but have the sort of self-awareness necessary to act as an individual, so there is always a tension between the two.

I imagine something of a bell curve where those at one end of the spectrum you have the sociopaths, the the heretics and the loners, and at the other end you have the fundamentalists, the totalitarians, and the sheeple. Too much individuality leads to dysfunction, but so does excessive conformity -- mob behavior and whatnot.

Man oh man, just looking around the board right now.

As this stuff just keeps getting worse, I'm seeing things written that would never even enter my head, not in a thousand years.

It's troubling, frankly. Every time we hit a new low, it's only temporary.
.

I've never seen so much sheer hate, uglyness, vitriole, labeling, and an utter unwillingness to discuss as I have lately. It's very dispiriting and it is coming from both sides. There seem to be no brakes.

1. How has it come to this?
2. What good can come from this behavior, specifically?
3. What, if anything, can be done to reverse this ugly course?

It certainly isn't a new phenomenum, in fact I'm surprised no one complained until now. It's been getting worse and worse and worse each year.

1. How has it come to this? Good question. A fundamental lack of manners and compassion disquised anti-PC maybe? An inability to recognize that just because you CAN - doesn't mean you should? You can blame the idiot that behaved that way, but don't overlook the role of the media (all kinds) and the unwillingness of the audience to condemn these kinds of attacks a culture that seems to glorify this behavior as "free speech".

2. What good can come from it? I honestly don't know. The only good I can think of is that it puts sunlight on some truly deplorable behavior and challenges us, on all sides to condemn it.

3. Condemnation. Stepping in and making a difference. Not being a standerby and allowing it. Not DEFENDING IT. You don't have to be violent. Whether it's Ivanka Trump or Michelle Obama or a Jewish guy with a yarmuka or a Muslim woman with a hajib - it should be excused. You can't be saying Trump caused it with his ugly rhetoric as an excuse for bad behavior. Teaching kids that this is not how to express political displeasure. Publically humiliating the attacker with condemnation.




Others have mentioned "tribalism". Humans are social animals - we're hardwired to want to be part of a group. Unfortunately a lot of "bonding rituals" include bullying and violence towards outsiders to solidify the group.

You may disagree with this, but there goes: On one hand, I agree, this over-the-top snap-back against PC has led to, enabled, and allowed for some horrible, counter-productive behaviors. And no one is more virulently anti-PC than I am. That seems to be an ongoing problem in this country - we just love to kneejerk at every opportunity, and Trump really played on that. More than anything else, THAT got him into office.

HOWEVER - it would also be a mistake to acknowledge that and then ignore/dismiss the size and passion of the anti-PC'ers. While some of their behaviors have been flat-out wrong, they were and are reacting to something that has been taking place and growing for decades. It's real, and it's not going anywhere. I think that those who push PC are as responsible for Trump as anyone else. It's time they admit that and stop pushing it.

Regarding what can be done, my guess is that it has reached a point where a grass roots effort like that just isn't enough. The hatred on both sides is just too intense for that. My guess is that it will take people recognized as "leaders" - political, business, sports, pop culture, music, all of it - to be brave and use their position and visibility and influence to call it out and condemn it in no uncertain terms.

Look at it another way: Companies pay "celebrities" millions and millions to promote and endorse their products because they know the public will react to those endorsements. Well, maybe those same people could leverage their considerable influence to deal with the hatred that has infected this country. It shouldn't be that way - the thought of "celebrities" (plus more serious leaders, such as politics & business) coming to the rescue is repellent to me - but I think that's where we are.
.

You make some really good points Mac. And I agree - the PC-extremists are just as much to blame but I wonder if too much is made of PC because it seems like what used to be called good manners and being nice now gets automatically labeled "PC" - sometimes I don't even what PC is half the time.

I think you might be right there, but in a sense - you're asking celebrities to be role models, and that is appropriate.

 

[Mac1958]

Whoa, like an addictive personality. Cigarettes, booze, drugs, etc.

Interesting.
.

Yep.

I see us as all having an innate struggle between our sense of being an individual and of being part of a group. We need that group bond in order to survive, but have the sort of self-awareness necessary to act as an individual, so there is always a tension between the two.

I imagine something of a bell curve where those at one end of the spectrum you have the sociopaths, the the heretics and the loners, and at the other end you have the fundamentalists, the totalitarians, and the sheeple. Too much individuality leads to dysfunction, but so does excessive conformity -- mob behavior and whatnot.

Man oh man, just looking around the board right now.

As this stuff just keeps getting worse, I'm seeing things written that would never even enter my head, not in a thousand years.

It's troubling, frankly. Every time we hit a new low, it's only temporary.
.

I've never seen so much sheer hate, uglyness, vitriole, labeling, and an utter unwillingness to discuss as I have lately. It's very dispiriting and it is coming from both sides. There seem to be no brakes.

1. How has it come to this?
2. What good can come from this behavior, specifically?
3. What, if anything, can be done to reverse this ugly course?

It certainly isn't a new phenomenum, in fact I'm surprised no one complained until now. It's been getting worse and worse and worse each year.

1. How has it come to this? Good question. A fundamental lack of manners and compassion disquised anti-PC maybe? An inability to recognize that just because you CAN - doesn't mean you should? You can blame the idiot that behaved that way, but don't overlook the role of the media (all kinds) and the unwillingness of the audience to condemn these kinds of attacks a culture that seems to glorify this behavior as "free speech".

2. What good can come from it? I honestly don't know. The only good I can think of is that it puts sunlight on some truly deplorable behavior and challenges us, on all sides to condemn it.

3. Condemnation. Stepping in and making a difference. Not being a standerby and allowing it. Not DEFENDING IT. You don't have to be violent. Whether it's Ivanka Trump or Michelle Obama or a Jewish guy with a yarmuka or a Muslim woman with a hajib - it should be excused. You can't be saying Trump caused it with his ugly rhetoric as an excuse for bad behavior. Teaching kids that this is not how to express political displeasure. Publically humiliating the attacker with condemnation.




Others have mentioned "tribalism". Humans are social animals - we're hardwired to want to be part of a group. Unfortunately a lot of "bonding rituals" include bullying and violence towards outsiders to solidify the group.

You may disagree with this, but there goes: On one hand, I agree, this over-the-top snap-back against PC has led to, enabled, and allowed for some horrible, counter-productive behaviors. And no one is more virulently anti-PC than I am. That seems to be an ongoing problem in this country - we just love to kneejerk at every opportunity, and Trump really played on that. More than anything else, THAT got him into office.

HOWEVER - it would also be a mistake to acknowledge that and then ignore/dismiss the size and passion of the anti-PC'ers. While some of their behaviors have been flat-out wrong, they were and are reacting to something that has been taking place and growing for decades. It's real, and it's not going anywhere. I think that those who push PC are as responsible for Trump as anyone else. It's time they admit that and stop pushing it.

Regarding what can be done, my guess is that it has reached a point where a grass roots effort like that just isn't enough. The hatred on both sides is just too intense for that. My guess is that it will take people recognized as "leaders" - political, business, sports, pop culture, music, all of it - to be brave and use their position and visibility and influence to call it out and condemn it in no uncertain terms.

Look at it another way: Companies pay "celebrities" millions and millions to promote and endorse their products because they know the public will react to those endorsements. Well, maybe those same people could leverage their considerable influence to deal with the hatred that has infected this country. It shouldn't be that way - the thought of "celebrities" (plus more serious leaders, such as politics & business) coming to the rescue is repellent to me - but I think that's where we are.
.

You make some really good points Mac. And I agree - the PC-extremists are just as much to blame but I wonder if too much is made of PC because it seems like what used to be called good manners and being nice now gets automatically labeled "PC" - sometimes I don't even what PC is half the time.

I think you might be right there, but in a sense - you're asking celebrities to be role models, and that is appropriate.

Thank you. I think PC goes far beyond manners, though. Quick examples, and I could definitely go on:

1. The lives of millions, generations of American blacks being damaged by people who enable bad behaviors by spinning and deflecting and excusing them. Any serious criticism is met with "you're just a racist", a tactic specifically meant to put the target on the defensive and avoid honest conversation on a critical topic.

2. College kids being enabled, even supported, in shutting and shouting down all opposing ideas during the very best time of their lives for hearing it and seriously considering it. We are closing young, fertile, brilliant minds at the very time we should be guaranteeing that they are exposed to all ideas and possibilities.

3. Shutting and shouting down all opposing thought with screams of racist, Nazi, fascist, homophobe, misogynist, on and on, accomplishing nothing but avoiding honest, introspective communication - the kind of communication that must happen if we're ever going to heal the divisions in this country that are only getting deeper and deeper.

Regarding "asking celebrities to be role models" - oh yeah, believe me, I know you're right. My thought process on this (such as it is) is that we have become such a shallow, celebrity-driven, media-driven culture that we might be able to leverage those very things to right the ship. If we're going to give these people such wealth and such (damn near literal) worship, then let's leverage this worship in a positive way. Kind of a Hail Mary pass, I have to admit.
.

 

[Divine Wind]

....1. How has it come to this?
2. What good can come from this behavior, specifically?
3. What, if anything, can be done to reverse this ugly course?

JimBowie1958, you and I began a conversation on this yesterday.
.

1) American politics has been moving toward extremes for as long as I can remember. Each election season sees it worsen.

2) None. Verbal abuse as happened to Ivanka's family will escalate to violence. After a few Americans on both sides of the political divide are killed over politics, most Americans may push for more common sense.

3) Nothing. It's human nature. Let it run its course...and buy a kevlar vest.

 

[Mac1958]

....1. How has it come to this?
2. What good can come from this behavior, specifically?
3. What, if anything, can be done to reverse this ugly course?

JimBowie1958, you and I began a conversation on this yesterday.
.

1) American politics has been moving toward extremes for as long as I can remember. Each election season sees it worsen.

2) None. Verbal abuse as happened to Ivanka's family will escalate to violence. After a few Americans on both sides of the political divide are killed over politics, most Americans may push fo r more common sense.

3) Nothing. It's human nature. Let it run its course...and buy a kevlar vest.

Excellent, thank you.
.

 

[Dragonlady]

Well, that didn't take long.

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

Bullshit. Trump set the tone - lying, insulting his opponents. The tone and the attitude started at the top.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

 

[Mac1958]

Well, that didn't take long.

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.People at the top are right in the middle of it. .

Bullshit. Trump set the tone - lying, insulting his opponents. The tone and the attitude started at the top.

Both ends of the spectrum are getting nastier and nastier.

And each end should honestly look in the mirror and clean their own house before pointing the finger at the other.
.

 

[candycorn]

Well, that didn't take long.

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

 

[Mac1958]

Well, that didn't take long.

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

 

[candycorn]

Well, that didn't take long.

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

And of course you can't point to a similar instance on the left.

 

[Mac1958]

Well, that didn't take long.

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

And of course you can't point to a similar instance on the left.

Of hate? Are you kidding? You can't think of hate from your side?

My guess is that you would perceive hate from your side as some kind of "justifiable passion".

This is why it's so difficult for me to have these conversations. We're speaking two different languages.

I have the same problem with your ideological counterparts.
.

 

[Divine Wind]

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

Didn't Trump refute the "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim" meme? What does that tell you?

 

[Divine Wind]

Well, that didn't take long.

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

Agreed. When one side claims they are lily white pure and that the other side is evil haters, we know they are liars and part of the problem.

 

[Mac1958]

Well, that didn't take long.

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

Agreed. When one side claims they are lily white pure and that the other side is evil haters, we know they are liars and part of the problem.

And I run into this constantly. One eye open only. I don't know how to communicate with people like that.

HOWEVER, I do think that people like that are sincere in most cases. And that is why I am convinced that commitment to a partisan ideology distorts both perceptions and analytical processes.
.

 

[Divine Wind]

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

Agreed. When one side claims they are lily white pure and that the other side is evil haters, we know they are liars and part of the problem.

And I run into this constantly. One eye open only. I don't know how to communicate with people like that.

HOWEVER, I do think that people like that are sincere in most cases. And that is why I am convinced that commitment to a partisan ideology distorts both perceptions and analytical processes.
.

All you can do is keep doing what you are doing; pointing out the partisanship on both sides have moved toward extremes and that both sides can either choose to move toward the middle or face more years of this crap.

 

[candycorn]

It's just annoying that a candidate runs the ugliest, most divisive campaign in history, and then his supporters complain that people are reacting with complete disgust at his actions. Want to change things? That starts at the top.

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

And of course you can't point to a similar instance on the left.

Of hate? Are you kidding? You can't think of hate from your side?

My guess is that you would perceive hate from your side as some kind of "justifiable passion".

This is why it's so difficult for me to have these conversations. We're speaking two different languages.

I have the same problem with your ideological counterparts.
.

No, I can think of several....probably hundreds... but not to where the leader of the Party says X about the opposition and the rank and file of that party not only disagrees but now basically disavows him.

 

[Mac1958]

I don't think it starts at the top, I think it begins culturally.

People at the top are right in the middle of it.
.

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

And of course you can't point to a similar instance on the left.

Of hate? Are you kidding? You can't think of hate from your side?

My guess is that you would perceive hate from your side as some kind of "justifiable passion".

This is why it's so difficult for me to have these conversations. We're speaking two different languages.

I have the same problem with your ideological counterparts.
.

No, I can think of several....probably hundreds... but not to where the leader of the Party says X about the opposition and the rank and file of that party not only disagrees but now basically disavows him.

I'm glad you put it that way - "rank and file".

Yes, no doubt the rank & file Republicans start to pucker the minute he opens his mouth, specifically because they're mortified that they'll be labeled a racist or homophobe or misogynist or whatever by association, by you-know-who, and have to spend the next X years trying to wipe off the slime.

Has Trump said things that could easily be construed as "hateful" by those who sense political advantage? Yep.

Has Trump, purposely or not, attracted a cadre of old-fashioned, mouth-breathing racists? Yep.

Has Trump done the bare minimum to distance himself from them, for political reasons? Yep.

Is Trump himself a hateful person? Nope. No more than anyone else, especially those who watch their words.

Is one side of the spectrum really more hateful than the other? Nope. The amount of ugliness that exists on both ends is too close to call.

That's why I so often say the two ends of the spectrum have many similarities. Different on the issues, but similar in behaviors.
.

 

[candycorn]

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

And of course you can't point to a similar instance on the left.

Of hate? Are you kidding? You can't think of hate from your side?

My guess is that you would perceive hate from your side as some kind of "justifiable passion".

This is why it's so difficult for me to have these conversations. We're speaking two different languages.

I have the same problem with your ideological counterparts.
.

No, I can think of several....probably hundreds... but not to where the leader of the Party says X about the opposition and the rank and file of that party not only disagrees but now basically disavows him.

I'm glad you put it that way - "rank and file".

Yes, no doubt the rank & file Republicans start to pucker the minute he opens his mouth, specifically because they're mortified that they'll be labeled a racist or homophobe or misogynist or whatever by association, by you-know-who, and have to spend the next X years trying to wipe off the slime.

Has Trump said things that could easily be construed as "hateful" by those who sense political advantage? Yep.

Has Trump, purposely or not, attracted a cadre of old-fashioned, mouth-breathing racists? Yep.

Has Trump done the bare minimum to distance himself from them, for political reasons? Yep.

Is Trump himself a hateful person? Nope. No more than anyone else, especially those who watch their words.

Is one side of the spectrum really more hateful than the other? Nope. The amount of ugliness that exists on both ends is too close to call.

That's why I so often say the two ends of the spectrum have many similarities. Different on the issues, but similar in behaviors.
.

I’ll agree with you on that. It’s like looking at the letter “c” as a single line that is curved…the ends are closer to one another than the middle. The people at the ends are more alike one another than those in the middle. Where I think you have blinders is that if you place yourself in the middle and look out at the “c”..you’ll find much more of the people who make up the right wing toward the end than the left.
You seem to think everyone to your left and everyone to your right are the same (and of course only comment on the behavior of those not the left).

 

[candycorn]

When John McCain told that woman at his town hall that Mr. Obama was an American and a good man....that was a good sign. Do you agree?
Tell us...where is the GOP positioned today relative to that comment by Mr. McCain? There is your answer as to who is advancing the agenda of hate and intolerance

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

And of course you can't point to a similar instance on the left.

Of hate? Are you kidding? You can't think of hate from your side?

My guess is that you would perceive hate from your side as some kind of "justifiable passion".

This is why it's so difficult for me to have these conversations. We're speaking two different languages.

I have the same problem with your ideological counterparts.
.

No, I can think of several....probably hundreds... but not to where the leader of the Party says X about the opposition and the rank and file of that party not only disagrees but now basically disavows him.

I'm glad you put it that way - "rank and file".

Yes, no doubt the rank & file Republicans start to pucker the minute he opens his mouth, specifically because they're mortified that they'll be labeled a racist or homophobe or misogynist or whatever by association, by you-know-who, and have to spend the next X years trying to wipe off the slime.

Has Trump said things that could easily be construed as "hateful" by those who sense political advantage? Yep.

Has Trump, purposely or not, attracted a cadre of old-fashioned, mouth-breathing racists? Yep.

Has Trump done the bare minimum to distance himself from them, for political reasons? Yep.

Is Trump himself a hateful person? Nope. No more than anyone else, especially those who watch their words.

Is one side of the spectrum really more hateful than the other? Nope. The amount of ugliness that exists on both ends is too close to call.

That's why I so often say the two ends of the spectrum have many similarities. Different on the issues, but similar in behaviors.
.

You don’t find Trump more hateful than others? Really?

 

[Mac1958]

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
.

And of course you can't point to a similar instance on the left.

Of hate? Are you kidding? You can't think of hate from your side?

My guess is that you would perceive hate from your side as some kind of "justifiable passion".

This is why it's so difficult for me to have these conversations. We're speaking two different languages.

I have the same problem with your ideological counterparts.
.

No, I can think of several....probably hundreds... but not to where the leader of the Party says X about the opposition and the rank and file of that party not only disagrees but now basically disavows him.

I'm glad you put it that way - "rank and file".

Yes, no doubt the rank & file Republicans start to pucker the minute he opens his mouth, specifically because they're mortified that they'll be labeled a racist or homophobe or misogynist or whatever by association, by you-know-who, and have to spend the next X years trying to wipe off the slime.

Has Trump said things that could easily be construed as "hateful" by those who sense political advantage? Yep.

Has Trump, purposely or not, attracted a cadre of old-fashioned, mouth-breathing racists? Yep.

Has Trump done the bare minimum to distance himself from them, for political reasons? Yep.

Is Trump himself a hateful person? Nope. No more than anyone else, especially those who watch their words.

Is one side of the spectrum really more hateful than the other? Nope. The amount of ugliness that exists on both ends is too close to call.

That's why I so often say the two ends of the spectrum have many similarities. Different on the issues, but similar in behaviors.
.

I’ll agree with you on that. It’s like looking at the letter “c” as a single line that is curved…the ends are closer to one another than the middle. The people at the ends are more alike one another than those in the middle. Where I think you have blinders is that if you place yourself in the middle and look out at the “c”..you’ll find much more of the people who make up the right wing toward the end than the left.
You seem to think everyone to your left and everyone to your right are the same (and of course only comment on the behavior of those not the left).

No, there's a big difference between being "the same" and sharing many behaviors. In terms of both issues and their general approach to things, the two ends are definitely different. In fact, I see the "the two parties are the same" stuff and I think that's silly. Their issues are clearly far apart and becoming more so, even if both parties are controlled by money, etc.

But as those two ends of the "c" get closer, the behaviors they do share become more similar, and it becomes more and more difficult to communicate with them for the same reasons. The problem is that nothing of lasting substance can really be improved unless and until walls on both sides come down and serious communication starts.

All I care about is fixing things, improving things. Little partisan victories for their own sake mean nothing to me.
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[Mac1958]

On one side, yes.

And there is plenty of hate and intolerance on the other end, as well. True, real, seething, guttural hatred.

All one needs to see the hatred on both ends is to have both eyes open, observing honestly.
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And of course you can't point to a similar instance on the left.

Of hate? Are you kidding? You can't think of hate from your side?

My guess is that you would perceive hate from your side as some kind of "justifiable passion".

This is why it's so difficult for me to have these conversations. We're speaking two different languages.

I have the same problem with your ideological counterparts.
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No, I can think of several....probably hundreds... but not to where the leader of the Party says X about the opposition and the rank and file of that party not only disagrees but now basically disavows him.

I'm glad you put it that way - "rank and file".

Yes, no doubt the rank & file Republicans start to pucker the minute he opens his mouth, specifically because they're mortified that they'll be labeled a racist or homophobe or misogynist or whatever by association, by you-know-who, and have to spend the next X years trying to wipe off the slime.

Has Trump said things that could easily be construed as "hateful" by those who sense political advantage? Yep.

Has Trump, purposely or not, attracted a cadre of old-fashioned, mouth-breathing racists? Yep.

Has Trump done the bare minimum to distance himself from them, for political reasons? Yep.

Is Trump himself a hateful person? Nope. No more than anyone else, especially those who watch their words.

Is one side of the spectrum really more hateful than the other? Nope. The amount of ugliness that exists on both ends is too close to call.

That's why I so often say the two ends of the spectrum have many similarities. Different on the issues, but similar in behaviors.
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You don’t find Trump more hateful than others? Really?

No, I really don't. That doesn't mean he is without bigotry, but no one is. He just doesn't have a filter, and that's one of the reasons I've felt he shouldn't have that job.
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