Palestinians demand return of "their" heritage -- Dead Sea Scolls

[Eloy]

I agree a challenge can be made. But I do not think it is obvious what party has the greater claim.

Most Respectfully
R

Rocco, I'm not sure what you mean by this. The responsibility and guardianship for the preservation of a people's culture resides with the culture which created it. Shifting borders and shifting national allegiances do not change the ownership of a cultural heritage or artifact.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were not created by Jews in the East European shtetls.

 

[Phoenall]

I agree a challenge can be made. But I do not think it is obvious what party has the greater claim.

Most Respectfully
R

Rocco, I'm not sure what you mean by this. The responsibility and guardianship for the preservation of a people's culture resides with the culture which created it. Shifting borders and shifting national allegiances do not change the ownership of a cultural heritage or artifact.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were not created by Jews in the East European shtetls.

Because they did not exist then did they, their forefathers were still in Israel, and Qumran. But this is the new hate site mantra that they are overusing until it has no meaning after being warned about the new anti semitism being anti zionism. Looks like anti East European Jewish shtetls are the even newer anti semitism.


Want tio keep on making that hole you are in bigger and deeper as you are just making a cross for your own back

 

[RoccoR]

Shusha, et al,

Yes, I agree the central issue in regards to the responsibility, guardianship and preservation of a culture (all things being equal and in a prefect world). Unfortunately we don't live in a prefect world.

I agree a challenge can be made. But I do not think it is obvious what party has the greater claim.

Rocco, I'm not sure what you mean by this. The responsibility and guardianship for the preservation of a people's culture resides with the culture which created it. Shifting borders and shifting national allegiances do not change the ownership of a cultural heritage or artifact.

(COMMENT)

"Sovereignty, Independence and Loyalty" are very different constructs from that of "ownership of a culture and the heritage behind that culture."

To be honest, I don't have a clear understanding of what the Arab Palestinian heritage (language, courtesies, traditions, achievements, beliefs, etc) contains that is unique Arab Palestinian --- and not found in any other Arab culture (Arab Lebanese, Arab Jordanians, Arab Iraqi, Arab Egyptian). When we talk about the great Cedar Trees, you know we are talking about Lebanon. When we speak of the ancient Arab Kingdom capital of Petra, you know we are talking about the Kingdom of Jordan. When we speak of the Ziggurats you know we are talking about ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq). When we speak of the Pyramids, we immediately think of the Egyptians.

When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them? I am embarrassed to say that earlier this year, while speaking about the affinity of Arab Palestinian with the rest of the Arab League, I was corrected (politically and culturally). I did not know that Jordan is the only Arab country where Palestinians can become citizens. What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

(COMMENT TWO)

So, I am even more careful now to assert that something is the case, the Arab Palestinians owns something legally...

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Eloy]

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

 

[Phoenall]

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

When did this come about as they never had any soveriegnty over palestine. They migrated illegally starting in 1875 or so, shown by the population growth being 3 to 4 times greater than that of the surrounding arab muslim nations with better health care and medical provisions.

How can it be the 3rd most holiest site in islam when it was not built until after the death of mo'mad. It was desecrated many times by the muslims and still is to this day, left to rot unless they could use it as a political lever against the infidels. The real al aqsa mosque that is the third most holiest site is the one on the road out of Medina. Just follow the path of the night travels.

 

[Shusha]

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

Culturally? The only things I have been able to find are a slight differentiation in the pronunciation of the <g> sound and regional differences in the embroidery patterns on women's dresses which is common to a much wider cultural area.

But this is entirely my point when it comes to "Palestinian" culture. They are attempting to usurp the Jewish culture as their own, as though being "Palestinian" is an outgrowth of being Jewish, rather than a different culture all together.

 

[Shusha]

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

Right. As do the Jewish people.

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

And it absolutely deserves preservation. As does the rest of the Temple Mount for the Jewish people. Part of that is the requirement for Arabs and Muslims worldwide to acknowledge the Jewish history of the place.

 

[Shusha]

The Dead Sea Scrolls were not created by Jews in the East European shtetls.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were created by the Jewish people. What happened to the Jewish people after that time does not in any way lessen either the Jewish people nor their ties to Jewish history.

 

[RoccoR]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

(COMMENT)

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination. There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians. You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles (almost to the outskirts of Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo) and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination. It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

(COMMENT)

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs. The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria (to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan). But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate.

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word.
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Eloy]

The Dead Sea Scrolls were not created by Jews in the East European shtetls.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were created by the Jewish people. What happened to the Jewish people after that time does not in any way lessen either the Jewish people nor their ties to Jewish history.

It looks like the Dead Sea Scrolls were written by a very old Jewish sect. Scholars are of the opinion that this group became extinct soon after the destruction of Herod's Temple by the Romans in 70 CE. The Christians who developed from another Jewish sect would have shared in this tradition. Modern Jews cannot therefore expect to be the sole inheritors of ancient Judaism. For this reason, people speak of the Judeo-Christian tradition. It must be borne in mind that Muslims accept the legitimacy of the Bible and share in that tradition too. The Holy Land is the birthplace of three great religious traditions. It is not correct for you to claim that the Scrolls were created by the Jewish people, if by that you mean that only modern day Jews have the best claim to their ownership. We all own them.

 

[Eloy]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

(COMMENT)

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination. There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians. You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles (almost to the outskirts of Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo) and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination. It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

(COMMENT)

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs. The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria (to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan). But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate.

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word.
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque
​

Most Respectfully,
R

You gave a whole list of places which you associate with particular peoples but you have a problem accepting that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in Palestine where Palestinians worship.

 

[RoccoR]

Eloy, et al,

No, I did not say that at all.

Eloy, et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

(COMMENT)

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination. There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians. You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles (almost to the outskirts of Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo) and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination. It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

(COMMENT)

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs. The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria (to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan). But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate.

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word.
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque
​

Most Respectfully,
R

You gave a whole list of places which you associate with particular peoples but you have a problem accepting that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in Palestine where Palestinians worship.

(COMMENT)

You did not answer the questions in the Posting, above.

Who maintained the Mosque?
Who restored the mosque?
Who is working on the Mosque today?
​

Would built it? Did the Arab Palestinians lift one single stone.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Eloy]

Eloy, et al,

No, I did not say that at all.

Eloy, et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

(COMMENT)

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination. There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians. You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles (almost to the outskirts of Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo) and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination. It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

(COMMENT)

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs. The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria (to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan). But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate.

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word.
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque
​

Most Respectfully,
R

You gave a whole list of places which you associate with particular peoples but you have a problem accepting that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in Palestine where Palestinians worship.

(COMMENT)

Who maintained the Mosque?
Who restored the mosque?
Who is working on the Mosque today?

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

 

[RoccoR]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, you will have to teach me here.

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

(COMMENT)

Exactly what "International Law gives special authority to Jordan over Jerusalem?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

You are perfectly welcome to follow the tenets of my religious faith (not that Christians and Muslims DO follow the tenets of the Jewish religious faith -- they do not), aka share in that tradition. It is actually AWESOME that you value the gift that G-d gave to the Jewish people and to all humanity with His Teaching or Torah (not that either Christians or Muslims DO value the gift of the Torah -- they do not.)

However, that does not give you leave to usurp and take ownership of OUR cultural heritage. The cultural heritage of each culture belongs to the culture which created it and must be under the guardianship and caretakership of that culture. The Jewish people have the ONLY claim to ownership of JEWISH historical and religious writings.

To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Shall Israel take over the guardianship of Mecca and Medina? Shall Canada take over the guardianship of Egyptian cultural heritage? Shall Japan control Stonehenge or the tribal burial grounds of the Sioux People or the sacred space of Teotihuacan?

Should Israel be in control of Al-Aqsa?! Should Israel be the custodian of Al-Aqsa?!



And as an aside, no, Islam does NOT except the legitimacy of Torah and Tanakh. Islam rejects it as corrupt and in error.

 

[Phoenall]

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

Culturally? The only things I have been able to find are a slight differentiation in the pronunciation of the <g> sound and regional differences in the embroidery patterns on women's dresses which is common to a much wider cultural area.

But this is entirely my point when it comes to "Palestinian" culture. They are attempting to usurp the Jewish culture as their own, as though being "Palestinian" is an outgrowth of being Jewish, rather than a different culture all together.

There is also a problem in pronouncing P as in Palestine, so they say Filastin instead

 

[Phoenall]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

(COMMENT)

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination. There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians. You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles (almost to the outskirts of Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo) and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination. It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

(COMMENT)

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs. The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria (to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan). But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate.

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word.
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Many people dont look at the history of the place and so forget that palestine once was much larger than what they see today. It was the whole of Israel, Jordan, West bank and gaza along with parts of Saudi arabia, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria. To comply with islamonazi propaganda the majority of palestine has been removed from the table and only that tiny part of the west bank remains as being of concern. Prior to 1917 palestine was an area on the maps designation the original lands of Israel as named by the Roman Empire. Post 1917 the arab muslims after recieving 78% of these lands demanded the remaining 22% as it was arab muslim palestine and this is where the problems arise. There was never a nation of palestine in existence, the land that the arab muslims have claimed was granted under international treaty/law to the Jeys as their national home and the UN usurped their authority when they tried to partition this land giving the arab muslims the most productive and fertile parts. A pity the arab muslims were greedy and wanted all or nothing so we have the violence we have today. The answer is for the world to beat down the arabs and put them in their place, peace treaties wont work as they are seen as temporary chances to rebuild armies. They only respond to the might is right credo as shown by how Jordan treated them and has cowed them ever since.

 

[Phoenall]

The Dead Sea Scrolls were not created by Jews in the East European shtetls.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were created by the Jewish people. What happened to the Jewish people after that time does not in any way lessen either the Jewish people nor their ties to Jewish history.

It looks like the Dead Sea Scrolls were written by a very old Jewish sect. Scholars are of the opinion that this group became extinct soon after the destruction of Herod's Temple by the Romans in 70 CE. The Christians who developed from another Jewish sect would have shared in this tradition. Modern Jews cannot therefore expect to be the sole inheritors of ancient Judaism. For this reason, people speak of the Judeo-Christian tradition. It must be borne in mind that Muslims accept the legitimacy of the Bible and share in that tradition too. The Holy Land is the birthplace of three great religious traditions. It is not correct for you to claim that the Scrolls were created by the Jewish people, if by that you mean that only modern day Jews have the best claim to their ownership. We all own them.

No evidence to support your fairy story so until you can show that "Christians" were an offshoot of this alleged sect go and blow it out your ass. The scrolls are Jewish, END OF STORY

 

[Phoenall]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, you will have to teach me here.

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

(COMMENT)

Exactly what "International Law gives special authority to Jordan over Jerusalem?

Most Respectfully,
R

Here we have another islamonazi propagandist trotting out the " international law says Israel should be nuked" stories without providing the actual International law and when it was enacted. They hope that no one will question their claims and will silently keep pushing international laws that dont exist.

 

[Phoenall]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

(COMMENT)

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination. There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians. You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles (almost to the outskirts of Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo) and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination. It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

(COMMENT)

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs. The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria (to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan). But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate.

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word.
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque
​

Most Respectfully,
R

You gave a whole list of places which you associate with particular peoples but you have a problem accepting that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in Palestine where Palestinians worship.

And you have an even bigger problem accepting that the al aqsa mosque in Jerusalem is not the one mentioned in the night journey. That one is on the road outside of Medina and is the real 3rd most holy site in islam. One thing the muslims are good at is conning the likes of you into believing the Jews are evil and should be wiped out. Look at how many times this carbuncle has been destroyed and left to rot, only to be rebuilt when it would give the muslims an edge over the rest of the world. The last time it was Jordan that covered the dome in gold leaf to make it look good from a distance, and then the arab muslims ripped the structeure apart to use as ammunition to attack non muslims with.