Palestinians demand return of "their" heritage -- Dead Sea Scolls

[Phoenall]

Eloy, et al,

No, I did not say that at all.

Eloy, et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

(COMMENT)

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination. There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians. You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles (almost to the outskirts of Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo) and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination. It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

(COMMENT)

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs. The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria (to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan). But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate.

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word.
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque
​

Most Respectfully,
R

You gave a whole list of places which you associate with particular peoples but you have a problem accepting that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in Palestine where Palestinians worship.

(COMMENT)

Who maintained the Mosque?
Who restored the mosque?
Who is working on the Mosque today?

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

WHAT INTERNATIONAL LAW IS THAT THEN, GIVE FULL DETAILS ?

 

[Eloy]

You are perfectly welcome to follow the tenets of my religious faith (not that Christians and Muslims DO follow the tenets of the Jewish religious faith -- they do not), aka share in that tradition. It is actually AWESOME that you value the gift that G-d gave to the Jewish people and to all humanity with His Teaching or Torah (not that either Christians or Muslims DO value the gift of the Torah -- they do not.)

However, that does not give you leave to usurp and take ownership of OUR cultural heritage. The cultural heritage of each culture belongs to the culture which created it and must be under the guardianship and caretakership of that culture. The Jewish people have the ONLY claim to ownership of JEWISH historical and religious writings.

To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Shall Israel take over the guardianship of Mecca and Medina? Shall Canada take over the guardianship of Egyptian cultural heritage? Shall Japan control Stonehenge or the tribal burial grounds of the Sioux People or the sacred space of Teotihuacan?

Should Israel be in control of Al-Aqsa?! Should Israel be the custodian of Al-Aqsa?!



And as an aside, no, Islam does NOT except the legitimacy of Torah and Tanakh. Islam rejects it as corrupt and in error.

Please stop usurping the ancient Jewish writings for modern Jews alone and denying the Jewish roots of Christian people.

 

[Eloy]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, you will have to teach me here.

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

(COMMENT)

Exactly what "International Law gives special authority to Jordan over Jerusalem?

Most Respectfully,
R

The Waqf (Religious Trust) Ministry of Jordan held control of the al-Aqsa Mosque until the 1967 war when it came into the possession of Israel. Israel transferred the control of the mosque to the Jordanian/Palestinian-led Islamic Waqf.

 

[RoccoR]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, I see...

Eloy, et al,

Yes, you will have to teach me here.

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

(COMMENT)

Exactly what "International Law gives special authority to Jordan over Jerusalem?

Most Respectfully,
R

The Waqf (Religious Trust) Ministry of Jordan held control of the al-Aqsa Mosque until the 1967 war when it came into the possession of Israel. Israel transferred the control of the mosque to the Jordanian/Palestinian-led Islamic Waqf.

(COMMENT)

There are a couple developments you might want to consider.

• When Jordan annex the West Bank (including Jerusalem) in April 1950, Jerusalem fell under Jordanian sovereign law (not international law) and thus the various countries ministries.

• In 1967, when Israel took effective control, the Jordanian ministries lost all "ability" to impose Islamic Law.

• In 1988, when Jordan severed all political ties and abandon the West Bank (including Jerusalem), the Jordanian ministries lost all "authority" to impose Islamic Law.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

You are perfectly welcome to follow the tenets of my religious faith (not that Christians and Muslims DO follow the tenets of the Jewish religious faith -- they do not), aka share in that tradition. It is actually AWESOME that you value the gift that G-d gave to the Jewish people and to all humanity with His Teaching or Torah (not that either Christians or Muslims DO value the gift of the Torah -- they do not.)

However, that does not give you leave to usurp and take ownership of OUR cultural heritage. The cultural heritage of each culture belongs to the culture which created it and must be under the guardianship and caretakership of that culture. The Jewish people have the ONLY claim to ownership of JEWISH historical and religious writings.

To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Shall Israel take over the guardianship of Mecca and Medina? Shall Canada take over the guardianship of Egyptian cultural heritage? Shall Japan control Stonehenge or the tribal burial grounds of the Sioux People or the sacred space of Teotihuacan?

Should Israel be in control of Al-Aqsa?! Should Israel be the custodian of Al-Aqsa?!



And as an aside, no, Islam does NOT except the legitimacy of Torah and Tanakh. Islam rejects it as corrupt and in error.

Please stop usurping the ancient Jewish writings for modern Jews alone and denying the Jewish roots of Christian people.

What Jewish roots are those then as Christianity was created by Romans and Greeks. The ancient Jewish writings are exactly that Ancient Jewish writings. They are not ancient Christian writings or ancient islamic writings are they as niether was formed until at least 400 years after the ancient Jewish Writings were taken to Qumran.


SO YOU STOP USURPING THE JEWISH RIGHTS TO CLAIM THEIR ANCIENT ARTIFACTS AS THEIRS AND STOP TRYING TO DENY THEM THEIR HUMAN, CIVIL, RELIGIOUS AND LEGAL RIGHTS ALL THE TIME

 

[Phoenall]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, you will have to teach me here.

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

(COMMENT)

Exactly what "International Law gives special authority to Jordan over Jerusalem?

Most Respectfully,
R

The Waqf (Religious Trust) Ministry of Jordan held control of the al-Aqsa Mosque until the 1967 war when it came into the possession of Israel. Israel transferred the control of the mosque to the Jordanian/Palestinian-led Islamic Waqf.

Not an International law in sight, so why are you deflecting.

Remember that Jordan also stole the land from the Jewish owners in 1948/1949, or would this mean that you will have to change your POV. Any other nation would have evicted the arab muslims, demolished the carbuncles and re-built the Temple and told the muslims to take a hike, but once again the Jews played Mr nice guy and gave the muslims some leeway to meet and debate peace and borders. NEVER AGAIN WILL WE THE WORLD TRUST MUSLIMS

 

[Shusha]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, I see...

Eloy, et al,

Yes, you will have to teach me here.

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

(COMMENT)

Exactly what "International Law gives special authority to Jordan over Jerusalem?

Most Respectfully,
R

The Waqf (Religious Trust) Ministry of Jordan held control of the al-Aqsa Mosque until the 1967 war when it came into the possession of Israel. Israel transferred the control of the mosque to the Jordanian/Palestinian-led Islamic Waqf.

(COMMENT)

There are a couple developments you might want to consider.

• When Jordan annex the West Bank (including Jerusalem) in April 1950, Jerusalem fell under Jordanian sovereign law (not international law) and thus the various countries ministries.

• In 1967, when Israel took effective control, the Jordanian ministries lost all "ability" to impose Islamic Law.

• In 1988, when Jordan severed all political ties and abandon the West Bank (including Jerusalem), the Jordanian ministries lost all "authority" to impose Islamic Law.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

I think Eloy is thinking of the Jordan/Israel Peace Treaty Article 9 which reads:

ARTICLE 9

PLACES OF HISTORICAL AND RELIGIOUS SIGNIFICANCE

1. Each party will provide freedom of access to places of religious and historical significance.
   
   
2. In this regard, in accordance with the Washington Declaration, Israel respects the present special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in Muslim Holy shrines in Jerusalem. When negotiations on the permanent status will take place, Israel will give high priority to the Jordanian historic role in these shrines.
   
   
3. The Parties will act together to promote interfaith relations among the three monotheistic religions, with the aim of working towards religious understanding, moral commitment, freedom of religious worship, and tolerance and peace.
   
   

Note that Israel did not transfer actual control or sovereignty of the Muslim Holy shrines to Jordan. Israel still holds both control and sovereignty.

Israeli law upholds this with the Protection of Holy Places Law, 1967.

1. The Holy Places shall be protected from desecration and any other violation and from anything likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the different religions to the places sacred to them or their feelings with regard to those places.
   
2. 1. Whosoever desecrates or otherwise violates a Holy Place shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of seven years.
      
   2. Whosoever does anything likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the different religions to the places sacred to them or their feelings with regard to those places shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of five years.
3. This Law shall add to, and not derogate from, any other law.
   
4. The Minister of Religious Affairs is charged with the implementation of this Law, and he may, after consultation with, or upon the proposal of, representatives of the religions concerned and with the consent of the Minister of Justice make regulations as to any matter relating to such implementation.
   
   
5. This Law shall come into force on the date of its adoption by the Knesset.

Which was upheld in The Temple Mount Faithful vs. Tzahi Hanegbi:

‘every Jew has the right to ascend the Temple Mount, to pray on it, and to commune with his Creator. That is part of the freedom of religious worship; that is part of the freedom of expression. At the same time, this right, like other basic rights, is not an absolute right, and in a place at which the likelihood of damage to the public peace and even to human life is almost certain – this can justify limiting the freedom of religious worship and also limiting the freedom of expression’

So, to reiterate: International Law upholds the right of ALL peoples to religious freedom and access to Holy Places. Israel retains control and sovereignty over the Holy Places. Israel respects the special role of Jordan in the Muslim Shrines.

 

[Eloy]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, I see...

Eloy, et al,

Yes, you will have to teach me here.

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

(COMMENT)

Exactly what "International Law gives special authority to Jordan over Jerusalem?

Most Respectfully,
R

The Waqf (Religious Trust) Ministry of Jordan held control of the al-Aqsa Mosque until the 1967 war when it came into the possession of Israel. Israel transferred the control of the mosque to the Jordanian/Palestinian-led Islamic Waqf.

(COMMENT)

There are a couple developments you might want to consider.

• When Jordan annex the West Bank (including Jerusalem) in April 1950, Jerusalem fell under Jordanian sovereign law (not international law) and thus the various countries ministries.

• In 1967, when Israel took effective control, the Jordanian ministries lost all "ability" to impose Islamic Law.

• In 1988, when Jordan severed all political ties and abandon the West Bank (including Jerusalem), the Jordanian ministries lost all "authority" to impose Islamic Law.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel does not contest that the Islamic waqf trust has authority over the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Do you?

 

[Phoenall]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, I see...

Eloy, et al,

Yes, you will have to teach me here.

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

(COMMENT)

Exactly what "International Law gives special authority to Jordan over Jerusalem?

Most Respectfully,
R

The Waqf (Religious Trust) Ministry of Jordan held control of the al-Aqsa Mosque until the 1967 war when it came into the possession of Israel. Israel transferred the control of the mosque to the Jordanian/Palestinian-led Islamic Waqf.

(COMMENT)

There are a couple developments you might want to consider.

• When Jordan annex the West Bank (including Jerusalem) in April 1950, Jerusalem fell under Jordanian sovereign law (not international law) and thus the various countries ministries.

• In 1967, when Israel took effective control, the Jordanian ministries lost all "ability" to impose Islamic Law.

• In 1988, when Jordan severed all political ties and abandon the West Bank (including Jerusalem), the Jordanian ministries lost all "authority" to impose Islamic Law.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel does not contest that the Islamic waqf trust has authority over the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Do you?

Only partial authority, and not full authority as the treaty says

In this regard, in accordance with the Washington Declaration, Israel respects the present special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in Muslim Holy shrines in Jerusalem. When negotiations on the permanent status will take place, Israel will give high priority to the Jordanian historic role in these shrines.




They cant give up all control and then come back and say we made a mistake can we now have it back ?

 

[Shusha]

Israel does not contest that the Islamic waqf trust has authority over the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Do you?

You over-simplify. Israel has actual sovereignty over the Temple Mount at this time and asserts her sovereignty there on a daily basis. Israel also asserts her sovereign claim over all of Jerusalem in theory and in practice.

Israel has both a legal agreement (peace treaty) and a gentleman's agreement with Jordan that the Islamic Waqf has some authority to manage the Muslim shrines on the Holy Site.

Even though international and Israeli law clearly states that people of ALL religious faiths have the right to access their places of worship, Israel VOLUNTARILY restricts the rights of the Jewish people in order to pacify (in its most literal sense) Muslims who feel that using murderous violence to prevent people from worshiping G-d is both appropriate and necessary.

The Holy Places MUST remain under the sovereignty of Israel because only Israel is capable of realizing the morally correct attitude that everyone must have freedom of religion and freedom to worship.

 

[montelatici]

What hubris. Only Israel is morally correct. Sheesh.

 

[Eloy]

Israel does not contest that the Islamic waqf trust has authority over the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Do you?

You over-simplify. Israel has actual sovereignty over the Temple Mount at this time and asserts her sovereignty there on a daily basis. Israel also asserts her sovereign claim over all of Jerusalem in theory and in practice.

Israel has both a legal agreement (peace treaty) and a gentleman's agreement with Jordan that the Islamic Waqf has some authority to manage the Muslim shrines on the Holy Site.

Even though international and Israeli law clearly states that people of ALL religious faiths have the right to access their places of worship, Israel VOLUNTARILY restricts the rights of the Jewish people in order to pacify (in its most literal sense) Muslims who feel that using murderous violence to prevent people from worshiping G-d is both appropriate and necessary.

The Holy Places MUST remain under the sovereignty of Israel because only Israel is capable of realizing the morally correct attitude that everyone must have freedom of religion and freedom to worship.

What you write is very ideologically based. When Israel occupied Jerusalem in June 1967, the issue of Jews entering the area of the Al Aqsa Mosque was indefinitely postponed as a result of a ruling by the Chief Rabbinate on 10th June 1967. It ruled that because the location is holy to Jews, no religious Jew is allowed to set foot on any of the area that is referred to as the Temple Mount by Jews in order not to defile it. The statement said: "In view of the fact that the holiness of the area never ceases, it is forbidden to ascend the Temple Mount until the Temple is built."
The Israeli Chief Rabbinate and the Temple Mount Question
The unique situation at Al-Aqsa compound, where the Islamic Waqf — an affiliate of the Ministry of Awqaf in Jordan — is entrusted by the Muslim world to administer and control the entire site together with the Israelis. With this understanding, there is no problem concerning access to the Al Aqsa Mosque and its surrounding compound. Al-Aqsa has banned non-Muslim prayer since 1187. Only trouble-makers say differently.

 

[Hollie]

What hubris. Only Israel is morally correct. Sheesh.

As compared to Islamic fascists, yes, Israel is the obvious choice.

 

[Shusha]

What hubris. Only Israel is morally correct. Sheesh.

You need to read more carefully. Here is what I said: only Israel is capable of realizing the morally correct attitude that everyone must have freedom of religion and freedom to worship

Do you, or do you not believe that everyone must have freedom to worship and practice their religious faith at places which are Holy to them? Yes or no? Do you or do you not believe that this is the morally correct way of being? Yes or no?

Who is capable of realizing (bringing about) religious freedom for everyone?

Certainly not the Muslims at this point in time. They have a hissy fit whenever Jews DARE to even visit our most Holy Place -- let alone worship or hold services there. Let alone re-build a Temple dedicated to G-d, even with the assumption of non-interference with Al-Aqsa and the Dome. They start a freaking murderous intifada on the very pretext that the Jewish people be able to fully access our Holy Place.

The very reason Israel sacrifices both international law and what is morally correct is because it would start a WWIII JIHAD should Israel DARE try to have equality of religion on the Temple Mount. Who are you kidding?

Do you actually believe that Muslims are capable, at this moment, of permitting equality of worship? Give me a break.

 

[Shusha]

Al-Aqsa has banned non-Muslim prayer since 1187. Only trouble-makers say differently.

Either you believe that everyone should have the freedom to worship as they choose in places which have religious significance to them or you do not. Which is it, Eloy ? Do you believe in religious freedom? Or do you believe that only ONE religion has the right to religious freedom?

Because you are given away in your post above. You say that those who want equality and shared access and human rights are trouble-makers. Yep. That's why Israel MUST maintain the Temple Mount.

 

[Eloy]

Al-Aqsa has banned non-Muslim prayer since 1187. Only trouble-makers say differently.

Either you believe that everyone should have the freedom to worship as they choose in places which have religious significance to them or you do not. Which is it, Eloy ? Do you believe in religious freedom? Or do you believe that only ONE religion has the right to religious freedom?

Because you are given away in your post above. You say that those who want equality and shared access and human rights are trouble-makers. Yep. That's why Israel MUST maintain the Temple Mount.

Since Jews are forbidden by ruling of the Chief Rabbinate to set foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade, it follows that only those who want trouble seek to change this status quo.

 

[Shusha]

Since Jews are forbidden by ruling of the Chief Rabbinate to set foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade, it follows that only those who want trouble seek to change this status quo.

The status quo, which states that only SOME people should have religious freedom is morally wrong. Yes or no?

Its a simple question. Answer it.

 

[Shusha]

Its also legally wrong. Just saying.

 

[Eloy]

Since Jews are forbidden by ruling of the Chief Rabbinate to set foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade, it follows that only those who want trouble seek to change this status quo.

The status quo, which states that only SOME people should have religious freedom is morally wrong. Yes or no?

Its a simple question. Answer it.

You got your answer from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who stated "I want to clarify, we strictly keep to the status quo on the Temple Mount."
Israel ‘keeps the status quo on the Temple Mount,’ Netanyahu assures Muslims on Ramadan eve

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al

Oh Please! Give me a break... The Arab Palestinian is one of the last countries in the world that should attempt to criticize Israel on matters of philosophy which addresses questions of morality. The damn Hostile Arab Palestinian damn near perfected the art of kidnapping and murder, hi-jacking, suicide bombings, attacks on school busees and the elderly.

What hubris. Only Israel is morally correct. Sheesh.

(COMMENT)

Since the advent of the San Remo accords, and Articles 13 thru 16 of the Mandate; concern has been expressed for the protection of sacred places and significant archaeological finds.

It is not unusual for the HostileArab Palestinians and Radicalized Islamic Zealots to periodically create an event of a hostile nature -- that spotlights the such places as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock (including the Foundation Stone, and the al-Aqsa Mosque), the Western Wall/Wailing Wall, Jerusalem’s Zion Gate connecting the Old City to Mount Zion.

The Paltue itself is not so much sacred as it is a means of inviting and inciting a disturbance.

Most Respectfully,
R